SSA #6 Story Discussion ** SPOILERS **
By
15bribri15,
Posted on: 2012-02-21 05:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
I largely agree with this.|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
You know, something bugged the hell out of me in SSA6 that hasn't been mentioned here. It took a while for it to settle in because of all the crap they pulled with Sister Psyche, Manticore's latest screw-up, giving Penelope Yin that atrocious costume, and the incompetence that permeates the heroic side of this plot...
It is mentioned at the end of the SSA6 that Darren Wade explicitly desires to kill you because you somehow stand in the way of his plans... But why would he waste resources on someone he has easily outmaneuvered time and again? All he has to do is get his schemes to play out and obtain the ultimate power he desires, thereby rendering all your efforts ineffectual. Someone who has schemed for a decade should have the foresight to realize that allowing his pride to get in his way is beneath him at this stage. He has the combined abilities of two of history's most powerful heroes at his disposal - if he can't beat you, then so be it... he's got bigger fish to fry at this moment. |
My answer would be that he hasn't, as far as we know, been required to deal with something for which he hasn't planned well in advance, and plenty of people are good with long term planning, but terrible when it comes to improvisation. Or he might have tunnel vision and can't see beyond the REAL ULTIMATE POWER waiting for him at the end of his plot. I do think the Darren Wade as a wheels-within-wheels mastermind is largely a construct of the forums, and it's not as well supported by the stories as it is around here, and Darren Wade failing to take something he couldn't predict into account doesn't contradict what has been established.
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
Quote:
Not even really that, either. The Spring Fling content and, as far as I know, the Dark Astoria content barely mention his death, the impact he had, or the grieving of others. We just get a half-***** "Let's get Recluse laid" arc, given out by his own granddaughter no less, and a mention that Nemesis is coming out of nowhere to raid Portal Corp in SSA6. Hell, even half of the player community is celebrating his death. The world actually won't change until I23. They planned his death and the impact it'll have on the world potentially 5-6 months apart. Not very good planning on Paragon Studios' part.
|
Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
Speaking of Stateman's death: I will give the Death of Superman story one thing - it took into consideration Superman's very strength of influence over the rest of humanity. When he died, crime rates soared as the criminal underworld suddenly felt empowered without the living symbol of truth and justice bearing down on them. We have heard of no such change in the CoX universe, as if grief was the only thing that resulted from Statesman's fall.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Hm... pointing out broken pledges is now trolling. Who knew?
|
And you're Arbiter Reasonable, I presume. Excuse me officer.....
Relax, I've moved on. S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Having taken a couple of steps away from the story as a whole presented so far, and ending what I think could've simply devolved into a slanging match (at least on my part), and yes I'll apologise to Doctor Minerva even if my essential sentiments on our disagreements remain the same.
The tone and aggressiveness of my statements weren't really called for and I fortunately saw that before crossing a line I know I shouldn't. Yes, I did respond more than I should've and that's my fault. I'm passionate when I argue and that is a strength as well as a weakness. But to argue further would be pointless and more importantly fruitless, because the end result was agreeing to disagree.
But I took the time today to sit down with a friend who doesn't play the game and explained in the best detail that I could (I intend to find and show the most relevant cutscenes to them) about the story. I was sure not to bias the account, but I did keep the in-depth details to a minimum because it'd be impossible to explain the nuances of all the characters and all the background to someone without just overwhelming them with detail.
What I did try and focus on was the Who Will Die story, filling in answers to questions as best as I was able. And I kid you not, as soon as I brought up Statesman walking into Wade's trap (I didn't phrase it like that, mind you), and Manticore killing Psyche, I was hit with questions as to why and how these things happened.
My only honest answer was that they did, and I couldn't stop either of them. Now, this friend is a very close friend and is going to call me out on anything that I'm doing stupidly and is going to be honest with me. I've also run stories for them for over a decade in tabletop and we discuss writing and a lot of other things regularly.
Their response was I felt, telling. The first was that if I wasn't going to be there for the pivotal events, and I was removed from them by event or circumstance, then why did I need to be there? The story was going to play out regardless of my involvement in the events. They even said that it could be any character filling that role and it still wouldn't matter, you may as well be reading a book.
