AT's, their desirability and usefulness in teams
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-01-21 21:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Yes, this is clearly not a personal attack|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Yeees. Disagreeing with you = "personal attacks" from people who "have no clue and are simply saying what they think they should say". Couldn't POSSIBLY be that you're, I don't know...WRONG.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
Wow. Made an idiot of yourself on the first one! Good job!
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I assume that the posters on this board are not childish, I therefore assume that every personal attack or other content free comment is an acknowledgement that I am right and the poster simply does not want to admit it.
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Nitpicking exact wording. NO! You're not trolling at all!
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Honestly, you lost all credibility when you claimed that I said VEATS are next to worthless. I said nothing like that.
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Quote:
Observation of fact, more like.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Yes, this is clearly not a personal attack
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| Personal attacks are not a sign of confidence in your position, they are a sign of either childishness or knowing your position is wrong and trying to distract from that. |
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yes, nitpicking exact wording like the difference between "not useful" and "useful".|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Nitpicking exact wording. NO! You're not trolling at all!
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as to your continue attacks on me:
"Trolling is defined as deliberately posting derogatory, inflammatory comments/threads in order to bait other users into responding. Trolling or accusing someone of being a troll is also a form of trolling and is not permitted."
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What point could it possibly prove?
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Originally Posted by recalx
this thread is mostly retarded because none of you would be willing to competitively pve to prove a point.
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Quote:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I assume that the posters on this board are not childish, I therefore assume that every personal attack or other content free comment is an acknowledgement that I am right and the poster simply does not want to admit it.
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Yes dug, you got us. We've realized that you are the ONLY person that knows how to properly play this game and we're jealous.
Please tell us how to play some more!
(This is called "sarcasm", for those readers unfamiliar with it's use.)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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That's nice, but, you know, those words weren't used.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
yes, nitpicking exact wording like the difference between "not useful" and "useful".
as to your continue attacks on me: "Trolling is defined as deliberately posting derogatory, inflammatory comments/threads in order to bait other users into responding. Trolling or accusing someone of being a troll is also a form of trolling and is not permitted." |
And I'd say knowingly posting blatantly wrong information then playing victim when people tell you you're wrong falls under your little definition there nicely, thanks.
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qft.
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Originally Posted by darth_khasei
ah, another dugfromthearth provoke thread. Brilliant.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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they weren't the exact words used - but I didn't think you would nitpick exact wording.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
That's nice, but, you know, those words weren't used.
And I'd say knowingly posting blatantly wrong information then playing victim when people tell you you're wrong falls under your little definition there nicely, thanks. |
And you keep saying I am wrong, but post nothing substantive to show that I am. Your continued avoidance of substance simply convinces me further that I am right.
You have posted on this thread multiple times, you are not avoiding it. You have no reason not to post a substantive example of how I am wrong except that you do not have one.
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You can see my post back on page 4 that you avoided spelling out how your original post was wrong. |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
And you keep saying I am wrong, but post nothing substantive to show that I am. Your continued avoidance of substance simply convinces me further that I am right.
You have posted on this thread multiple times, you are not avoiding it. You have no reason not to post a substantive example of how I am wrong except that you do not have one. |
Yes, Some ATs are stronger than others, however you really lack any good knowledge in any terms of gameplay about what specifically is good and what is bad and how ATs fair off in comparison to eachother.
Every AT is useful and I will take all of them. Variety is required however as too much of anything is either cumbersome or boring. The player makes or breaks the AT.
@bpphantom
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I assume that everyone knows the same things I do. Therefore, if they disagree with me, it must be because they are stupid. I learned this from a brilliant management consultant named Dogbert. |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I assume that the posters on this board are not childish, I therefore assume that every personal attack or other content free comment is an acknowledgement that I am right and the poster simply does not want to admit it.
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The Mentor Project
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Really? I woulda thought more like 0.8 buffalo offal.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i rate it 2.3 allosaurus bunions.
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ATs from most to least desirable:
1: Whatever the first person who joins the team wants to bring.
2: Whatever the second person who joins the team wants to bring.
3: Whatever the third person who joins the team wants to bring.
And so on, until the team is full. If you seriously need to pick and choose ATs based on perceived usefulness, you're doing it wrong.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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^This
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
ATs from most to least desirable:
1: Whatever the first person who joins the team wants to bring. 2: Whatever the second person who joins the team wants to bring. 3: Whatever the third person who joins the team wants to bring. And so on, until the team is full. If you seriously need to pick and choose ATs based on perceived usefulness, you're doing it wrong. |
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This is what I have seen for the past 7 years also.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
ATs from most to least desirable:
1: Whatever the first person who joins the team wants to bring. 2: Whatever the second person who joins the team wants to bring. 3: Whatever the third person who joins the team wants to bring. And so on, until the team is full. If you seriously need to pick and choose ATs based on perceived usefulness, you're doing it wrong. |
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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In the old days, I used to hear people ask for Defenders, or "healers." But over the last few years, the vast overwhelming majority of advertised requests I've seen have been for either:|
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
This is what I have seen for the past 7 years also.
