An in-game conversation about tauntless Tankers
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-12-28 10:07 in Tankers
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I don't know why these types of threads don't end at this:
Taunt is a good tool for gathering aggro. If you find that you want/need to gather more aggro on to you, it is one of the best tools around for doing that. If you don't want/need to gather more aggro (i.e., you do a good enough job at it without Taunt), then it isn't necessary. It is a great tool for holding aggro, but not the only tool you will likely need. A Tanker with Taunt is not gauranteed to be a better Tanker than a Tanker without it, but it might make things easier. |
Even this quote doesn't counter the idea that the most competent Tanker will have taunt. Taunt is something every Tank can get, similar or same is something other ATs can use to fill the role at the crucial moments where the role is welcomed, therefore it is something all Armour Primaries or be they Secondaries can be balanced around in part, and it offers an easy way to obtain balance in terms of what can be made successful and what can't be achieved. I don't care which Tanker I am on. Taunt was designed for Tankers, tanking. Other powers, they could of almost as easily come from another AT elsewhere.
In a courtroom you have a prosecution and a defense to try to establish the truth. For the life of me I can't see the most competent Tanker being tauntless. In taking all epics across all my Tankers I can try to find ways to substitute it only to end up with a "what if?" situation that destroys it. It's easier for me to find something a Tanker without taunt game can't do than it is for me to find something that a Tanker with taunt can't do.
The Devs can bring Tanking down to doing damage in melee with a targeting frenzy and taking damage passively but then all that will happen is we will see more and more designer teams where just because you have X type of Tanker you need Y type of Defender, and peoples valued concepts considered mere pity spot takers and what not.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Under those specific circumstances and standards, I can also prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the most competent Tanker won't be Fire (cannot reach top tier Tanker damage mitigation). Or Willpower (taunt aura duration).|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
In a courtroom you have a prosecution and a defense to try to establish the truth. For the life of me I can't see the most competent Tanker being tauntless.
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Taunt may be a significant power in the tanker arsenal, but within the context of "most competent tanker" there are lots of other things that will prevent that from being true, that are options within the player's sphere of control. The question is whether that fact is material in a specific circumstance when all others are not.
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To which I say again. It's not needed. While the extra resistance is nice, it's still not going to stop whatever's killing you from killing you unless it's REALLY close to the end of the fight.|
Originally Posted by Ideon
I've kept it for incarnate trials where it has its uses.
 But in normal gameplay, I'll probably use it when exemplaring or tanking all of Recluse's lieutenants at the same time or something, haha. |
And in Incarnate content? You may as well be p***ing into the wind.
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Since the discussion seems on the verge of coming full circle, I'll point out that Taunt has the most value for Firey, Electric, and Dark Armor, since those are the 3 sets whose taunt aura can miss. If you're dealing with enemies that are very hard to hit, having an autohit taunt may be the only way to get their attention, as gauntlet won't help you much either.
Fiery Aura sort of has an option for that situation -- Consume can be used as a PBAoE taunt with a very long recharge. It's definitely not ideal.
Power Sink is autohit as well, but despite accepting Taunt enhancements, it doesn't actually taunt anything. It probably needs a look in any event, as it still grants the Tanker 5 Fury when used against AVs and other hard targets. Which of course does nothing since tankers don't have the inherent.
It also has some value for Willpower and Super Reflexes as well, since while their taunt auras are autohit, they're much weaker than the other sets.
Finally, if given the choice between using Taunt and hitting with a high damage attack, Taunt may not always be the best option, especially taking Gauntlet into consideration. While the exact math is a bit fuzzy (Arcana may know it but I doubt anyone else does), taunt is known to be a threat multiplier. If you sit there taunting something and don't damage it, you won't be able to hold aggro once the taunt effect wears off -- your big fat multiplier times zero is still zero.
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The most competent Tanker can only be one primary and one secondary at a time. People can have ideas on the best primary and the best secondary pairing and I will have ideas on where I can see them, what they could be up against and a team make up dying as a result of them not having taunt. The most competent being the one who has a glass half full versus something considered incredibly difficult despite being in a team of what arguably looks like pity spot takers.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Under those specific circumstances and standards, I can also prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the most competent Tanker won't be Fire (cannot reach top tier Tanker damage mitigation). Or Willpower (taunt aura duration).
