AT's, their desirability and usefulness in teams
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-01-21 21:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by recalx
very much incorrect.
i've been in bafs where 90% of the league has judgement, and the AVs drop significantly faster. especially when there's enough debuffs involved. |
You missread me my friend. I was speaking poorly of LORE pets recharge, NOT Judgment which I use as often as it is up.
As for the eariler reply to my post. Everyone has their tastes.. myself I find the recharge for lore to long to be of use to me to the point I use them about as often in the current 50+ game as much as I do my T9 Defense powers.. I love the buff aspect of the lore pets.. I just don't need thier extra dps with me at all as all of my 50's are dps focused anyway.
Huh?
Uhm gonna have to disagree with most of your "insights." IMO all ATs have a place and usefulness.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Had a good laugh at the OP.
VEATs bring tons of pets + teamwide defense and damage bonuses.
Blasters kill stuff like no tomorrow.
Defenders have massive buffs (highest buff scalars in game, iirc) and no slouches attacking either.
On and on.
If you like all Controller teams, knock yourself out but the other ATs offer tons to any team configuration.
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Wow. Made an idiot of yourself on the first one! Good job!
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
The initial parts are for leveling up, not IO sets and not incarnate powers.
Arachnos Soldier: Desirability low, usefulness medium. |
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I'm 99% sure you aren't playing the same game I am.
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Originally Posted by recalx
meh, it's amazing how after 7 years, people are still in denial about melee.
having any melee in a team is a waste of a spot. |
...wait, you're not joking?
I can't decide if that's even funnier or just sad.
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It is true that in the great scheme of things, Scrappers are relatively undesireable on teams; certainly less so than an active Controller or Corruptor with slotted out buffs/debuffs and who knows how to use them. [Unfortunately 'trollers and 'Corrs who don't bother using their buffs/debuffs except once in a blue moon are Legion]. But to say Tanks are not wanted on teams is just made of sheer funny. Funny ha-ha, not funny-peculiar. |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I should also point out that desirability low does not mean that no one will play with them, but that no one asks for them or is excited to get them. No one ever says "great, we got a scrapper on the team" and means it. They will play with a scrapper on the team, but they were not wanting one.
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As for Scrappers not getting invites to teams, can't say I've seen that.
I remember the time my Fortunata got yelled at for having her buffs turned off while the leader was trying to form the rest of a TF team.
"Ur buffs r off."
"We're just standing around atm. I will turn them on when the TF starts."
"Should be on now."
...At which time I just mentally gave him the finger and kept right on with stancevillain2.
According to this list the only desireable AT on a team is/are Controllers. Can't say that I agree.
While it is nice to get a lot of responses, it is clear by the large number of personal attacks and lack of specificity that most responders have no clue and are simply saying what they think they should say. Every character is a unique and precious snowflake. Every AT is awesome. All AT's are equal.
Of course that is simply stupid, and pretending that it is so does not make you wise or knowledgeable.
There is no way that a scrapper is as useful on a team as a defender or corruptor, unless the defender or cor are incredibly incompetent. I know scrappers do not like to hear that. They like to think that everyone is thrilled when a scrapper joins the team, but in fact they are just filler.
If you disagree with me, list in order the usefulness of AT's on a team. If you say they are all equally useful, you are either delusional or lying.
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According to this list all AT's are desirable, some moreso than others. |
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
According to this list the only desireable AT on a team is/are Controllers. Can't say that I agree.
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According to this list Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, and Tankers are all the most highly desired.
Unless you are responding to a different post, which would actually explain a lot of the responses.
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Most useful on a team? Competent players!|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
While it is nice to get a lot of responses, it is clear by the large number of personal attacks and lack of specificity that most responders have no clue and are simply saying what they think they should say. Every character is a unique and precious snowflake. Every AT is awesome. All AT's are equal.
Of course that is simply stupid, and pretending that it is so does not make you wise or knowledgeable. There is no way that a scrapper is as useful on a team as a defender or corruptor, unless the defender or cor are incredibly incompetent. I know scrappers do not like to hear that. They like to think that everyone is thrilled when a scrapper joins the team, but in fact they are just filler. If you disagree with me, list in order the usefulness of AT's on a team. If you say they are all equally useful, you are either delusional or lying. |
I ratehr take a good player on a crappy toon, than a crappy player on a great toon.
People who know me, know i love my VEAT, i have little to no understanding about playing scrappers, Fenders, doms and such... well, i know how to play my lead tank, that's basically it.
To say Scrappers are fillers on a team, is just being ignorant, or maybe you have some twisted humor to have us go berserk about your comments, idk, i don't care either.
AT's and powersets are just a small piece of the whole pie.
I'll show you the whole pie:
-AT
-Powerset
-Slotting
-Play Style
-Player
These are important to see how good the toon is, one is just as important as the other. The more pices of that pie u have, the better the toon will be on your team.