The second, though not related to MMO's (they don't play any, so I felt I had a slightly more objective point of view of things being related to me) was that if I'd done anything like that in our tabletop games, I would've been crucified. It's fine, they said, if you want an event to go a certain way, but in order to make it interactive and make you feel a part of them, you need to have a sense that you're shaping that experience, one way or the other.
They also commented on the characters of Statesman and Psyche, but I think it'd be unfair to repeat what they said because this was their introduction to them. But we've both played superhero tabletop games and maybe it's our experience in them or what we feel we learned as players, but we both felt that there would've been more planning and cautiousness if these things were happening to us.
I need to stress here we weren't talking as if we were the know-it-alls of experienced superherodom, but more as players. My friend made me laugh when they said, 'you know if we were playing this, we would've come up with something completely unexpected and you would've had to deal with it, because we never do anything like we should.'
I guess that's more at the heart of what I think about these stories, totally and firmly aside what I may or may not think about the writing or the characterisation or anything else. I've never really felt involved in this story, as if I was an interchangeable cipher that sort of just bears witness to things as they happen. These things feel predestined and that's all there is to it.
I'm not saying that every arc in the game gives you total freedom to input what you want, but the very best in these games I feel do. You become invested emotionally and personally; I think the Doppleganger arcs where you meet your alternate self do that and they touched me a lot. Sometimes you can write sort of generically and yet personalise it at the same time, and I really play for those moments a lot, because I love story more than anything else in the game.
This is the standard I personally feel I've come to expect with City of Heroes, and when I encounter stories like this where I personally feel this just doesn't happen, I do get passionate. I do get angry. And I do these things because I do care a lot for this game and what it's given me. And to seemingly lower the bar and have the game not care about me when it's done so consistently in the past stings.
That's the core of my feelings here. It's also the core of any statement I now want to make about these stories. It was good, really good to step back as a player and have fresh eyes look at things with me, because it distilled down hyperbole, argument and justification on my part to what my true concerns were.
And hopefully that makes more cohesive sense than some of my recent posts.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Thanks for reaching out to me. I was enjoying the exchange and was sorry that it seemed to be at an end. Let me put my thoughts in order and I'll respond with greater detail later.
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
Having finally got around to catching up on the last 3 parts of the SSA, I can finally say that the stupid is really off the meter, now.
Come on devs, the Phalanx don't deserve to be treated like this! Seriously... If they were REALLY this utterly lame, how the hell were they the premiére hero group for so long?
As for Penny. She's cute enough, and has impressive attacks, but her pathing code is TERRIBLE! I was constantly losing her and having to run back through huge tracts of Oranbega to find the dozy bint all because, after failing to just go around the corner to where I was, she decided to just peg it all the way back the other way...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
Your "reckoning" is a transparent apologetic. Oz is correct: Wade has not made a single misstep the whole way. Absolutely everything has gone according to his plan, even things he had no control over whatsoever. I keep coming back to this, but then the essay in question is in my stack of The Seven Books That Contain Everything You Really Need to Know:| So, by my reckoning, two partial wins, two clear wins, and two too close to call. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Raymond Chandler
There is one of Dorothy Sayers in which a man is murdered alone at night in his house by a mechanically released weight which works because he always turns the radio on at just such a moment, always stands in just such a position in front of it, and always bends over just so far. A couple of inches either way and the customers would get a rain check. This is what is vulgarly known as having God sit in your lap; a murderer who needs that much help from Providence must be in the wrong business.
|
Quote:
| The second, though not related to MMO's (they don't play any, so I felt I had a slightly more objective point of view of things being related to me) was that if I'd done anything like that in our tabletop games, I would've been crucified. It's fine, they said, if you want an event to go a certain way, but in order to make it interactive and make you feel a part of them, you need to have a sense that you're shaping that experience, one way or the other. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Really, sort of a non-sequitur here but reading what you said made me realize why Malaise was doing what he did. It was revenge on Psyche for brainwashing him to be 'good'.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
Again, what losses has Wade actually taken? Malaise KNEW he was going to die, and did it all specifically so he could take down Sister Psyche in the process. Wade just took advantage of something Malaise already wanted.
