AT's, their desirability and usefulness in teams
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-01-21 21:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You're either trolling, delusional, or never play on any of the servers or teams that I've been on. The quoted snippets alone indicate that.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Brute: Desirability low, usefulness low.
<...> Tanker: Desirability high, usefulness medium. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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That's exactly what stood out to me the most... Brutes do aggro management almost as well as Tanks do, so why is Brute lumped in with Scrapper as "only" a damage dealer?
In fact, that's the main reason I like playing Brutes more than Scrappers: thanks to Pokevoke in the primaries and taunt auras in the secondaries, opponents are far less likely to run away.
So what I got from this...
Nobody is very useful or desired, and you hate tankers.
dugfromthearth: Desirability low, usefulness low. You start too many threads announcing your ill-formed opinions as facts even though they're never asked for. You are missing an 'e' from your handle. Your lack of experience of playing a wide range of ATs and powersets is not useful.
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What if he's "dug from the 'arth," as in, the hearth? This could represent anything from a burning ember to a thick layer of creosote. Perhaps a wedding ring, cast into the fire in a fit of passion, later recovered with a melancholy sigh.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
dugfromthearth: Desirability low, usefulness low. You start too many threads announcing your ill-formed opinions as facts even though they're never asked for. You are missing an 'e' from your handle. Your lack of experience of playing a wide range of ATs and powersets is not useful.
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What about coal?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
What if he's "dug from the 'arth," as in, the hearth? This could represent anything from a burning ember to a thick layer of creosote. Perhaps a wedding ring, cast into the fire in a fit of passion, later recovered with a melancholy sigh.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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What about coprolite?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What about coal?
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Tankers usless? Tanks are one of the most needed things on the team. This is biased in favor of Controllers and Defenders I say!
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You misunderstand, which is no doubt my fault.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Ahhhh Damage..that thing EVERYONE does (genius observation that one) but no team actually needs. Odd considering..ever tried killing something with heals? With controls? With taunts?
Also sounds like you really need some more experience with blast sets other than fire/archery. Dp and Ar will do just as much aoe as them. And..ALL controls have heals and buffs? I guess Ta doesnt count.. |
Of course every team needs damage, but every AT has it. If you have a team of 8 different AT's you have a team with 8 characters that do damage.
It is incredibly rare that anyone asks for or even considers that they need more damage on a team. It is just there.
I should also point out that desirability low does not mean that no one will play with them, but that no one asks for them or is excited to get them. No one ever says "great, we got a scrapper on the team" and means it. They will play with a scrapper on the team, but they were not wanting one.
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If I have a team of a Tanker, Defender, Mastermind, and Controller, especially in the 1-50 game to which you are referring, you better believe I'm looking for a Blaster, Scrapper, or at least a Corruptor or Dominator. Yes, "everyone does damage" but a Blaster or Scrapper will put out impressive damage numbers from level 1 onward. Other archetypes hit their damaging prime time much later in their careers.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
You misunderstand, which is no doubt my fault.
Of course every team needs damage, but every AT has it. If you have a team of 8 different AT's you have a team with 8 characters that do damage. It is incredibly rare that anyone asks for or even considers that they need more damage on a team. It is just there. |
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I should also point out that desirability low does not mean that no one will play with them, but that no one asks for them or is excited to get them. No one ever says "great, we got a scrapper on the team" and means it. They will play with a scrapper on the team, but they were not wanting one.
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Instead, try presenting the text of the OP as your personal opinions, and then ask how people view different ATs, or ask what you may be missing. Players are happy to point out the "in's and out's" of their favorite archetype, and it may give you a fresh perspective on what is "useful or desirable."
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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This isn't true. Having 1-2 melee (brute or scrapper preferably) on a team of 8 is very beneficial. They keep AVs/mobs from running around all over and provide good dps (it has very little to do with being a defensive pivot for the team, thats what buffers are for). Of course the rest of the team will hopefully not be melee, but having 8 corrs isn't better than 1-2 brutes and 6-7 corrs
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Originally Posted by recalx
meh, it's amazing how after 7 years, people are still in denial about melee.
having any melee in a team is a waste of a spot. |
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Originally Posted by Psychoti
What about coprolite?
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Why not Zoidberg?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Heh, this proves you are just stringing people along, now.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
You misunderstand, which is no doubt my fault.
Of course every team needs damage, but every AT has it. If you have a team of 8 different AT's you have a team with 8 characters that do damage. It is incredibly rare that anyone asks for or even considers that they need more damage on a team. It is just there. I should also point out that desirability low does not mean that no one will play with them, but that no one asks for them or is excited to get them. No one ever says "great, we got a scrapper on the team" and means it. They will play with a scrapper on the team, but they were not wanting one. |
Either that or....man, do I feel sorry for you.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Do you even play this game?
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I should also point out that desirability low does not mean that no one will play with them, but that no one asks for them or is excited to get them. No one ever says "great, we got a scrapper on the team" and means it. They will play with a scrapper on the team, but they were not wanting one.
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Stalker: Desirability low, usefulness low. You bring damage which everyone does, you do not have AoE and just are not very useful. Exception: vs AV's your high single target damage is desired.
