SSA #6 Story Discussion ** SPOILERS **

I finally played the hero arc myself and can confirm it is well and truly Teh Suq.

I also think Psyche's death is established well enough that any sudden reversal in the last act would constitute cheating the audience.

Some notes after catching up a bit on the discussion:

• I fully support Doctor_Minerva's comments. The holes in the story are not vast... but the story segments are suffering from feeling rushed. (Personally, I think Stateman's death may have been a bait and switch to let Psyche's surprise us. I expect a dramatic and interesting WWD#7.)
• Dark_Respite's script suggestion = outstanding.
• The *hroob*y affair - hilarious.

This is a bit of a lengthy reply, but you did accuse me of "cherry-picking" the points I addressed. That was done mostly to avoid a huge post like this, but I'm not going to truncate as I did before in the interest of completeness.

OZ: Oh come on! Seriously? You come out and say I'm interpreting facts and what do you do? YOU SPECULATE in the same manner you accuse me of doing! You're not even trying to debate a point here, you're deliberately being argumentative and speculative without anything to support your argument. I cited the direct points from the story and what was said without assumption. Unless you are then going to argue that I shouldn't take what's being said at face value for interpretation's sake?

Reply: No. I'm afraid that's not what you did. I don't see any other way to read your statement: "The problem is that his dialogue, his mannerisms and his approach speaks of a calm and collected individual. Right there you have someone who's level-headed and capable of assessing a situation" other than to say that you are giving me your interpretation of what you saw. It might be right, it might be wrong, but it's not an unbiased account of what occurred.

Quoted Minerva: It's not unreasonable to assume that he would know that Wade is an ex-Midnighter, but presumably some of Stateman's information gathering involved busting heads in Wade's stomping grounds and if Wade was as fastidious as he was with his other prep work, he would have at least had some influence over the information that did get to Statesman. This is speculation on my part, but I don't think it's altogether unreasonable.

I don't think we can connect him to any rituals at this point. (From the sound effect, Alexis was executed by a gunshot. Wade needed her blood and there were the candles and the accessories that go along with a ritual, but I don't think there was one actually performed.) Statesman certainly can't, We don't know how much he knows, but one thing we do know for certain is that even by the end of WWD 4, Statesman didn't know who was behind everything.

("Numina: Statesman is going to go straight for Wade, when he finds out he's behind all of this.")

OZ: I'm sorry, but you just proved the opposite.

Reply: Perhaps I was unclear, so to clarify, Statesman vanished somewhere between WWD 3 and WWD 4. Miss Liberty says he took off to clear his head after Ms. Liberty's funeral. At the end of WWD 4, Positron states that Statesman is still incommunicado. Numina states that Statesman does not at this point know that Wade was behind things, but he will go directly to him when he learns this.

OZ: Statesman is going to go straight for Wade when he finds out he's behind all of this, which is what he does. How else does he know where to go to confront him? How else does he know to call him by name?

We don't know. We know that Statesman is not in Paragon, otherwise the Phalanx would have seen him. If he's looking for Wade, the logical place to start would be the Rogue Isles. This is in fact, speculation, but I do think it's a pretty reasonable on that doesn't require a lot of assumptions.

OZ: Are you seriously putting up a strawman argument just to argue at this point? Every time you say something isn't so, you then add something that says it is. This isn't speculation, this isn't wild rampant unfounded guesswork, this is what is on screen, in text. And then, and THEN, you speculate, unfounded, with absolutely no evidence to support you, that Wade engineers the gathering of said information.

Reply: We hear about Statesman looking for Wade, and then, in the next arc, we have Statesman finding him. "Engineers" might be overstating it, but if his plan depended on Statesman finding him, then I do think he would have left some clues pointing in that direction. I don't think it matters that much though.

Quoted Minerva: Okay, I'll bite. Who else would research (the Incarnate killing ritual)? Access to Cimerora seems to be integral, so that eliminates everyone but, who? The Fifth Column, Malta, and kinda sorta Ghost Widow? With that in mind, I don't think its at all that unreasonable that nobody has done this before.