Taunt may be a significant power in the tanker arsenal, but within the context of "most competent tanker" there are lots of other things that will prevent that from being true, that are options within the player's sphere of control. The question is whether that fact is material in a specific circumstance when all others are not. |
However as you say there are options that can be within the control of a player or players which makes taunt not a needed power. Therefore I am not arguing that everyone should have it, I am just of the opinion that the most competent wouldn't be without it yet even so, just because you have taunt and just because you know when and where to use it, it doesn't mean that all players will allow themselves to benefit from your use of it either.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Screw the math, I have not the foggiest how any of this crap works, I just know how it plays. |
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Finally, if given the choice between using Taunt and hitting with a high damage attack, Taunt may not always be the best option, especially taking Gauntlet into consideration. While the exact math is a bit fuzzy (Arcana may know it but I doubt anyone else does), taunt is known to be a threat multiplier. If you sit there taunting something and don't damage it, you won't be able to hold aggro once the taunt effect wears off -- your big fat multiplier times zero is still zero.
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In the modern game, it's simple: He Who Is Aggressive Wins The Aggro.
When I'm in the mood for serious tanking, it's the teams job to catch up to me. The main thing I use taunt for (when I bother with it at all) is to pop the next spawn at range.
If you're in there swingin', you're going to do just fine as a Tanker. 50 percent is just getting there first. 20 percent is positioning. 20 percent is situational awareness. The rest is keeping aggro.
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The most competent *PLAYER* will be the most competent Tanker in *ANY* situation, taunt or not. That's the whole idea of being 'most competent'...being better than anyone even under non-ideal circumstances...so technically, the most competent Player is the tanker without Taunt and cannot be out tanked by any Tanker that does use Taunt.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Even this quote doesn't counter the idea that the most competent Tanker will have taunt.
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The only thing for this 'most competent' Tanker to shoot for is being more competent than himself at its most effective state and under specific circumstances...at which point, you're probably a Mastermind or an Illusion controller.
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I might have replied to this, but I think the entire rest of the thread pretty much summed up anything I might have possibly said.
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Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
You can slot a more effective power equally well or almost as well with IOs Even if you could not:
Good Power> IO Benefits No amount of IO benefits can trump a good power which is why the Tanks/scrappers/Brutes who skip God Mode powers cause they think IO benefits can match them are just silly..... and a Tanker who takes Taunt but not his God Mode power is just straight up sad. Yesterday I even saw a Tanker with Soul Mastery who had Taunt but skipped Darkest Night....wow.....just wow.....sigh....... guess he justs likes to play low lvls cause a high lvls DN would be much better than Taunt...seriously. |
The way I see it a tauntless tank *can* work, but it requires an excellent player behind the wheel, whereas even a mediocre player can do the job if they have taunt. The problem I think most people have is that a large portion of the players that decide to skip taunt are not excellent players and so teammates that rely on them end up faceplanting.
I personally take taunt on all my brutes and tankers because it lets me be lazy. I can just jump to the back of the group and taunt the front and instantly I have all the aggro. This is especially useful at the levels before APP/PPPs are available and when my set's AoEs have a small radius. Honestly though, I think I use taunt more often when solo than when I'm on a team because of the -range and to grab runners. On a team I just let the blasters deal with runners but solo I can usually make them come back by taunting them.
I almost always join or lead PUGs and there have been several occasions where things went disastrously wrong directly because our tauntless tank couldn't hold aggro. The time that stands out the most is when we didn't realize our tanker was missing taunt till we got to Lord Recluse on an STF. We actually ended up failing because the only one who could stay alive was the tanker and he couldn't do enough damage to take out the towers by himself. Another time I remember was an ITF with 2 tauntless tanks, one of them kept running ahead to solo mission objectives and the other was not good at holding aggro. As a result our ITF that was advertised as a shard/xp run was done in record time and most of the team didn't have fun at all because they spent most of that time faceplanted and in the end they didn't have much more shards/xp than when they started.
The Most Interesting Man in the World:
"I don't always tank, but when I do, I take Taunt."
Seriously, with inherent fitness I usually have too many attacks to fit them into an effective chain anyway. I take taunt as part of the chain and throw a proc in it. If I skip taunt, what am I going to take in its place that is actually going to benefit me or the team? With inherent fitness I've already got Fighting, Speed, Leaping, and depending on primary/secondary, maybe Maneuvers as a LotG +recharge mule?
If a tank has more than 5 attacks they're not using some of them all that often and/or they are highly situational. I'm a soak: it's my job. Taunt lets me do that job better.
You have plenty of attacks, you ijits! Take Taunt and proc it! Then it IS an attack!
