An in-game conversation about tauntless Tankers
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-12-28 10:07 in Tankers
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I would tank most every AV for way longer keeping aggro off a team and keeping damage off of a very not for the win team too, increasing their survivability way better.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I still don't know what this means.
What is 'out tanking' anyway? That the foes I'm engaging will be aggroed onto whomever is 'out tanking' me? Well, control trumps aggro. I've been in numerous situations on my TW/WP Scrap where I just chain KD practically the whole spawn, just a matter of switching targets for your KD cones and a gracious helping of the PBAoE. The only situations where its the other way around is vs hard targets that can't be mezzed, in which case, you can out tank someone with this one power...yay? There's a reason the scaling AS buff was revoked which helped stalkers kill those hard targets faster...it wasn't very useful in most of the game. |
Like it or not I tanked the entire STF with a scrapper, with no support sets and this is repeatable. I can do the RV AVs without any support sets for a team using a Scrapper. I will go thru the entire list of Praetorians using a Scrapper so when it comes to Confront I am down with it let alone Taunt on a Tanker. You would have to defy game mechanics to offer the same level of plausible support with a Tauntless Tanker when without any support at all.
In my world I look at someones PB, they don't even have to have Glowing Touch, they'll do, I am now going to tank Ghost Widow for an unlimited period of time without worry of a Soul Storm or worry of being Black Holed, both of which a tauntless Tank could lose aggro. Scirroco the same. I'll see a Warshade or a Blaster and they'll suddenly be all it takes for support. Defenders, Controllers, they're great to have but no necessity.
Most teams do not need a Tanker. Most of them might believe that they do. Usually only when something really tough comes along where a Tanker would make things easier do Tankers become something you "could do with". No AT is a necessity and when these teams really can do with a Tanker often a tauntless one doesn't quite fit the bill for if it did then as eggs is eggs then its highly likely a Brute would be better or a Scrapper could of sufficed. Most Scrappers skip confront, half of all Brutes might skip Taunt, Taunt on a Tanker is really what seperates it from these other ATs which are literally up its backside in terms of doing the job for them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Slight tangent: in a sense, there isn't really any such thing anymore. Technically, you can cycle PA continuously, but there is no way to guarantee holding aggro when the PA refreshes because the current PA dismisses the old pets as it casts the new ones automatically. As a result, if the new ones don't attack instantly (and they don't always) the aggro from the old ones will dump to the controller by default. When tanking an offensively strong target, even a split second of aggro can be very hazardous.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
As far as single-target tanking with an expensive build, it doesn't get much more survivable than a perma-PA controller.
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The correct way to deal with that is to have the Phantasm cast its own decoy to cover the cutover, but if you just rely on luck its always possible for the Phantasm to be in the middle of recasting its decoy when the PA cuts over, and then you get shot in the face. The only way to *guarantee* never getting aggro is to watch the timing of the pets, and if you see you're in danger of falling into that gap, recast the Phantasm itself. One of the first things he'll tend to do is recast his decoy, so if you do this ten seconds ahead of PA expiry you can usually guarantee good aggro overlap.
In the days of *stacking* PA, Illusion controllers could basically hold aggro on a single target with zero threat. Nowadays, I haven't seen many Illusion controllers able to do that continuously. In fact I'm asked to do it so rarely these days that every so often I do something like go into Croatoa and practice holding aggro on the Jack/Eochai pair or set up an AE mission with a high AV just so I don't forget how to do it. In fact I *did* forget how to do this years ago on an STF (trying to tank LR with decoys) and that's when I realized I had to practice the timing every so often.
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Any power or any build, people either work well with it or they don't. Any Tanker, they all differ and what pleases people about Tankers differs.
All powers add some form of flexibility, in taking one power you miss out on a power that offers you something else.
I personally believe that in all the powers people take in a build there is always some power that was far more skippable than taunt.
I have every Primary, more than one of some. At no time did I find an excuse to skip it because of what pleases me.
Most of the people ingame for some reason or another prefer a Tanker with than without. You can usually make life alot easier for them and so they can for you.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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A well timed Hibernate can help mitigate the chance of failure there, too, though you do still have a small window of vulnerability.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The correct way to deal with that is to have the Phantasm cast its own decoy to cover the cutover, but if you just rely on luck its always possible for the Phantasm to be in the middle of recasting its decoy when the PA cuts over, and then you get shot in the face. The only way to *guarantee* never getting aggro is to watch the timing of the pets, and if you see you're in danger of falling into that gap, recast the Phantasm itself. One of the first things he'll tend to do is recast his decoy, so if you do this ten seconds ahead of PA expiry you can usually guarantee good aggro overlap.