^== I beg to differ as far as me at least.. I have more AoE than probably other stalkers. And usually end up using rebirth more on others than myself in tfs. And there are attacks on duel blades that are infact debuffs to enemies...
And there's the fact that people fight over me for tfs
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eh.. brutes provide the exception because of their obscene damage cap.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
This isn't true. Having 1-2 melee (brute or scrapper preferably) on a team of 8 is very beneficial. They keep AVs/mobs from running around all over and provide good dps (it has very little to do with being a defensive pivot for the team, thats what buffers are for). Of course the rest of the team will hopefully not be melee, but having 8 corrs isn't better than 1-2 brutes and 6-7 corrs
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8 corrs is definitely better than 6-7 corrs and 1-2 scrappers/tanks/stalkers. and 6-7 corrs with 1-2 trollers/blasters/doms will possibly even out-do the brute combo, and most definitely the scrapper wildcard.
as to being defensive point, a good dom/troller can easily take over that role on pretty much any situation in the game. pretty much every one of my doms can steal AV agro from a tank that insists on using only gauntlet in every incarnate TF (why is always carry an inordinate amount of inspirations). with accolades, IOs and enough buffs, a dom or troller can tank pretty much every and any AV in the game.
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sez you. |
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
T
Scrapper: Desirability low, |
I'm sexy and i know it.(is this a gag costume i'm going to now change, or am i going to use it to traumatize fellow trial-mates...be afraid LB, be very afraid)
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Oh happy day! A personal reply from Dug! Excuse me while a spin around in uncontrollable joy. Now that is over...I can only assume you play on one of the dead servers and never team or read help chat.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
You misunderstand, which is no doubt my fault.
Of course every team needs damage, but every AT has it. If you have a team of 8 different AT's you have a team with 8 characters that do damage. It is incredibly rare that anyone asks for or even considers that they need more damage on a team. It is just there. I should also point out that desirability low does not mean that no one will play with them, but that no one asks for them or is excited to get them. No one ever says "great, we got a scrapper on the team" and means it. They will play with a scrapper on the team, but they were not wanting one. |
No teams ASK for more damage? I see a lot of teams do this. Almost every 'other.' You know how it is:
'Team forming in talos, have blaster and scrappers, need meat shield (you know, the meat shields you see as useless).'
and then
'Team forming in talos, has healer and tank, needs damage! (you know, that other thing you think is useless).'
Just as an example...ever done a hami raid? Where EVERY AT has a role? (Khleds being veng bait) Fancy that! It must mean we all get to use our toons that are NOT a troller, archery, or fire blast, because clearly they don't help anywhere else!
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Buffs that people not recognize?|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Arachnos Soldier: Desirability low, usefulness medium. You bring buffs but not the kind people recognize. So you are useful but no one asks for you. Crabs with massive AoE are very useful. |
Dual leadership pools aka, dual Tactic, dual Damage buff and dual Maneuvers.
Yeah, so not useful.. LMAO.
Oh, don't forget about Venom Grenade, Suppression, Longfang, Channel Gun, Arm Lash and Omega Maneuver. Most of the Crab powers debuff defense.
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I see so much wrong with you post (OP). But let's field one that stands out to me as it's become my main as of late, and looks to be improved in i22.
Stalkers bring AOE.
Certain sets accessable by Stalkers lack AOE.
So Scrappers/Brutes have more AOE. You mean that Dark Melee Scrapper/Brute has more AOE than the Electric Melee Stalker? The Spines Stalker?
And a lot of times, I've seen Dark Melee users just skip Shadow Maul (I know I did 
) so that leaves Soul Drain as the only AOE damage, and that's some weak AOE that just got outshined by the DB, NIN, ELM, KM, StJ Stalkers, and hell the Claws Stalker with Shockwave probably outdid that Dark Melee Scrapper/Brute in AOE. 
That all said, I love playing Scrappers too.
Id say the reason you see so little of the Redside Epic ATs is because, really, yes you can make more than one, but then with 3 builds, you can make the different versions all on one character
So, when someone has one, it's likely the only one they make, and two, well, let's face it, most people don't like to be on redside.
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If all that is true, then I don't understand why my Brute seems to be as welcome on teams as any other AT, and just as effective within the role designed for it. DPS, survivability, and aggro management are all very useful qualities which Brutes have in as much abundance as any other AT you care to mention, so I don't really see how they stand out as low desirability or low usefulness.
The only time I've felt excluded from a team has been when an iTrial league specifically shouts out looking for "healing/support", indicating to me that they are already so melee heavy that I might not be as valuable as a Controller, Dominator, Defender, or Corruptor (though I've seen plenty of trollers, doms, and corrs that don't do a whole lot of team buffing except when it also benefits them).
Personally, I like seeing lots of support and ranged dps ATs on a team if only because they help to balance out the overabundance of melee characters that I constantly see in the post-50 game. But most teams seem to display an attitude of being quite happy with anyone who wants to join (and plays competently). I don't really see much in the way of a clear control/support bias during team formation, at least not on Virtue.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
very much incorrect.
i've been in bafs where 90% of the league has judgement, and the AVs drop significantly faster.
especially when there's enough debuffs involved.