SSA #6 Story Discussion ** SPOILERS **
By
15bribri15,
Posted on: 2012-02-21 05:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Mr. Rogers.
Good guys, bad guys, and explosions as far as the eye can see, that's what WWD should have been. Blaze of glory, not whimper of meh. |
haha...so we needed "bay-splosions!!!"?
*you enter SSA #1.1, you die from the explosion! the end"
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There is a very fine line between a Xanatos Gambit and a Villain Sue, and Darren Wade has super-leaped across it.
| and here goes Wade doing the Xanatos Gambit trope, you complain because he does it better than Xanatos? |
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See, the thing is, Wade isn't so bad, because if you paid attention to various tips, the midnighter arcs, and his own arc, you actually -see- most of these pieces being gathered together. The only thing wrong with Wade is his costume/appearance.|
Originally Posted by Venture
There is a very fine line between a Xanatos Gambit and a Villain Sue, and Darren Wade has super-leaped across it.
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Now, me saying that still doesn't mean SSA 6 was any good. Honestly, the whole thing feels clumsy and forced. PenYin showing up as FULL GROWN (and she was always 18 folks, honest!) most powerful psychic on the planet, Sister Psyche getting killed as an "Oh, SHES ALSO DYING TOO", and the last minute "oh, btw, we barely mention him this entire arc until the last mission, but wade stole Psyche's powers too."
The villain version is apparently better, explaining the why's and how's (and also, Apparently evil borealis lives and a hint is given that psyche may have survived as well) but as a stand alone part, the blue side arc was easily the worst of the 6 yet.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
I believe that is demonstrably untrue. For every point I made, I have provided quotes from the appropriate source. When I had to speculate, I showed my reasoning. When I disagree with you, I explain why.
I'm sorry that you're taking this personally, but I don't feel you've supported your claims. I've addressed this at length. If my responses are at times vague, it's because your criticisms to my responses are sweeping and you haven't made it clear what you mean when you say something like: "At this point your arguments barely hold together under their own construction let alone continuous logic." That tells me that you don't agree with what I've put forward, but it doesn't tell me why you think that. I didn't intend my parting comment to be facetious. We clearly do have differing interpretations. The exchange grew out of the question of why another group didn't rediscover the ritual before Darren Wade. Since his Midnighter connections were integral, I didn't address that, as I still consider him more or less a Midnighter. |
You know, I paused to read this and I just shook my head increduously. You still want to 'win' some intangible point that I just don't get.
You're just doing circular arguments now, that effectively echo everything I said about you, but no...you have to try and make it about me. That's honestly really weak, by any standards. And now you say I'm taking it personally. The only thing I take personally is someone trying to weasel justifications out of an argument that they feel the moral high ground in.
Enough already. You're already proving you can't let things go, and the only reason I'm responding here now is to tell you to cut it out and that I'm putting you on ignore. This story and these kinds of circular arguments where for at least your part you want to force the concession or whatever the heck it is you want are fruitless and embarassing.
Like I said, go peddle this somewhere else, because noone's listening anymore.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Let's see:|
Originally Posted by Ogi
The Rulu-shin threat wasn't that big, they (the Midnighters, which includes non-blue members) should've beaten the pulp out of Wade (who has been stealing from them for some time now) as soon as he showed his ugly mug, the only reason my hero didn't, on my first play through, when it was first released, was because I COULDN'T TARGET HIM AS AN ENEMY.
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- I enter the Midnighters' front door. Fallen Midnighters' and Rulu-Shin all over, only ones left standing are a bunch more Rulu-Shin.
- Having cleaned up that, I press further inside, find even more fallen Midnighters' and even more not-fallen Rulu-Shin. And Percy, but, well, Percy.
- Montague is literally backed into a corner, making his last stand in the last room with his two big bruisers and nobody else with tons more Rulu-Shin on the way. Lucky for him, a random hero who happened to pick today of all days to stop by comes to his rescue.
- Rulu-Shin attack in bigger than x1 hordes, and while doing so Wade just pops in out of nowhere to help. Unless you brought in a tricked-out hero who can solo the invaders, Montague and the others have their hands full with holding back the Rulu-Shin. No time to bust a cap in Wade, who I repeat is helping save the Midnighters' from becoming the next Omega Team.
- Before the last wave attacks, Wade leaves.
Now to say that the Rulu-Shin invasion 'wasn't that very big' when they wiped out practically every Midnighter on-hand save for Montague, Kadabra, Whatserface, Mercedes, and Percy, still had plenty wandering around, and even still had a heck of a lot more in reserve for the final push? And to take a moment from that to turn and grill Wade as to why he's here and helping?