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If someone else on the team eats pavement during the switchover... Well we needed a target to use Vengeance anyway, right? ;-)
I do remember one memorable STF where we ended up with two Illusion controllers. The leader was nervous because didn't have a tank, but I convinced them to go anyway. They successfully "tanked" buffed Recluse, staggering their resummons. I've also tanked Ghost Widow on a Blaster a couple times -- >softcap ranged defense, some Thaw or CM, and a quick trigger finger on the breakfrees and respites is all it takes. Both times it was an emergency swap when our tanker or brute got held and died repeatedly.
Of course these days the Incarnate trials are where the "high end" action is, but now you have a whole leagueful of teammates and nearly every buff is AoE.
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So, we're assuming the tank either:|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
How are you, the team's tank' going to get them off said troller if you cannot move because you have no avenue to move.
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1) Is running Rooted and/or Granite and did not take Teleport.
2) Has two broken legs.
Otherwise, why can't he move?
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Hit with a web grenade and can't jump over the enemies is the only reason I can think of...|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
So, we're assuming the tank either:
1) Is running Rooted and/or Granite and did not take Teleport. 2) Has two broken legs. Otherwise, why can't he move? |
/seconds the opinion that a Controller who can't manage to mez a couple of stray enemies beating on them is a liability.
I would say the speed of the team and whether they face AVs will dictate the tankers need for taunt.
I’ve seen some impressive displays of ‘tanking’ where the tanker simply stays ahead of the group. He/she darts ahead to absorb alpha strike as well as herd the mob into a smaller, tighter group. They don’t usually stick around to clean up the scraps of the battle but instead, run ahead to prepare the next mob for destruction. This is usually a steam roll type team and I don’t think the power taunt is essential to ensure this scenario plays out, but it does help.
In the event your team/task force runs into AVs it would be much nicer if the tank had taunt, in fact it could almost be the difference between success and fail of the team (depending on team strength of course). When I think of task forces like STF, LRSF, ITF, LGTF or Kahn a tank/brute with taunt plays a huge role of keeping the team alive (during the AV battles).
Personally I think taunt is a great power, and just so happens that Perfect Zinger and Mocking Beratement have great set bonuses. Essential power? No. Helpful power? Absolutely.
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You know Arcanaville; I respect your opinion, experience, and knowledge. However, I have to respectfully disagree that this about making a case for any primary power. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's a case for taking taunt. Now make a case for taking a primary other than Stone or Invuln, say. Or to put it more directly, make a case for not specifically avoiding Fire, if your goal is maximum tanking ability.
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I do not care what primary power you have as a tank. When you rely solely on the effects of a primary power, like Fire Armor, then something is wrong in my opinion. Tanking is not about how to maximize tanking ability, it is an attitude. I do not have one FA or IA tank in my fold. It is not that I do not like what they are capable for, I do. However, I like the challenge running a WP, SD, and Electric, Energy or Regen tanker offers.
Do I have a Stone tank? Sure do, have two of them, Stone/Stone & Stone/TW. They do not impress me at this point. Stone is to darn slow for my liking to be effective in an open battle. Conversely, in my opinion it lacks maneuverability in close quarters. Defense is more than who has highest defensive rating. Defense is the balance between defense, speed, damage capability, recovery, and regeneration abilities. This means not maxing out all your defensive capabilities in favor of a more balanced approach. You find the balance in that, and I believe you will find a better tank.
That is my approach for all my tanks, which are very successful for me. Moreover, so far, my staying ability has outlasted tanks that aren't balanced. Case in point, my Elect Armor/Energy Melee tank exemplared for the 'Save Statesman' (at +4x8 lvl) stood toe to toe with Tyrant's alter ego and took his best time after time and never faltered. However, the other tank and 2 brutes had to back off to recover or faceplant. In the end, I was able to put him down with Energy Focus. With performance like that, you will have a hard time trying to convince me slighting a few things for the sake of maximizing defensive capabilities is the way to go.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Not at all but people are claiming the best tankers have to have Taunt which is pure BS. If you play with a high damage tanker you will find it far harder to strip aggro off them than someone with average damage and Taunt. That has been tested and proven by this very forum.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Wow I guess you've got to be the best tanker in the game to never lose aggro or have the ability to snatch it back without a thought. My hat's off to you then.
