AT's, their desirability and usefulness in teams

After you reach a certain threshold on buffs your team is going to be benefitting more from pure damage AT rather than more buffs/debuffs. If you're entire team is constantly at 400% dmg buff, and enemies are hitting -90% res or higher (sleets) a pure damage dealer (fire blaster, ss/fire brute, tw/elec brute, fire/shield scrapper) is going to be more beneficial than another buff/debuffer even if that buff/debuffer is a high dps fire corr.



Okay, I'll bite.

This is my opinion on AT effectiveness taken from the perspective of someone who held the fastest speed records in coh before incarnates came out in i19 and made everything silly and detracted from what each AT is specifically capable of. This list is mostly an experiment to see what reactions people will say to it, but I think for the most part when looking at high-end endgame speed content, it holds mostly true.

Basically there are 3 main things a toon can bring to a team: damage, buffs, or control. Damage is straight forward and overlaps with buffs and control for all ATs sans blasters. Buffs can be further broken down into offensive buffing and defensive buffing. Control can be further broken down into mezzing and aggro management.

I will also assume each AT is using an optimal powerset combination for simplicity as comparing all the non optimal power sets would make the list extraordinarily long. For normal gameplay this would typically be impractical, but this is just a hypothetical list. This means any blast set would be fire. Any brute would be ss/ or tw/ with /fire /elec or /dark. Any scrapper would be fire/shield. Etcetera. Anything listed below must excel at both dealing damage and providing whatever else they do well to be ranked high. Rankings here also assume the rest of the team is also playing of equal skill level and the team is built optimally with you in the most optimal spot.


DPS+Offensive Buffing:
1) Corruptors
2) Dominators (ice mastery_sleet)
3/4) Controllers/Defenders*
5) Arachnos Soldiers**
6/7) Masterminds/Arachnos Widows***

*Interchangeable for various reasons and highly dependant on situation.
** Soldiers are ranked higher than widows due to their -res debuffs
***These 2 are potentially interchangeable. Masterminds can provide better offensive buffs/debuffs compared to Widows, but Widows can deal much more effective dps in any situation.

DPS+Defensive Buffing
1) Corruptors
2/3) Defenders/Controllers*
4) Arachnos Widows**
5) Arachnos Soldiers
6) Masterminds

*Defs and Controllers are interchangable here as above.
** Widows are ranked higher than Soldiers here due to similar DPS output but with slightly better defensive buffs, otherwise they are pretty much equal.
*** Masterminds hit the bottom here, not because they can't be effective defensive buffers, more that their damage can be highly inconsistant. Consistancy is very important

DPS+Mezzing
1) Dominators
2) Controllers
3) Arachnos Widows (fortunatas)

This is a rather odd list to put up here, as each AT here is really unqiue in what they do, and really the only true DPS+mez AT is specifically the Dominator. I suppose I could also make a list of Buff+Mez where it would easily be Troller>Dom>Widow, but with that said, Trollers are the only AT that truly belongs there also.

DPS+Aggro Control
1) Brutes
2) Scrappers
3) Tankers
4) Stalkers
5) Warshade
6) Peacebringer

Being able to hold aggro is very important both offensively and defensively to a team. If mobs are running around everywhere scattered to the four winds, kill speed will go down. On a stacked team the defensive portion to aggro control tends to get covered in buffs, however it is still worth mentioning, imo.

2 exceptions to the above lists are blasters, who are purely damage dealers and don't really fall into the above categories due to not having a secondary function. Blasters are also unique in being one of the best ATs to be on the recieving end of some serious buffing. The other being controllers who are unique in their mezzing+buffing, I do feel they can fit in with the above listings as they can do respectable damage (pending on powersets, of course), so they are up there, but I felt they deserved a mention here.

If I were to make an overall AT usefulness list it would look something like this, however there is alot of asterisks, situational advantages and disadvantages. This is purely meant to be the closest possible representation of what is generally most effective in most sitations. It is not meant to be taken as absolute.