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
I'm seriously done with this.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
I'm done, I meant it and you can stew in whatever brew you think it is that gives you such an entitled opinion. Go peddle this somewhere else, please.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
Like I said, go peddle this somewhere else, because noone's listening anymore.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
Enough already. You're already proving you can't let things go, and the only reason I'm responding here now is to tell you to cut it out and that I'm putting you on ignore.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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No, not really. And I suspect you're just trolling, so...well, foolish me. I fed the troll. Hope that sustains you for the weekend.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Wanna bet?
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S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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I've stood at the back of the room and watched Montague and friends mop the floor with the incoming "hordes" of Rularu-shin. The only way Sigil or what's her name can be defeated is if she runs down the hall LIKE AN IDIOT and then SLOWLY walks back to the main room after defeating the last member of the last wave. And the only reason why THAT is a Bad MoveĀ is because her support team doesn't go with her and she leaves the healer behind. Other than that, the rest of the Midnighters (even *before* Darrin Wade shows up to "help" them) have everything COMPLETELY in hand and don't need my help (or Darrin's) at all!
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Now to say that the Rulu-Shin invasion 'wasn't that very big' when they wiped out practically every Midnighter on-hand save for Montague, Kadabra, Whatserface, Mercedes, and Percy, still had plenty wandering around, and even still had a heck of a lot more in reserve for the final push? And to take a moment from that to turn and grill Wade as to why he's here and helping?
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I think you might need to chill out for a sec, man. Take a breather and relax.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
No, not really. And I suspect you're just trolling, so...well, foolish me. I fed the troll. Hope that sustains you for the weekend.
S. |
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It's funny that I wound up defending the SSAs as much as I did in this thread, because I really feel that the third mission of the sixth arc was one of the most painfully unenjoyable experiences I've had with the game in over seven years of playing it.
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Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
And wasn't that last mission of escorting a glitchy follow UI through two Oranbega maps, fighting your way back to find a newly spawned boss, then run back fun? I downrate AE missions for that stuff.
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In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
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If I couldn't have busted a cap in his crown personally my fall-back mine field he ran through could've put a world of hurt on an elite boss.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
- Rulu-Shin attack in bigger than x1 hordes, and while doing so Wade just pops in out of nowhere to help. Unless you brought in a tricked-out hero who can solo the invaders, Montague and the others have their hands full with holding back the Rulu-Shin. No time to bust a cap in Wade, who I repeat is helping save the Midnighters' from becoming the next Omega Team.
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Wade doesn't help Midnighters. He steals from them. Has been for a loooong time.
My first thought was, "What, did Manticore not take Stunning Arrow?"
Plus, isn't a good thing I had Penny Yin, one of the most powerful psychics in the world with me? Oh, she can't do anything to stop the Psyche-Bomb from going off. Huh. So how about letting Psyche mindride Penny or grabbing her consciousness as she passed away? No? So why was she part of this arc again? Just to get her reintroduced to the players and show off her spiffy custom power set?
Statesman's death had impact. Psyche here felt redundant and a way to kick Manticore again. We already established Wade as dangerous with Statesman; this arc just felt gratuitous.
Also, that last mission was awful. Double escort on Oranbenga, with glowies, multiple areas and backtracking? Blech.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Wanna bet?
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
No, not really. And I suspect you're just trolling, so...well, foolish me. I fed the troll. Hope that sustains you for the weekend.
S. |
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Unfortunately, this gets to the writing train-wreck that is *my* pet-peeve, which is that Origin of Powers asserts canonically that everything is magic. Super-science, natural ability, and even super-technology has as its origin magic, just a higher level magic than normal magic. The Well of the Furies is, in effect, hyper-magic.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
To be honest I'm just getting tired of everything falling back to a magic "ritual". I mean, come on, think of some new plot points here.
Let's see, we've got a very specific Zeus-Incarnate-killing ritual. Or maybe it's a Marcus-Cole-Lookalike-killing ritual. Either way it's a bit of a misnomer, since it's not exactly something that can be practiced every Wednesday. Then there's the Raise Minor Character ritual, that can revive people who are long dead. How exciting! This sounds like it would be extremely useful and have tons of applications, and it was super easy to pull off too! It doesn't work on anyone who is actually important though -- only on previously unseen characters from the backstory. And of course the looks-like-healing-a-split-personality-but-really-turns-a-psychic-into-a-living-bomb ritual. Some Circle cultist must have been having a slow day to come up with that one. I'm starting to get the sense that if you want to do something in the CoH universe that is normally impossible, just make a ritual for it! Get some fairy dust, a few rocks with carvings on them, throw them in a circle, mutter some backwards Latin and voila! You can have Positron as your butler, Swan as your personal masseuse, cross dimensional barriers, and transmute Tyrant into a house plant. |
But of course, whenever you want to talk about something inexplicable, something with no real explanation, something that defies the normal rules, its going to be magic. So if you're going to kill an incarnate, you're going to use magic. If you're going to absorb someone else's powers and become an incarnate, you're going to use magic. Although Incarnate power is supposed to be beyond the five origins, anything beyond Science is magic, even if its supposed to be "beyond magic" also.