|
I'm sort of embarrassed it took this long for it to just click.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
Quote:
Le Sigh.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Your "reckoning" is a transparent apologetic.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Venture
Oz is correct: Wade has not made a single misstep the whole way.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Venture
Absolutely everything has gone according to his plan, even things he had no control over whatsoever.
|
I don't think we have enough knowledge to assert that things have gone exactly according to his plan, as we're not privy to the details of his plan. Yes, he certainly seems better off in terms of both knowledge and power with each succeeding installment, and he's certainly getting at the very least, most of what he wants, but I think your conclusion is overbroad based on the information we have at this time.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Venture
Had I tried something like this for any group I GMed for, including the 10-year-olds I was introducing to the hobby, they'd have eaten Wade for lunch unless I invoked a level of railroading roughly equivalent to building a mag-lev supersonic bullet train running through my living room.
|
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
Quote:
Evidently, because he knew they were a bunch of incompetent boobs who wouldn't just shoot him on sight.| Hey, so why did he show his face to the Midnighter's in SSA2? Wouldn't it have been smarter not to do it? |
Quote:
| Really? So when he summoned the Aspect of Ruladak, it killed you and you went to the hospital and then quit the Task Force? |
Quote:
| Yes, and I'm sure the SSAs would be terrible as an interpretive dance too. Stories have to be tailored to their medium. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
No, I'm not. I'm making a point. |
Originally Posted by Venture
Now you're just being silly.
|
Wade tried to kill the PC. He was unsuccessful.
I'm not disputing the fact that SSAs have some issues, sometimes serious ones (Issue 4 was a huge stretch with Wade knowing Psyche would swallow the Dirge, Issue 6 was a painful, padded slog), but I don't think it helps when these issues are distorted and exaggerated beyond recognition. If you're going to criticize the arcs, criticize them for what they actually contain.
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
Quote:
Or couldn't shoot him on sight no matter how much we wanted to even without knowing what was going to happen in later WWDs.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Evidently, because he knew they were a bunch of incompetent boobs who wouldn't just shoot him on sight.
|
My first thought (blueside) on seeing Wade in #2 was "that's the Rularu nut from the isles, why can't I target him?". Not, "oh, here's someone coming to help (after I already have things under control...), thank you mysterious stranger".
Well, I'm glad to have this one off my Bucket List - Now I needn't ever run it again.
Ran it (finally) on one of my Blasters last night - dreadful, abysmal and mindlessly
annoying are how I'd describe it - and I'm not even talking about the writing
and plot (such as they are).
The back & forth escort, using my stealthed toon, leading a moron who reputedly can
read minds but can't find me 50 ft away from her was enough to pull my hair out.
Honestly, I'm GLAD the pyschic ditz is dead - I was about ready to kill her myself.
Even Penelope Yin got stuck a few times and needed to be retrieved. Gah!
And Tyrka? Bah. It took longer to get to her than it did to kill her...
TerriBad...
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
I'm going to agree with Raymond Chandler via Venture on this one. When you strip away everything else, you end up with the climax of Wade's plan hinging on Marcus Cole walking into the trap unaided, unprepared, and unsuspecting.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
I don't think we have enough knowledge to assert that things have gone exactly according to his plan, as we're not privy to the details of his plan. Yes, he certainly seems better off in terms of both knowledge and power with each succeeding installment, and he's certainly getting at the very least, most of what he wants, but I think your conclusion is overbroad based on the information we have at this time. . |
That's a whole lot of "uns" to be banking on. I read Robin Laws' _The Freedom Phalanx_ novel, so I am well acquainted with the characterization of Statesman as this guy who handles his grief by going off and mooning over it alone (a characterization that is mostly lost on players who did not read the novel). We're supposed to count on that knowledge as some kind of justification for Wade's ability to count on that list of "uns".
I just don't buy it, personally. What I see is that the SSA author(s) took a single plot element from a novel that was tied to a seminal event in Statesman's life and treated it as if it's some kind of deep-seated character flaw that anybody can count on triggering if they reproduce those circumstances.