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So the starting supposition about using Taunt to regain aggro once lost is broken. You can maintain higher threat levels through damage than Taunt. Again, tested and proven by this forum. This is why some scrappers and brutes can pull mobs off tanks. If you want to be King of Aggro Control you have to have the highest threat rating and the key to that is Damage.
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I'm very well aware that a Troller can do when it comes to aggro. I also know that those Trollers with healing ability like Empathy have to be close enough that healing aura is effective for the group as a whole. Therefore, being safe is not a luxury as you suggest when one starts using their other powers. Not unless you are suggesting that, the Troller should stand off in a distance to use their AoE powers. Then that denies the team the healing they may need.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That's one incompetent controller if they don't have a handle on their own aggro. If you weren't aware, a controller can *replace* a tanker's roll of aggro management by nullifying the aggro. That is, if I were playing a controller (I have 0 controllers), I'd make damned sure I am safe with my controls/debuffs before leveraging my AoEs. Then no one will be getting their face punched in.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
So what happens if I'm on a team that I *know* can't handle their own damned aggro because they are newbs or n00bs? Well, I'd pass them inspirations and tell them to use them. Then I'll proceed to keep the attention of as many foes as the cap will allow. Taunt can help if the foes are spread out enough, but then you're spending more time taunting than you are punching.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Sounds like your team needed more damage...maybe buffs that made the tank less reliant on heals or perhaps better control. If anything, your 'healer' defender would be just as likely to be kicked from my team if I were the leader.
You were not intelligent enough to manage your own aggro, relied on a Tanker who was dying, allowed yourself to be killed then put the rest of the team at a disadvantage. You'd have been better off letting the Tanker die and pull back to support the rest of the team, if you were, in fact, in over your head. A smart support character knows their limitations. But all in all, I wouldn't have kicked anyone. Obviously, fewer foes is what you needed, since the team was not capable of defeating the foes fast enough. Pulling, organized attack order, communication and caution would have been my orders (along with a change in difficulty after the mission was over). |
Tell you want Mr. Elitist; you suffer a ton of damage from out of nowhere as a Defender in less than 5 seconds and see how long you say on your feet. When you receive alpha strikes from half a dozen or more lieutenants and bosses because you tried healing, then talk to me about control, intelligence, and how you were able “able” to manage your own aggro while you were on your face. Because in that amount of time, I had no time to do anything but move then fall. However, if I were to base any assumption as to what you would say, I would expect you to respond in a similar manner. “That would be no problem for me because I am smarter than you.”
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I fail to see how Taunting would have made your defender a better contributor to the damage of the team. If you didn't have Fulcrum Shift, then you should have been blasting at least.
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Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Obviously, you have never been in a position where you are stuck and unable to move in any shape, form, or fashion. When you do, then you'll understand how it can happen. |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
So, we're assuming the tank either:
1) Is running Rooted and/or Granite and did not take Teleport. 2) Has two broken legs. Otherwise, why can't he move? |
BTW, have you done the Ray Cooling storyline yet?
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Obviously you're keen on making assumptions to support your arguments. I seem to understand the situation better than you, but it doesn't lead to the certainty and inescapable conclusions you espouse. You seemed to be claiming that you need to plan your build around being completely immobilized when that is actually a rare occurence.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Obviously, you have never been in a position where you are stuck and unable to move in any shape, form, or fashion. When you do, then you'll understand how it can happen.
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| BTW, have you done the Ray Cooling storyline yet? |
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And you are not? Please.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Obviously you're keen on making assumptions to support your arguments. I seem to understand the situation better than you, but it doesn't lead to the certainty and inescapable conclusions you espouse. You seemed to be claiming that you need to plan your build around being completely immobilized when that is actually a rare occurence.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
I've played every story arc in the game. Well, except the SSA released today.
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Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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You specifically said:|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
You know Arcanaville; I respect your opinion, experience, and knowledge. However, I have to respectfully disagree that this about making a case for any primary power.