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1. A Tanker
2. Buff, Debuff, or literally Buff/Debuff (overwhelmingly most common: Debuff)
3. Damage
4. Anything to fill the spot
At one time more common, but increasingly rare:
- Healer
- Defender
- "A Kin"
The only archetypes that have *some* difficulty fitting into *some* people's concept of the big three (Tanker, Buff/Debuff, Damage) on any consistent basis in my experience:
- Stalkers
- Peacebringers
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For my last post on this thread I will skip any analysis or comments and just list a rank order of usefulness to a team for non-IO, non-incarnate, characters not going after an AV or GM.
Controller
Defender
Corruptor
SoA Crab
SoA Fortunata
Mastermind
SoA Bane
SoA Night Widow
Dominator
Tanker
Brute
Blaster
Stalker (with new buffs)
Scrapper
Too build specific to rank:
Peacebringer
Warshade
and for the record, I play Tankers and Dominators
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Nice, tyvm for providing a list of what you think in terms of usefulness based on the AT. Now all is right in the world.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
For my last post on this thread I will skip any analysis or comments and just list a rank order of usefulness to a team for non-IO, non-incarnate, characters not going after an AV or GM.
Controller Defender Corruptor SoA Crab SoA Fortunata Mastermind SoA Bane SoA Night Widow Dominator Tanker Brute Blaster Stalker (with new buffs) Scrapper Too build specific to rank: Peacebringer Warshade and for the record, I play Tankers and Dominators |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
For me this whole thread boils down to one quote "I'm not a Brewster at all! I'm the son of a sea cook!!"
Quote:
THANK YOU!!!|
Originally Posted by Mordakar
This is an outrage!
Diet Dr. Pepper does NOT taste more like regular Dr. Pepper! |
Why do so few people see that?!
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It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
I've been on a couple pugs with no repeat AT's and we steamrolled everything in sight. It was awesome. Everyone was useful and we all had great fun.
Some of the most intense fun I've had has been on teams of 8 Blasters! 
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Keep Calm & Chive On!
Quote:
Contradicting himself in one simple sentence..meaning he has no clue what he is talking about.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Arachnos Soldier: Desirability low, usefulness medium. You bring buffs but not the kind people recognize. So you are useful but no one asks for you. Crabs with massive AoE are very useful.
Blaster: Desirability low, Usefulness low. You bring damage which everyone does. Fire and archery provide a lot of AoE which is very useful in teams. The others not so much. Exception: vs AV's your high single target damage is desired. Brute: Desirability low, usefulness low. You bring damage which everyone does. Fire and electric provide a lot of AoE which is very useful on teams. Exception: vs AV's your high single target damage is desired. Corruptor: Desirability high, usefulness medium. You bring buffs and healing which are often asked for. Your damage is nothing special although fire and archery are good AoE and useful. Defender: Desirability high, usefulness medium. You bring buffs and healing which are often asked for. Your damage is nothing special although fire and archery are good AoE and useful. Peacebringer: Desirability low, usefulness varies. No one knows what you can do until you do it. You might tank, you might have good AoE, you might be useless. Warshade: Desirability low, usefulness varies. No one knows what you can do until you do it. You might tank, you might have good AoE, you might be useless. Incarnate Powers: With Incarnate powers, there is so much AoE that AT's providing it are no longer useful. Only single target damage AT's are important Scrapper: Desirability low, usefulness low. You bring damage which everyone does. Unless you are fire, electric or spines, you are single target and not very useful. Exception: vs AV's your high single target damage is desired. |
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First the numerical facts:
Blasters do not have the highest damage cap: Brutes do (775% vs 500%)
Blasters do not have the highest melee modifier: Scrappers are higher (1.125) followed by Dominators (1.05) and then Blasters (1.0)
Blasters do not have the highest ranged modifier: Scrappers use the melee modifier for most ranged attacks (1.125) and are tied with Blasters (1.125) if you do not count criticals.
Blasters do not have the highest normalized damage cap (modifer x strength cap): their ranged value (5.625) is exceeded by Brutes (5.813) and Scrappers (5.906 @ 5% crit rate). Controllers and Corruptors can also situationally exceed these numbers (with containment and scourge respectively).
In the specific area of "enhanced non-buffed" AoE damage, Blasters are about numerically tied with Brutes [1.125 * (1.95 + 0.45) = 2.7 vs 0.75 * (1.95 + 1.6) = 2.66] but actually average slightly less AoEs - in terms of non-tier 9 ranged cones and AoEs the average blaster primary has 2.08 AoEs (25 in 12 sets) and the average brute primary has 2.2 (33 in 15 sets). And that doesn't include the fact that Brutes have more AoE potential in their secondaries than Blasters do in their primaries (damage auras are in 40% of secondaries and a couple have actual AoE attacks - Burn, Shield Charge).
Also, for the record, the strongest damage self-buff powers belong to melee archetypes and not blasters: Rage, Power Siphon, Against All Odds, Fiery Embrace.
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