OZ: Are you being truly disingenuous here? The Circle of Thorns ring any bells? Those guys who live under the city and practice arcane and ancient rituals going back thousands of years? The Mu? The Midnighters? How many magical factions with established long histories would you like me to cite here that have every reasonable ability and resource to do this?

Again, you're basing your entire supposition about Wade on the notion that 'noone has done this before' when it's clear that they have. Wade's information is based on something that happened a thousand years ago. This is not his original work. This is not his original ritual. SOMEONE ELSE DID IT. Which means entirely reasonably that someone else could have that information.

Reply: They don't have any presence in Cimerora, though. He rediscovered Sister Airlia's ritual, which does imply a connection to Cimerora as a starting point, which is something those other mystical groups lack.

Quoted Minerva: I don't think he would know that (Wade tried to Steal Synapse's powers) either. A ghost, a Lost and some igneous (walk into a bar) teamed up, they did steal Synapse's power for a while, but then their obelisk blew up and it seemed to be the end of it. Even if you happen to know that Wade exists at this point, there's nothing to connect him to this if you don't have knowledge of the cut scene. If you look at the clues that pop up in your window, you'll see that that the image of a distant land is not the scene in the Rogue Isles, but rather:

Look at the high level red side arcs. It's pretty rare when you don't kick the stuffing out of a Freedom Phalanx member. I don't think that Synapse's situation would set off any alarm bells. It's just the kind of thing that happens from time to time.

Oz: OH COME ON. This is getting beyond facetious. You're not even using any supported facts or anything now, you're just saying 'it's the kind of thing that happens from time to time' and that is your defence of that point?

Reply: I didn't list the specific arcs, but can we accept as given that in the plurality of redside arcs above level 35 or so, you're probably going to be beating on a name brand hero for the final mission, be they a Vindicator or Phalanxer? That was my point, and I'm sorry if it was unclear. So the attack on Synapse is not in itself unusual.

Oz: I wasn't even referring to the player character, I'm referring to Statesman. You're very conveniently avoiding the point and the assertion and trying to make another which fits the interpretation that you personally want to attribute to it without once, and I have given you every opportunity and even have gone so far as to put forward a supported argument, doing the same. Not once.

Reply: I thought I made it clear, but to make it explicit, I would sum up my argument as, "Statesman did not act unreasonably when confronting Darren Wade."

Oz: You're even arguing that despite the fact that Statesman turns up, knowing who Wade is and what he's done and somehow doesn't know from either conferring with Synapse or the player character or even the Midnighters (which are all totally reasonable given the situation of the attacks) is reasonable? Does this entire situation happen in a vacuum? Does this happen in some way that the characters involved are totally unaware (considering there is media coverage from the redside arcs) of events transpiring around them?

Reply: What would Synapse tell him? "One of the Lost stole my powers, but then a hero showed up and beat him up and an obelisk blew up and I got them back?"

What would the Midnighters tell him? They don't know he was behind events until WWD 4, by which time Statesman was incommunicado.

Quoted Minerva: I think you're attributing too much knowledge to Statesman here. What can we prove that he knows? He knows that Wade was absolutely involved in the death of Ms. Liberty. That's it. It's possible, even probably that he knows more, but keep in mind that his main goal was finding his daughter's murderer. Delving into his past was secondary.

Did Wade present himself as a two-bit dabbler who bungled a ritual, got scared and executed the sacrifice in a panic, then fled to Cimerora, perhaps to tap some hidden reservoir of power? Possibly. There's no evidence for this, but there's no evidence against it either, which actually puts it one up on the theory where he was "goading" Statesman into a confrontation, as he's very clearly running from him in prior to springing the trap.

Oz: I'm seriously done with this. You keep pulling out this strawman argument along with doing precisely what you accuse me of doing, which is randomly speculating as to what the character is doing.

Reply: That bit was kind of a joke, and I apologize for not making that clear.