I do not care what primary power you have as a tank. When you rely solely on the effects of a primary power, like Fire Armor, then something is wrong in my opinion. Tanking is not about how to maximize tanking ability, it is an attitude. I do not have one FA or IA tank in my fold. It is not that I do not like what they are capable for, I do. However, I like the challenge running a WP, SD, and Electric, Energy or Regen tanker offers. Do I have a Stone tank? Sure do, have two of them, Stone/Stone & Stone/TW. They do not impress me at this point. Stone is to darn slow for my liking to be effective in an open battle. Conversely, in my opinion it lacks maneuverability in close quarters. Defense is more than who has highest defensive rating. Defense is the balance between defense, speed, damage capability, recovery, and regeneration abilities. This means not maxing out all your defensive capabilities in favor of a more balanced approach. You find the balance in that, and I believe you will find a better tank. That is my approach for all my tanks, which are very successful for me. Moreover, so far, my staying ability has outlasted tanks that aren't balanced. Case in point, my Elect Armor/Energy Melee tank exemplared for the 'Save Statesman' (at +4x8 lvl) stood toe to toe with Tyrant's alter ego and took his best time after time and never faltered. However, the other tank and 2 brutes had to back off to recover or faceplant. In the end, I was able to put him down with Energy Focus. With performance like that, you will have a hard time trying to convince me slighting a few things for the sake of maximizing defensive capabilities is the way to go. |
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Let me ask you this then. Your tanking for your team, you're surrounded by a dozen plus foes, and you see your Troller under attack by a few of those who were pulled off of you by his/her own aggro. They start pounding the crap out of the troller. How are you, the team's tank' going to get them off said troller if you cannot move because you have no avenue to move. You do not have taunt, you're not close enough for your aura to work for you, so you cannot pull them towards you. Thus, your troller more than likely ends up face planting. This is what taunt is a very important tool to use. A person who knows how to tank, will not spam with taunt, they will use their powers to do that for them. However, should that type of scenario happen (and it does, happen to me this weekend) you can save your teammate from enjoying blissful sleep on the cold hard ground. Taunt is a tool that should be available for any tank to use if they need it. |
Here you seem to be making the case that every tanker primary has options that other primaries don't, so its ok if people take them. But I don't see you affording the same distinction to tauntless tankers vs taunt tankers. Are you saying you can make the case that every primary has valuable options the others lack, but no tauntless tanker could possibly have any valuable option a taunt tanker wouldn't make redundant? That seems to be a very high hurdle to achieve.
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I never said I couldn't understand how it might happen. I said it was ridiculous to structure your build around such an event as if it were a common occurrence.
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Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Then you should know exactly how you can be surrounded by an enemy and why you are not capble of moving or getting away from the encirclement they have you in.
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Taunt is in places resisted, sometimes its inaffective, but never is it always the case where hitting with an attack is it going to be better either. When it comes to damage you don't need every attack under the sun. You just need the best of them quick recharging. Most builds could afford to fit taunt in and still be damaging. Being damaging isn't the foremost important part of being a Tanker. No one invites a Tanker for their damage. Now I know that some people have seriously damaging Tankers, which would make the best tanks for people looking for PL but I can think of a fellow forumite in this section for one with one heck of an expensive and damaging build, I am not mentioning names but he still has taunt. He didn't skip taunt for some other actually skippable power like most people would. The thing with getting through anything in this game is that there is always luck involved, Taunt helps in that it can reduce how much chance of luck you want to give.|
Originally Posted by Jagged
Not at all but people are claiming the best tankers have to have Taunt which is pure BS.
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Some people don't ever do PuGs, they'll have their team mates and basically have everything they need to not need taunt. People can be that way but its not usually fully adaptable. Often the difference is shown when two of the team mates are gone and perhaps two people arrive without the same tools. I personally don't do design a team. Some people are "we need a <insert AT with powersets> here. Tankers with taunt don't have to be like that.
I think most people in the know can think up situations where a Tauntless Tanker have from their limitations helped get people killed, and on the other hand I can think up situations where Tankers with their taunt and how they used it got people killed, just because you have it doesn't mean you will use it wisely. I'll be fair, I can see where and why, to me having the choice of both worlds, of acting tauntlessly or using taunt with a bit of common sense or more than that, when necessary, is better.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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If the controller can (a) grab aggro and (b) manage not to control what he grabbed aggro from then one has to imagine the controller is trying to commit some fancy form of suicide and should be allowed to do so.