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My squishies with no aggro capability do better than most tankers with taunt pulling Siege and Nightstar in BAF, simply because the fools stay in front of the AV and keep taunting rather than taunt once then break LoS.|
Originally Posted by Ideon
So how well does a Tauntless Tanker do on stuff like pulling Anti-Matter to terminals in Keyes, or pulling Siege and Nightstar to the tennis courts in BAF, as well as alternating aggro with other Tankers due to the pulse hold thing, or pulling the Voids into Penelope Mayhem in MoM, along with the AV Bosses into Mother Mayhem? And what about the Underground, keeping the AVs facing away from 23 other people in the league? :3
Yeah, I think I'll keep Taunt, thanks. |
Pulling Anti-Matter to terminals is a simple matter of having a ranged attack (on brutes/tankers), as these get gauntlet. Gloom works fine on my SS/Fire brute.
Alternating aggro with other meleers in BAF is actually easier without taunt, as taunt lasts much longer than other aggro powers. Have you ever seen a league with competent meleers and nobody using taunt in a BAF? It's a beautiful thing. As soon as someone gets two rings, he jumps back, and literally a second later, the aggro has switched to someone else and he can hop back in safely.
No idea about MoM because I've never done it, but unless there's some special mechanic (i.e. must not damage the stuff being pulled or somesuch) I don't see any reason why taunt could do something a ranged epic couldn't.
Keeping AVs facing away in UG is a simple matter of being the first person to establish aggro and keep attacking.
The only time when all the above strategies break down is when someone else uses taunt. So, taunt is mostly useful to preempetively counter taunt, and, given the amount of horrendous tanker players out there, it's certainly useful.
Being stubborn that way I don't like to build specifically against player stupidity (especially as, as a result, the choices I'd make would be useless for solo play or playing with smart people). Well, okay, I'm fine building against my own stupidity, but I'm not wiping anyone's else bottom for them.
There are things that taunt can make easier, but semantics aside, there are no things taunt enable you to do that you can't do without. Mauk has it right when he says: "If you're in there swingin', you're going to do just fine as a Tanker. 50 percent is just getting there first. 20 percent is positioning. 20 percent is situational awareness. The rest is keeping aggro." It's really all there is to it.
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While I have and like using Taunt on my Elec/SM Tanker, this quote is something to remember. Since getting my Incarnates and S/L Def Softcap, I've found my Tanker can last against almost anything. I've found that he can grab and hold aggro quickly and reliably, even from other Tankers. However, when I'm spamming Stone Fist, Seismic Smash, Fault, and Taunt, Siege/Nightstar don't easily forget me - three times I've gone from 1 to 3 rings in an instant (the last time others got caught with me). Even when I jump away with two rings, they remember me for quite a while. Taunt is keeping their interest in me much longer than otherwise. I've learned that once a ring is on me, I don't use Taunt - I already have their attention just fine.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Alternating aggro with other meleers in BAF is actually easier without taunt, as taunt lasts much longer than other aggro powers.
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I'm not one to tell other players whether their Tanker should take Taunt. However, I will always do so myself, put at least one proc in it (when I can spare the slots), and enjoy my fast-recharging zero-endurance targeted-AoE aggro-drawing damage power. I'll also be confident in my experiments and experience which show that smart IO builds make Tanker T9 "god-mode" powers absolutely irrelevant.
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
Helllooooo blasters!
Look at your tank, now back at me. Back at your tank...now back to me.
Sadly, he isn't me...but if he picked up taunt, he could tank like me.
Look down, back up, where are we...were in a fight with the tank your tank could tank like.
What do you have? Back to me, I have it...it's that aggro from the mobs you pissed off. Look again...the mobs are now experience
Anything's possible when your tank tanks like a tank and not a scrapper
I'm on a horse
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Also, a tanker with taunt will make you feel so powerful it will blow your mind right in front of your face.
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Ahahaha...this is great!
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Helllooooo blasters!