We're supposed to believe that Wade deliberately killed Alexis when it wasn't really necessary to achieve his ends (he just needed a sample of her blood), because doing so put Marcus exactly into the frame of mind that would lead him to confront Wade alone and unprepared by virtue of letting his passion and his grief override his common sense and decades of experience. We're supposed to believe that Marcus reacted EXACTLY as Wade expected him to right down the line, right up to facing him without any kind of backup and Wade even predicted that any such backup that did exist would be some indie hero who could be distracted into wasting time searching his lair, instead of being the rest of the Phalanx who would be frantically searching for Marcus and doing everything in their considerable power to find and help him in his hour of need.
The whole thing is just patently unbelievable, and it doesn't help that when Marcus does show up that he appears to be calm, cool, and collected; anything BUT storming in with all guns blazing and tricked by his fury and grief into doing something foolish.
Quote:
You make that sound as if there was some possible outcome where he COULD be successful. That's game mechanics. |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Minerva
No, I'm not. I'm making a point.
Wade tried to kill the PC. He was unsuccessful. |
As it stands, from a pure story standpoint, my Ill/Rad controller was totally mystified as to why Wade buggered out and summoned Ruladek to finish the fight for him. No, seriously. I still don't get it. Wade was winning the fight as far as I could see. One minute he's kicking my hero's butt, the other he's all "Well, ta ta, we'll finish this another time. Meet my friend Ruladek the Ravager."
As far as Ruladek, I didn't quit the task force but if Ruladek was "real" then he'd have won the fight too. I beat him in the end but there were several KO's and couple of trips to the infirmary that took place before he got dispelled back to the Shadow Shard or wherever it is that he normally hangs out. That was game mechanics, not story plotting. I essentially had the same script immunity that Wade has, so it left me scratching my head in puzzlement when my contact told me that I'm clearly the only thing that Wade fears. If he's afraid of me, then it says bad things about the rest of the hero community.
Wade has been planning this for 10 years. He's had 70 years of "how does Statesman react to things" observations to work with.
States did the exact same thing when anyone important in his life has died. He goes into seclusion. By painting a target on himself that was the only way Wade even had to draw him out otherwise States would have been all Supermaning it and floating in space somewhere. Wade systematically removed all the backup from the Phalanx that would be able and brash enough to hunt down States and intrude on his grief with a "Hey suck it up princess" speech.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
Quote:
No. You're generalizing from one example, which is exactly what the SSA author did. You don't really have any clue how Statesman handles anybody's death because you've only seen him do it once when Monica died, and that was his beloved wife of some fifty years or so.|
Originally Posted by bpphantom
Wade has been planning this for 10 years. He's had 70 years of "how does Statesman react to things" observations to work with.
States did the exact same thing when anyone important in his life has died. He goes into seclusion. |
Even if that IS some kind of repeatable trigger, it's only the catalyst that puts Statesman out in solitude while he deals with his grief. There's simply no way that you can also count on him acting on his grief alone against the perpetrator and doing so without any preparation, never mind counting on him hiding himself so well that a supergroup that included some of the world's leading scientists, psychics and magicians couldn't find him and go to his aid.
It just buggers belief in my opinion.
Quote:
This statement is factually correct but contextually meaningless, making it nothing more than cut-rate sophistry.| Wade tried to kill the PC. He was unsuccessful. |
Edit: just to reiterate, the question isn't whether or not you can spin the details. You always can; go go gadget Quine-Duhem Thesis. The point is that you need to. On its face the story is abject garbage. Post hoc justifications are irrelevant.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Quote:
Perhaps I'm missing your point. So explain it to me in small words. You said that "Absolutely everything has gone according to his plan, even things he had no control over whatsoever." I pointed out that this was certainly not the case, because he by now has twice failed to kill the PC, and one can assume that this is not according his plan.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
This statement is factually correct but contextually meaningless, making it nothing more than cut-rate sophistry.