But, with all honesty, u lost all credibility when u opened with VEATs being next to worthless. Come join us on an all VEAT ITF. Widows, banes, Fortunatas, Night Widows, Crabs and even Hunstman.. either combination of those, and a full team.. will be one hell of a ride.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
While it is nice to get a lot of responses, it is clear by the large number of personal attacks and lack of specificity that most responders have no clue and are simply saying what they think they should say. Every character is a unique and precious snowflake. Every AT is awesome. All AT's are equal.
Of course that is simply stupid, and pretending that it is so does not make you wise or knowledgeable. There is no way that a scrapper is as useful on a team as a defender or corruptor, unless the defender or cor are incredibly incompetent. I know scrappers do not like to hear that. They like to think that everyone is thrilled when a scrapper joins the team, but in fact they are just filler. If you disagree with me, list in order the usefulness of AT's on a team. If you say they are all equally useful, you are either delusional or lying. |
..We all have no clue, and are simply saying..what we think..we are saying? That line makes my head hurt. In fact..I dont think anyone here claimed that all ATs ARE equal. This is because..the people IN this threads, besides you Dug..actually have SOME idea about the game.
Team with 7 support ATs. Is that last spot best filled by another support, or a scrapper? Go on..tell me. Scrapper with 7 kinds of buffs and debuffs? Yeah..he wont be doing ANYTHING.
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And the Defender or Corruptor might not have buffs either. |
Originally Posted by Kirsten
I have known many controllers which take no buffs. Want buffs? find a Defender or Corruptor.
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| You get one Judgement attack every friggin' half-hour. |
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| Why are you so obsessed with AoE damage, anyway? There is still much to be had from ST. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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They ARE all equally useful, by the only metric that means a damn thing: They are other people that I enjoy playing the game with, regardless of what AT they happen to be playing at the time. And to be blunt, I really don't give the south end of a northbound rat what you think about it. |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
While it is nice to get a lot of responses, it is clear by the large number of personal attacks and lack of specificity that most responders have no clue and are simply saying what they think they should say. Every character is a unique and precious snowflake. Every AT is awesome. All AT's are equal.
Of course that is simply stupid, and pretending that it is so does not make you wise or knowledgeable. There is no way that a scrapper is as useful on a team as a defender or corruptor, unless the defender or cor are incredibly incompetent. I know scrappers do not like to hear that. They like to think that everyone is thrilled when a scrapper joins the team, but in fact they are just filler. If you disagree with me, list in order the usefulness of AT's on a team. If you say they are all equally useful, you are either delusional or lying. |
You strike me as the kind of person who would tell their best friend to get stuffed if he wanted to join your team with a scrapper.
Sorry, your insistence that only certain ATs have any purpose on a team is what is stupid here.
There are other things here that are stupid as well, but I'll just leave it at that.
Do both us and yourself a favor: Stop making forums posts in which you tell everyone who plays the game different than you that they are doing it wrong.
Have you noticed you're not especially popular on the forums? I wonder why that could possibly be?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
64+ posts, threads mission accomplished.
Next revelation..?
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I don't know what to say to this. Please, someone tell me!
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
While it is nice to get a lot of responses, it is clear by the large number of personal attacks and lack of specificity that most responders have no clue and are simply saying what they think they should say.
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Now you're making sense.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Tankers are the most highly desired.
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Because aggro management is a nice to have. |
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight
That's exactly what stood out to me the most... Brutes do aggro management almost as well as Tanks do, so why is Brute lumped in with Scrapper as "only" a damage dealer?
In fact, that's the main reason I like playing Brutes more than Scrappers: thanks to Pokevoke in the primaries and taunt auras in the secondaries, opponents are far less likely to run away. |
I listed tankers as high desirability - teams want them, but medium usefulness - they are not all that helpful.
Brutes survivability is far lower, unless buffed. The real value there is the buffers, not the brute.
In a more nuanced system I would but brutes above scrappers, but the difference just is not that great.
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Desired for what?|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
According to this list all AT's are desirable, some moreso than others.
According to this list Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, and Tankers are all the most highly desired. Unless you are responding to a different post, which would actually explain a lot of the responses. |
I got invited to a level 19 pug hero group on Virtue just a few hours ago; I was on my Trick Arrow/Psy. We had a jolly good team with our ragtag group of my TA, a Beam Rifle Corruptor, an Ice Tanker, an Empathy Controller, two Blasters and a Warshade at lead. At no point did the leader go: "Hey, we need X" since the Council and Outcasts were just dropping like flies. No one ever got hit since Flash Arrow + alpha neutralized everything.