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Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Let me ask you this then.
Your tanking for your team, you're surrounded by a dozen plus foes, and you see your Troller under attack by a few of those who were pulled off of you by his/her own aggro. They start pounding the crap out of the troller. |
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So how well does a Tauntless Tanker do on stuff like pulling Anti-Matter to terminals in Keyes, or pulling Siege and Nightstar to the tennis courts in BAF, as well as alternating aggro with other Tankers due to the pulse hold thing, or pulling the Voids into Penelope Mayhem in MoM, along with the AV Bosses into Mother Mayhem? And what about the Underground, keeping the AVs facing away from 23 other people in the league? :3
Yeah, I think I'll keep Taunt, thanks. 
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Originally Posted by Ideon
So how well does a Tauntless Tanker do on stuff like pulling Anti-Matter to terminals in Keyes, or pulling Siege and Nightstar to the tennis courts in BAF, as well as alternating aggro with other Tankers due to the pulse hold thing, or pulling the Voids into Penelope Mayhem in MoM, along with the AV Bosses into Mother Mayhem? And what about the Underground, keeping the AVs facing away from 23 other people in the league? :3
Yeah, I think I'll keep Taunt, thanks. |
I think this post highlights part of the Taunt issue. All of these are iTrials. If you've gotten to 50 without Taunt, good for you. Now with Fitness inherent but with no added slots many players are finding it easier to take the extra power that isn't slot heavy. Taunt fits this role to a T.
I was just on a Tank (with Taunt) with a young player on his lvl 9 Blaster. My attack chain has gaps (Street Justice at lvl 27) so whenever everything was on cooldown I hit Taunt. The enemy never went near this kid despite his damage output. If he knocked someone off of me I'd Taunt them back (and later had a discussion about the use of KB in combat).
Like many powers Taunt has varied degrees of usefulness depending on your level. If I have it by lvl 15 or so everyone loves me because it's THE simplest way to avoid unwanted aggro at that level. By the 30s players are less concerned because they've soloed more and have developed better skills and powers to deal with aggro. By 50+ the player has (hopefully) mastered the idea of 'hey, YOU shot him...he's YOUR responsibility' and Taunt isn't as much in demand.
Quite simply there are other ways to get much of what Taunt provides. You want to pull? Ok, use your EPP blast. You want to get attention from the team? Fire off your MegaDeathAoE whatever. All of these things can be achieved without Taunt.
But Taunt is by far the easiest (one click), cheapest (slot-wise), surest (auto-hit) way to accomplish them. If you're a really good player and you can do all of the things you think your toon needs to do without Taunt then don't take it. If you want the simple, no-fuss 'Hey...OVER HERE!' method then Taunt can be fit into almost any build.
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I have not structured my build around such an event. I have found myself in the situation on more than one or two occasions pinned in place, especially when you are doing the entire Ray Cooling storyline until you go fight the Skyraiders. However, because I have taunt, I re-established aggro control before said teammate ended up face down.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
I never said I couldn't understand how it might happen. I said it was ridiculous to structure your build around such an event as if it were a common occurrence.
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I don't know, but from the overall attitude I've witnessed concerning taunt/no taunt and the purpose of a tank involved in a team is one of 'too bad for the teammate' if they are unable to handle this, that, or the other. That goes against my core value of what it means to be a teammate. That is, We all live and die together as we fight for one another in a common goal. Before you or anyone takes offense to that, it is not a judgment on anyone, just an observation. However, a number of people have exhibited this attitude.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Let's look at why I said that, shall we?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This sounds to me, and probably most everyone else reading, as if you are making the case that since taunt offers an option that you wouldn't otherwise have in a specific aggro scenario, that justifies other people saying that taunt is, in effect, if not necessary than difficult to justify not taking. If that isn't the case you're making, I'm not sure why you would mention it specifically.
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Originally Posted by Jagged
* For a very narrow "taunt-based" definition of "tanker".