Edit: just to reiterate, the question isn't whether or not you can spin the details. You always can; go go gadget Quine-Duhem Thesis. The point is that you need to. On its face the story is abject garbage. Post hoc justifications are irrelevant. |
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
Quote:
It's possible to fail an arc, and I don't think it would make for a satisfying story, but the mechanics exist to support the option.
|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
You make that sound as if there was some possible outcome where he COULD be successful. That's game mechanics.
|
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.
Quote:
It's not even part of "his plan", it's not part of the storyline that everyone is complaining about and you know it, which is why this entire avenue of approach is disingenuous at best.
| I pointed out that this was certainly not the case, because he by now has twice failed to kill the PC, and one can assume that this is not according his plan. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
The only thing that really bothered me about this one was how the "trap" is sprung without ANY warning.
Really? As paranoid as we should be at this point, we don't check for ANYTHING? Manticore doesn't, either!? What the Hell?
Then you defeat Wade's cohort and suddenly, BAM, Psyche's freaking and the world's coming to an end.
My Hero: "I freaking knew it..."
Still, we don't know how this is going to truly end. I just hope the last arc is longer than a couple or a few missions. Tell some more story here, don't just slap us into the situation anymore, dragging us by the seat of our pants by a Concord. It's about time we started wising up if we hope to win this. Enough blood is in the streets.
----------
Though, really, I'm wondering if we're just reeling from emotional whiplash. We went from a relatively sweet lovestory (well, as much as Recluse and his chief assassin Red Widow can love each other...; did we ever get word if Ghost Widow's patron arc is going to change because of that?) to BAM! DEATH! (Devs: "bwahahahahahahahaaaa!"). It can certainly be disorienting.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Quote:
I really have the feeling that Manticore and Sister Psyche went into it KNOWING it for the trap it was. They didn't bring anyone else like Numina or anyone knowing about magic stuff to help, or Penny or Aurora as psychic backup to help if needed. It seems careless, but I'm betting that they did that because of the 'deep bond' Manticore and Psyche share (which would allow her to keep it private from the Shalice shard in her mind too) and couldn't tell anyone else their plan. This wouldn't be the first time this has happened.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
The only thing that really bothered me about this one was how the "trap" is sprung without ANY warning.
Really? As paranoid as we should be at this point, we don't check for ANYTHING? Manticore doesn't, either!? What the Hell? Then you defeat Wade's cohort and suddenly, BAM, Psyche's freaking and the world's coming to an end. My Hero: "I freaking knew it..." Still, we don't know how this is going to truly end. I just hope the last arc is longer than a couple or a few missions. Tell some more story here, don't just slap us into the situation anymore, dragging us by the seat of our pants by a Concord. It's about time we started wising up if we hope to win this. Enough blood is in the streets. ---------- Though, really, I'm wondering if we're just reeling from emotional whiplash. We went from a relatively sweet lovestory (well, as much as Recluse and his chief assassin Red Widow can love each other...; did we ever get word if Ghost Widow's patron arc is going to change because of that?) to BAM! DEATH! (Devs: "bwahahahahahahahaaaa!"). It can certainly be disorienting. |
If I were writing it, Manti and Psyche just gave us the key to beating Wade. Sister Psyche's power is her mind (and remember her ability to mind-ride as well). I'm betting Wade got more than just her power, he got her consciousness hiding in his head too, so she's not really dead. She threw the Shalice shard out of her mind, not to save her, but to keep her from interfering (and because she had the opportunity with her boosted mental power). This will be revealed in the last part of the arc where she springs the trap and mind-rides Wade enough to weaken him so the heroes can take him out.
That's my theory anyway. Otherwise, yeah, the way that all went down was pretty dumb.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
Quote:
Y'know, I'll laugh if the Well turns out to be some kind of cyborg computer with sigils inscripted on it constructed by ancient aliens and seeded through the universe. That'd probably end the magic accusations.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Unfortunately, this gets to the writing train-wreck that is *my* pet-peeve, which is that Origin of Powers asserts canonically that everything is magic. Super-science, natural ability, and even super-technology has as its origin magic, just a higher level magic than normal magic. The Well of the Furies is, in effect, hyper-magic.
|
In Camazotz all are equal. Everybody is the same as everybody else.