Magic is not an equal peer to the other origins. Magic is still treated by the writers as the thing beyond the others, and Origin of Powers is a reflection of the fact that the writers don't understand that saying there's something that is the common origin of science, technology, mutation, natural training, and magic is nonsensical: everything beyond science technology, mutation, and natural training *is* magic. That's the definition of magic: that which science cannot explain.
Beyond a certain point, its always going to be magic rituals, because magic is the go-to process for rule-breaking power.
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That's not what the Origin of Powers actually asserts, but it's how the current writing staff has chosen to portray it, which is a shame. I remember reading Web of Arachnos with the initial Well of Furies description (well, to the public anyway) and the feeling it gives isn't even really so much as magic, as it is, alien, or, if we want to use comic book terms.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Unfortunately, this gets to the writing train-wreck that is *my* pet-peeve, which is that Origin of Powers asserts canonically that everything is magic.
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Cosmic.
This is how it should have actually been handled, but instead, well, we're getting what we're getting.
You know, something bugged the hell out of me in SSA6 that hasn't been mentioned here. It took a while for it to settle in because of all the crap they pulled with Sister Psyche, Manticore's latest screw-up, giving Penelope Yin that atrocious costume, and the incompetence that permeates the heroic side of this plot...
It is mentioned at the end of the SSA6 that Darren Wade explicitly desires to kill you because you somehow stand in the way of his plans...
But why would he waste resources on someone he has easily outmaneuvered time and again? All he has to do is get his schemes to play out and obtain the ultimate power he desires, thereby rendering all your efforts ineffectual. Someone who has schemed for a decade should have the foresight to realize that allowing his pride to get in his way is beneath him at this stage. He has the combined abilities of two of history's most powerful heroes at his disposal - if he can't beat you, then so be it... he's got bigger fish to fry at this moment.
You should be an afterthought when compared to his ultimate objective. Instead, he is wasting valuable manpower and resources trying to defeat a hero who is significantly more powerful (or resourceful) but only barely more competent than the rest of the FP because he is still too many steps ahead for you to catch up at this stage.
Were it otherwise, then why didn't our character stop these FP clowns before they went hammering on their own toes and place themselves and the entire world in jeopardy? It's like I'm watching a bad anime where the villains are focusing all their invasion efforts on the only city on the entire planet with its own super-powered defense corps time and again thorough the use of incremental force deployment without considering the option of taking the back door and creating widespread chaos that cannot be contained. Such a tactic would ultimately defuse societal, military, and economic structure and thus render their adversaries' efforts to prevent such happenings meaningless.
Even the all-seeing Darren Wade is showing his incompetence. Isn't there anyone in this arc who has the power to make the plot move along for a reason besides "Because"? That's how a grade-schooler justifies action.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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What valuable manpower and resources? He's sent one assassin who was a generic CoT mage and summoned a minor little magical monster to fight you. Wade is worried that you might catch up to him and prevent his plan, but he's not taking any great steps to do so.|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
You should be an afterthought when compared to his ultimate objective. Instead, he is wasting valuable manpower and resources trying to defeat a hero who is significantly more powerful (or resourceful) but only barely more competent than the rest of the FP because he is still too many steps ahead for you to catch up at this stage.
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And the great part about why you're suddenly such a threat to Wade? According to him, originally, you were probably too unimportant to plan for.
Im curious, for those playing the arcs redside, have you noticed any changes due to having the "Thief of Midnight" badge? I think thats the one you get fro having run the Wade arc redside.
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I would reason that Wade was never the most popular man on the dance floor, and now that Statesman has been murdered he is going to have even fewer opportunities to rebuild his forces. Everyone with an ear turned to the situation knows Darren Wade now. He has reached breakout capacity. That said, one would think that the decision to waste a perfectly loyal pawn would give one pause considering how many he has already lost. It's a very sloppy tactical decision, and a sign of wastefulness.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
What valuable manpower and resources? He's sent one assassin who was a generic CoT mage and summoned a minor little magical monster to fight you. Wade is worried that you might catch up to him and prevent his plan, but he's not taking any great steps to do so.