If I'm short something for a TF, I'll fill on need. VEATs and their buffs are awesome and they do reasonable damage. Scrappers are great. Some of those Fiery Aura types just melt stuff and have a super quick recharge self-heal. Would I love some Corruptors or Controllers on most teams? Sure! But...only if they actually, you know, buff AND shoot. Too many teams have totems in nice costumes with flashy power auras.
The only time I can see wanting more of something would be on an Incarnate trial or against really hard targets. Even then, 24 +3 Blasters or Scrappers could probably melt those trials...
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I love Crabs. I think SoA's are amazing, having finally gotten around to trying them. I am amazed they are not more popular.|
Originally Posted by Dark Energon
Buffs that people not recognize?
Dual leadership pools aka, dual Tactic, dual Damage buff and dual Maneuvers. Yeah, so not useful.. LMAO. Oh, don't forget about Venom Grenade, Suppression, Longfang, Channel Gun, Arm Lash and Omega Maneuver. Most of the Crab powers debuff defense. Come to Guardian server, join an Incarnate trial with a Crab named Nephila, you'll change your view. |
But then I also realize that the leadership buffs are amazing - and the simple fact is that the vast majority of players do not. If people realized how great they were, every team above low levels would have at least maneuvers from every character.
even with the low buff that's almost +20% def for everyone with no enhancements.
SoA buffs and leadership buffs are amazing. But most players are not really aware of them or how good they are.
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It has been a long time since I played a stalker (my most recent stalkerish was a Night Widow, not a real stalker). I have looked into their primaries again and they do get a lot of AoE with certain sets like electric - the same as brutes and scrappers.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I see so much wrong with you post (OP). But let's field one that stands out to me as it's become my main as of late, and looks to be improved in i22.
Stalkers bring AOE. Certain sets accessable by Stalkers lack AOE. |
You are correct, stalkers bring AOE. I have edited the OP to correct this.
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My Warshade has been soloing at x8 since level 39.
My Fire/Fire brute is a similarly disgusting wall of firey doom.
My Mace/WP tank can solo at x8/+3, it's just a little bit slow and feels non-super, so I usually stick to x8 or x7.
Largely without IOs, my Stone/Dark Brute was duoing at x7 with an Earth/Rad Controller, from around level 26 on. Same for my FF/AR Defender with a DP/Kinetics Corr.
By the time my leveling buddy and I hit the mid 30s and get some basic IOs slotted (and I rarely bother to slot for sets until I'm 40+), I consider duos that can't handle x7 or better "on the weaker side" of my character roster.
This list is largely useless because there is a huge variance on what works and what doesn't on a team between and even within ATs, especially considering the force multipliers that most classes bring in one form or another (AoEs, buffs, debuffs, etc). Saying the only things that are highly desired on a typical team are the "Tank class" and the "low damage, high support" class and all the others are low or medium because "everyone else can do DPS" smacks of looking at the game through a Holy Trinity lens, which is really unnecessary.
And also handily ignores the fact that a well-built, well-played character can solo the hardest mission content in the game already, making more of anything largely superfluous.
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When they up Time Manip's -Regen to actually being effective, I'll play my Support toon more I promise!|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
If all that is true, then I don't understand why my Brute seems to be as welcome on teams as any other AT, and just as effective within the role designed for it. DPS, survivability, and aggro management are all very useful qualities which Brutes have in as much abundance as any other AT you care to mention, so I don't really see how they stand out as low desirability or low usefulness.
The only time I've felt excluded from a team has been when an iTrial league specifically shouts out looking for "healing/support", indicating to me that they are already so melee heavy that I might not be as valuable as a Controller, Dominator, Defender, or Corruptor (though I've seen plenty of trollers, doms, and corrs that don't do a whole lot of team buffing except when it also benefits them). Personally, I like seeing lots of support and ranged dps ATs on a team if only because they help to balance out the overabundance of melee characters that I constantly see in the post-50 game. But most teams seem to display an attitude of being quite happy with anyone who wants to join (and plays competently). I don't really see much in the way of a clear control/support bias during team formation, at least not on Virtue. |
*hint hint devs*
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Maybe it's a Virtue thing, what server do you play on, but I see many people knowing the value of the Leadership pool.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I love Crabs. I think SoA's are amazing, having finally gotten around to trying them. I am amazed they are not more popular.
But then I also realize that the leadership buffs are amazing - and the simple fact is that the vast majority of players do not. If people realized how great they were, every team above low levels would have at least maneuvers from every character. even with the low buff that's almost +20% def for everyone with no enhancements. SoA buffs and leadership buffs are amazing. But most players are not really aware of them or how good they are. |
Since Inherent Stamina, more people have picked them up as well.
Out of all my characters, only one lacked the Leaership Pool (Fire/Earth Dom, I just didnt have the pool powers for it! Concept demand Hover and teleport >_>)
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people are really stupid.
and there's not a lot of people playing this game to truly chose from aside from incarnate trials.