1) Corruptors (best in terms of dealing both high damage and strong force multipliers
2) Defenders (Same as above except with less damage and negligible higher buff mods)*
3) Brutes (High damage and aggro control)
4) Scrappers (High damage and aggro control)**
5) Dominators (High DPS+Mezzing+Debuffing in the form of Sleet)
6/7) Blasters (High DPS)*** and Controllers (Low-Moderate DPS+Buffing)**** Blasters and Controllers are about the same in my book in terms of overall team effectiveness, they just lie on opposite sides of the spectrum.
8-12 Arachnos Soldiers, Arachnos Widows, Tankers, Stalkers, Masterminds. I consider all these about the same, each with different strengths and weaknesses in comparison to eachother.
13/14) Peacebringers, Warshades. Low-Moderate dps. No buffing/debuffing. Poor aggro management compared to other melee ATs. More survivability than should ever be considered necessary.



* Strictly inferior to Corruptors
** Strictly inferior to Brutes
*** Only placed here because of how effective they are when on the recieving end of a stacked team with alot of buffers. Without the buffs they would be alot lower and they cannot bring buffs to the team themselves. However if enough buffs are already present and mez or aggro control to prevent scatter is present, then blasters become optimal.
**** Strictly inferior when control is not needed, but fall into a niche where they can be very useful if a team specifically needs both control and buffing.

Now removing the astricks you are left with this (in no particular order:

-Corruptors (the go-to AT for damage and buffs)
-Brutes (the go-to AT for damage and aggro management)
-Dominators (the go-to AT for damage and mez)
-Blasters (a focused AT on dealing damage, this spot is only here when buffs and control are already solid on the team). Controllers, the unique case when both things it brings are most optimal for the team slot pending on the task at hand.
-Then there is everything else.

Again these are not meant as absolute. This is not a list I would flaunt in front of a typical coh player, it is where I feel ATs fall when comparing ATs strictly for endgame content with the intent to run the content as fast as possible. Otherwise all the ATs are generally acceptable other than the bottom 5 which I will label as "needs work" (tankers, masterminds, stalkers, and kheldians).

Disclaimer: When I form teams I don't deny anyone based on their AT. I will of course be more happy with a high dps team, but that is besides the point. The only time I will deny someone is if I have had issues with them in the past or they don't get along with someone else currently on the team, or if they are +0 level shifted and I'm running UGT/TPN/MoM.

Also, lol longest post I've ever written.

he was the last to take the VEAT corner :P

I think VEATs are not common cause they are hard to set up..
What do people want? MM Crab? Buff Crab? Stalking Bane? Hunstman?
I just say when they ask me for my AT that i'm a Blapping Cranker (Blaster/Scrapper Crab/Tank/Defender). I'm a real Jack of ALL trades, master of nothing, i can switch my style to what ever the team needs.
It took me about 1.5 years straight, neglecting my other toons, having a 26Bill build to get where i am now. And unless u really know what u want from a VEAT, it's hard to make a solid one.
Since i have been on Neph for so long, people see what they can do, and start to make one.
Several times people told me that i inspired them to make a VEAT, and i'm humbled and honored every time i hear that.
It's not cause my toon is uber this or uber that.. it's cause i know my toon inside out, and know how to use it.. and THAT, is the main part with playing.. Knowing how to use your toon to the best of it's capabilities depending on how you have made it (Power choices and slotting).

Veats are great. My only issue with them is their 300% dmg cap. They are fabulous at base, but once you start adding in buffage, they start falling behind.

For example, my Nightwidow that no longer exists had double assault (30% dmg buff), around 30% dmg buff in set bonuses, Follow up (easily a perma 60% dmg buff or more) and ~100% dmg buff in enhancements. That puts you at 220% damage buff already, which leaves you very little room for improvement from outside sources or using things like red inspirations or abilities like call to justice, or Musculature alpha. I'm not sure I would put my hand down and say VEATs should have their damage caps increased to 400%, since I don't have any good numbers to back up such a claim for or against, but I do think that their damage cap does hold veats back in it's current state.