Oz: 'Delving into his past was secondary?' HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? Give me PROOF. Give me supporting evidence in the text that supports this theory. I gave mine. PONY UP.

Reply: Numina does say that Statesman will go directly for Wade and the Phalanx seems to accept this. But really, he's not going to stop for a background check and an interview with Wade's kindergarten teacher once he knows he's got the location.

Quoted Minerva: Where? (Wade) provides some token assistance in the Midnighter Club and that's the first, last and only time we see him do anything until that scene on the mountaintop.

Oz: So based on that, he's not involved. At all. Is that what you're saying?

No. You didn't quote the section to which I was replying. You said, "Wade is demonstrably proving he's got more power than previously known" and I was disputing that.

Oz: Minerva, I've argued better topics with high school students. For every supposed point you put forward, you either contradict yourself or actively avoid and cherry pick what you think you can actively argue either because you can't, or because you think some alternative avenue will prove you right.

Reply: I didn't mean to cherry pick, but I do believe you are proceeding from a flawed premise, and if there was anything I didn't address, it was because I thought that I had addressed the arguments underlaying it already.

Oz: I refute you and counter-argue and all I get is this waffle that you don't quote, you don't support and most importantly, you assume and grossly so to try and prove your point. You make assumptions based on nothing that we see occur and argue that is somehow a salient and relevant point. I have, and would continue (but I see now it's becoming pointless) on what's seen and follow that through to a logical and consistent conclusion.

You choose to not do and even just actively dodge and weave without any supportive evidence. Unless you want to pony up as I said before, then I'm really seriously done talking to you.

Reply: I, of course, have a different interpretation of our exchange.

I am disappointed that my big hero moment saving Shalice's bacon in SSA 1.4 may have been all for naught. But then she's survived terminal cases of death before, so who really knows until next month or beyond?

Which is why I, for one, still like and anticipate the SSA's. I was sold on spending waaaaaaaaay too much money on a game in a galaxy far away because it would have awesome stories. I stopped playing that game last month when (among other criticisms) said story turned out to be composed mainly of warmed over and easily forseen plot twists. I give Paragon credit: The SSAs have kept me intrigued and actually curious as to what comes next.

Doctor Minerva,

<totally snipped>

I'm going to say this one last time. You don't refute anything with facts, you put up supposition and theory without basis and you argue motivation solely on speculation.

That facetious little last comment about different interpretations is insulting to not only your intelligence, but mine. You've not once supported any of your arguments outside of supposition and assumption. I've had at least the decency to quote and not put up half-hearted theories that go along the lines that because it happens in one arc, it somehow translates as consistent with another.

At this point your arguments barely hold together under their own construction let alone continuous logic. You only think it's worth replying in any detail when I've called you out on it. You never once spelt out your arguments, you even tried to make some ridiculous joke. Any point I bring up, you just dodge and weave and even just ignore with yet more contradictory statements and most of your replies you answer with something completely unrelated to the point.

If I want to argue consistency, I can say right here you are not. Your points change, continually. Your arguments are somehow 'unclear' when you've had ample time to outline them. Your reasoning proceeds from a place that you yourself accuse me of having. You hold double standards on what you consider your 'right' interpretation and my 'wrong' when that has never been the point of the discussion. You want to 'win' something. Knock yourself out, you've won. Have an internets.

I'm done, I meant it and you can stew in whatever brew you think it is that gives you such an entitled opinion. Go peddle this somewhere else, please.

EDIT: Just one little irksome thing....THE MIDNIGHTERS are your LINK to Cimerora. They have a PRESENCE. But of course, far be it from me to cite fact and not conveniently ignore that. Give me a break...

S.

The Signature Story Arcs (heroside, at least, I have not tried the villain ones yet) seem aimed at satisfying the writers more than the players.

I like the idea of regular, unique arcs but maybe in the future they can focus it on the deeds and actions of the player characters rather than the game's. It almost felt like my character was simply an observer in SSA #6. "Bye, Psyche, nice knowin' ya!"

Also, the correct title of this SSA should have been WHO WON'T DIE?