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It's not the value in the pawn itself that troubles me, but that he would waste his resources and attention in the first place. There's no reason at all that he should feel threatened by you in the grand scheme of things, since whether or not you are a physical match for him is irrelevant.
Speaking of Stateman's death: I will give the Death of Superman story one thing - it took into consideration Superman's very strength of influence over the rest of humanity. When he died, crime rates soared as the criminal underworld suddenly felt empowered without the living symbol of truth and justice bearing down on them. We have heard of no such change in the CoX universe, as if grief was the only thing that resulted from Statesman's fall.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Again, what losses has Wade actually taken? Malaise KNEW he was going to die, and did it all specifically so he could take down Sister Psyche in the process. Wade just took advantage of something Malaise already wanted. |
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
I would reason that Wade was never the most popular man on the dance floor, and now that Statesman has been murdered he is going to have even fewer opportunities to rebuild his forces. Everyone with an ear turned to the situation knows Darren Wade now. He has reached breakout capacity. That said, one would think that the decision to waste another loyal pawn would give one pause considering how many he has already lost. It's sloppy, and a sign of wastefulness.
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And then there's a magical summoned disposable aspect. Huge loss there.
And then there's generic female CoT mage that is completely unnotable at all except for being a bag of hp for the player to beat on.
Which, she had to be. Having her be an interesting character or even a reuse of Echidna, which would have made sense, would have detracted from the Penelope Yin action hour, which is what SSA6 basically was.
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Should he run out of minions, pray tell who will fetch him his wine glass for the climactic showdown in SSA7?|
Originally Posted by Haetron
Again, what losses has Wade actually taken? Malaise KNEW he was going to die, and did it all specifically so he could take down Sister Psyche in the process. Wade just took advantage of something Malaise already wanted.
And then there's a magical summoned disposable aspect. Huge loss there. And then there's generic female CoT mage that is completely unnotable at all except for being a bag of hp for the player to beat on. Which, she had to be. Having her be an interesting character or even a reuse of Echidna, which would have made sense, would have detracted from the Penelope Yin action hour, which is what SSA6 basically was. |
But since we're naming names - let's also not rule out the PC Villains, our favorite new Rularuu cult, and Johnny (from SSA4).
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Weeell, Lord Recluse used a machine and super-science to steal Statesman's powers in his Strike Force. As far as I could tell anyway.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Beyond a certain point, its always going to be magic rituals, because magic is the go-to process for rule-breaking power.
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If memory serves, I'm sure that machine was used as a tuning focus for some kind of magical effect. Aeon rants for a while about how he combined magic and technology into the Grandville web right before that mission.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Weeell, Lord Recluse used a machine and super-science to steal Statesman's powers in his Strike Force. As far as I could tell anyway.
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This is subsequently followed by a successful Wisdom check, at which point he begs you to destroy it before it siphons his Super Intelligence.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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SSA 1: Partial success for Wade. He learned a little more about the functioning of the Obelisk.|
Originally Posted by Venture
There is a very fine line between a Xanatos Gambit and a Villain Sue, and Darren Wade has super-leaped across it.
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SSA 2: Partial success for Wade. He learned a little more about the functioning of the Obelisk and got some artifacts on his way out.
SSA 3: Almost complete success for Wade. I can't think of any way it could have gone much better for him.
SSA 4: Hard to say. I'll call this one a partial success for Wade. It's not entirely clear if he wanted to Malaise to fail or if this was his fallback plan. I don't agree with the Xanatos criticisms here on the forum (and they're a big reason why I delurked after so long), but I do think it's unrealistic (in this world of jet-powered apes and time travel) that he could have predicted the one specific action of absorbing the Dirge of Chaos.
SSA 5: Almost complete success for Wade. His plan to kill Statesman and steal his powers was an unqualified success, but he fails to kill the PC.
SSA 6: Apparently another ambiguous victory but... Tyrka/AB is on the loose and gunning for him and Wade again failed to kill the PC and there may be well more going on than we know. The seeds of his defeat have probably been planted here, even though he seems to get everything he wants. I'm going to withhold judgement until we get the last one.
So, by my reckoning, two partial wins, two clear wins, and two too close to call.
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
The devs might get a bye with that, if the rest of the storyline didn't also have Wade outperforming David Xanatos on his best day.
Since when was it said, that other characters couldn't out perform the originator of a trope?
Are CoH characters suppossed to be inferior to every other character of fiction because they didn't come first?
Now not saying the story is good or bad. I will say I think they could use some tweaks and I for sure didn't like how they just got rid of Statesman and Sister Psyche.
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