But other than that veats are great passive buffers that can make teams alot more sturdy and by extension more aggressive, not to mention encouraging people staying together instead of running off like an idiot and dieing. On top of that they also all are capable of very solid single target dps, and occassionly semi-decent aoe (or moreso in the case of crab spiders) all without the need for much of any outside help due to their fabulous assortment of advantages they have without any buffs (softcapped MRA, high self damage buffs).

Well, at least 3/4 of your original list had "Desireability low" right after the AT designation: if a thing is not desireable, I have this odd idea that it might not be really welcome on a team. That seemed to be what you were saying.

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Wrong on the first part, right on the second. Desirability is subjective- I don't think it's fair to make a general assessment about an Archetype as a whole because personal capabilities/build/familiarity with content are all equally contributing to the overall notion of "usefulness."

I can certainly tell you that on Minds of Mayhem, my Warshade is out-DPSing all the dead Scrappers and Blasters who were too busy pre-queing their attacks to think while they play, avoid the environmental damage, and stay alive. I can also tell you that I'm more useful than the folks who die at the end of Keyes Island during a badge run, while I'm teleporting held leaguemates out of the Obliteration Beam.

When it comes to non-end game content, Warshades can essentially solo everything, so any argument for uselessness is null and void. My Warshade, and many other Warshades, can solo level 53-54 AV's without temps or Lore pets. We've also been known to solo the hardest enemy groups in the game on 54x8, so there's no logical grounds for dismissing our damage output or survivability.

When it comes to usefulness on teams... If DPS, AOE, and off-tank isn't enough, we can also permanently stun entire even-con spawns at a time (the only time I can't do this on teams is during Incarnate trials, and those enemies have insane mez protection.)

In a nutshell, I'm sensing that the OP is misinformed/ignorant of the capabilities of my preferred AT, which is leading to a misdiagnosis of "usefulness." I'll let others speak in defense of their AT/sets of choice, but this is my two cents.

Starvation is a common form of animal cruelty.

Puppies and kittens are often the subject of animal cruelty.

Why do you hate puppies and kittens BRA?

Fixt'

Shocks me that so many are so eager to don their aprons and cook up a feast for him...

That is all!

I lol'd.

Yeees. Disagreeing with you = "personal attacks" from people who "have no clue and are simply saying what they think they should say". Couldn't POSSIBLY be that you're, I don't know...WRONG.

Seems to be a troll post, so I am sure the OP got what they were looking for.

T-H-E H-E-L-L Y-O-U S-A-Y!

Praetoria?

THIS...OMG. The entire post is incredibly arbitrary and I think many people would disagree. A blaster is not desirable? (One of many, many things I disagree with). I love when I jump on a team that has such high DPS...it means I will be done faster. The only part I would agree with is if it was only blasters, and then I would only agree sometimes.

Defender highly desirable? While I really do like defenders, I would much prefer a corruptor or troller because of the whole package.

MM is useful? Sometimes, not at all.

I just have to let this go. This post is crazy! LOL

You are probably right, and I jumped right in. : (

Eh, they're bored, he's bored, seems to work itself out.

yes, and if low=none then your conclusion would be correct

but low/=none

Now I can see a problem in that I did not list choosing no one as an option for desirability comparison. So a scrapper is less desirable than a defender on a team, but I did not list "non one" as not desirable - indicating that a scrapper would be more desirable than not having a full team.

In my defense, I was listing AT's and their comparative desirability on teams, not the desirability of having a player on the team at all.

I'm confused by your post on a few counts.

1. you mention non-end game content and then discuss 53-54 AV's, Incarnate trials, 54x8, etc. That strikes me as end game content.

2. I'm not sure how I am misdiagnosing the usefulness of "varies". It is so vague as to be pretty much guaranteed to be true. Some warshades can DPS, some can Tank, some can do both. Depending on how which forms you use, your usefulness to a team varies.

Lastly, I agree that desirability is subjective. You may have noted that it does not always match usefulness. I would just ask how many times you have seen someone broadcast that they are looking for a warshade for their team.

Honestly, you lost all credibility when you claimed that I said VEATS are next to worthless. I said nothing like that.

I can quote the OP for Arachnos Soldiers and Widows "So you are useful"

Now did you conclude that "you are useful" equates to "next to worthless" or did you simply not read the post?