Its a pretty trivial exercise for most tank primaries to aggro a cap-worth of mobs without Taunt. Once you've hit the cap you only become more capable by killing/arresting mobs and Taunt doesn't help you do that. Then there is the fact that damage + taunt beats Taunt. In my opinion this can make Taunt a crutch for lazy players. Spam Taunt a few times and everyone thinks you are doing your job? Not really. I would happily see Taunt removed from the game. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Here you seem to be making the case that every tanker primary has options that other primaries don't, so its ok if people take them. But I don't see you affording the same distinction to tauntless tankers vs taunt tankers. Are you saying you can make the case that every primary has valuable options the others lack, but no tauntless tanker could possibly have any valuable option a taunt tanker wouldn't make redundant? That seems to be a very high hurdle to achieve.
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Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
Tankers do not need Taunt. End of Story.
In nearly cases its better to take a power that helps you survive in the first place. You are only allowed 24 powers so why take Taunt when I can take Combat Jumping, Icicles, Permafrost, Fire Breath, Weave, Fault, Quicksand, Darkest Night, AOE Blast, Hasten instead.
I would never AND THE DARK AGE MEANS NEVER.. expect any AT to take a power that does nothing to increase their personal strength when each player is only allowed 24 powers. Only exceptions are a few certan buff ATs like an Empathy or something.
Guess what to Tankers who take Taunt... another Tanker/Brute took Weave or Hasten instead and is now more durable than you. Or Fire Breath/Fire Ball and now can hit more mobs than you. So you are a sucker..being selfless in a selfish world. So expecting Tankers to take Taunt is admission that you expect Tankers to be a FOOL or SUCKER. No strong player will buy into that bullcrap.
No good deed goes unpunished and this is certainly the case with selflessly taking Taunt since another Tanker/Brute took something else to increase their personal strength.. So dont you feel like a sucker lol
This debate is silly.
You know, you can slot Taunt with Perfect Zinger, or even Mocking Beratement, for S/L defense and global recharge. Rather good amounts of it, too.
Bottom Line is a Tanker needs to keep the attention of his enemies, not just be really durable. If he isn't going to do that, then I'd rather he be a brute or something.
Quote:
I'll agree this debate is silly, and every time it pops up in the forums it's always the same. But taking Taunt is hardly a punishment. I have tanks and brutes that have Taunt as well as Hasten and Weave or Fireball. |
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
Guess what to Tankers who take Taunt... another Tanker/Brute took Weave or Hasten instead and is now more durable than you. Or Fire Breath/Fire Ball and now can hit more mobs than you. So you are a sucker..being selfless in a selfish world. So expecting Tankers to take Taunt is admission that you expect Tankers to be a FOOL or SUCKER. No strong player will buy into that bullcrap.
No good deed goes unpunished and this is certainly the case with selflessly taking Taunt since another Tanker/Brute took something else to increase their personal strength.. So dont you feel like a sucker lol |
As a tanker, I know that taking Taunt can GREATLY increase my output when used properly. Taking aggro off the Kin in the team means he can keep boosting my damage to the cap (something I won't be doing for myself no matter what power I take). So, who's the sucker in that situation?
In the end folks, take it or don't. Just don't play like a ******. Or do. It's a free country.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Its a pretty trivial exercise for most tank primaries to aggro a cap-worth of mobs without Taunt. Once you've hit the cap you only become more capable by killing/arresting mobs and Taunt doesn't help you do that.
Then there is the fact that damage + taunt beats Taunt. In my opinion this can make Taunt a crutch for lazy players. Spam Taunt a few times and everyone thinks you are doing your job? Not really.
I would happily see Taunt removed from the game.
I don't have a very narrow idea of taunt. This what I see other people as having. However telling people how to use taunt is not something I see myself doing as its upto people to play their own way. If somebody has issue with Tanking something ingame its usually because they have limits. Limits I don't like. Limits most people don't like to see. I don't like limits at all which is why by and large if someone can't tank with their Tank then its wholly likely I would prove it can be done with a Scrapper at the same time removing all the support sets they failed to tank with, just to beat them over the head with how they could of done it.
Its almost like every now and then you have someone who comes to the Tanker section going against the grain with game mechanics thinking that someway somehow tauntless is better and there was that epic power which was somehow more important. I would like to see a Developer come along and say tauntless is better and then have them meet me ingame to prove it.
I really disbelieve it. It's only better if you are happier without taunt and despite whether or not you know what to do with it or not. I have never come across a tauntless tanker ingame that could do more than my tankers and actually have a 100% record of converting those who had. I am bound to find someone stubborn about it but overall on the whole taunt is an asset worth skipping some power for in my book.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.