Look at your tank, now back at me. Back at your tank...now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me...but if he picked up taunt, he could tank like me. Look down, back up, where are we...were in a fight with the tank your tank could tank like. What do you have? Back to me, I have it...it's that aggro from the mobs you pissed off. Look again...the mobs are now experience Anything's possible when your tank tanks like a tank and not a scrapper I'm on a horse |
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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But... but my mind... it's BEHIND my face... *head asplodes*|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, a tanker with taunt will make you feel so powerful it will blow your mind right in front of your face.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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I know some of the most competent players run a tauntless Tanker yet still I know they're not immortal. They are subject to game mechanics and without taunt are subject to them all the more. Alot of people will of been successful so far with tauntless Tankers but they need to consider just what they can tank and who for. Tank every AV for any team make up. Tank all the mobs. I like to strip myself of luxuries that some people won't even start an STF without. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The most competent *PLAYER* will be the most competent Tanker in *ANY* situation, taunt or not. That's the whole idea of being 'most competent'...being better than anyone even under non-ideal circumstances...so technically, the most competent Player is the tanker without Taunt and cannot be out tanked by any Tanker that does use Taunt.
The only thing for this 'most competent' Tanker to shoot for is being more competent than himself at its most effective state and under specific circumstances...at which point, you're probably a Mastermind or an Illusion controller. |
As a Tauntless Tank do you need someone stacking several CMs, Thaws or Clarities when you do Ghost Widow for a low damaging team? Do you rely on alot of Def buffs? Do you get Soul Stormed and not die because of a Res Shield? If you are Black Holed by Ghost Widow or Feared by Jack, or Placated by Mako were you always losing aggro? If your answer is yes then you are not being the most competent Tanker. If your answer along the lines of "well I can do on my <insert tank type here>" but not on my others then again you are not being the most competent Tanker. Not everyone needs a Tanker to cover all these bases at all times so again a Tanker with Taunt is not needed.
No MM or Illusion Controller can compare with the most competent Tanker either. We do have to look at the full umbrella of the Tanker role. So many other ATs can do an alternative job instead for most people that maybe a Brute or Scrapper would be better anyway.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
There are things that taunt can make easier, but semantics aside, there are no things taunt enable you to do that you can't do without. Mauk has it right when he says: "If you're in there swingin', you're going to do just fine as a Tanker. 50 percent is just getting there first. 20 percent is positioning. 20 percent is situational awareness. The rest is keeping aggro." It's really all there is to it.
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I can see exactly what you are saying right up until the last paragraph so I thought I just quote that part, it's alright in terms of getting things done providing you have adequate support. Tauntless Tankers, lets say its an Mo, are going to be more fine with relying on any of just one form of defenders or corrupter etc than others. I think that with Taunt on any type of Tanker you have the potential to be fine with anything, or infact get rid of whats most commonly considered "support" altogether. No AT is needed and we could not need any "support" toons at all in team. I quote "support" because I am referring to anything most people would consider support where as I would consider everything as potential support.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Firetank with Taunt has greater potential than a Firetank without in the tanking role.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, a tanker with taunt will make you feel so powerful it will blow your mind right in front of your face.
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Then replace the Firetank with anything else.
So you get:
Icetank with Taunt has greater potential than a Icetank without in the tanking role.
and keep going...
I'd like to see otherwise.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Seriously LMFAO on this! Too funny.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Helllooooo blasters!
Look at your tank, now back at me. Back at your tank...now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me...but if he picked up taunt, he could tank like me. Look down, back up, where are we...were in a fight with the tank your tank could tank like. What do you have? Back to me, I have it...it's that aggro from the mobs you pissed off. Look again...the mobs are now experience Anything's possible when your tank tanks like a tank and not a scrapper I'm on a horse |
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SERIOUSLY thinking about making this my Sig. Awesome, Will, just awesome.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Helllooooo blasters!
Look at your tank, now back at me. Back at your tank...now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me...but if he picked up taunt, he could tank like me. Look down, back up, where are we...were in a fight with the tank your tank could tank like. What do you have? Back to me, I have it...it's that aggro from the mobs you pissed off. Look again...the mobs are now experience Anything's possible when your tank tanks like a tank and not a scrapper I'm on a horse |
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When I say lieutenants, I meant the patron lieutenants, not his summon army powers, haha.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
He doesn't have lieutenents he has minions (he said so
 ). There is actually a way to tank all of them without relying on Unstoppable but "in part" relying alot on Taunt instead. Horses for courses, how do we want to do things? Ofc there would be especially as other sets can't get unstoppable. |
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So full of win.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Helllooooo blasters!
Look at your tank, now back at me. Back at your tank...now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me...but if he picked up taunt, he could tank like me. Look down, back up, where are we...were in a fight with the tank your tank could tank like. What do you have? Back to me, I have it...it's that aggro from the mobs you pissed off. Look again...the mobs are now experience Anything's possible when your tank tanks like a tank and not a scrapper I'm on a horse |
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.