An in-game conversation about tauntless Tankers

Yeah I think the reason is that if something is going to kb you if you have 4 pts, they are probably hitting you with a mag 10 kb anyway, making 8 pts useless. With a mag 12, I don't think I have ever been kb unless it was a scripted event.

(shrug) I contend that it is. Or, more accurately, CAN be. It could also be someone who is clueless, rather than someone who understands Taunt and chose not to take it.


Or it's someone who doesn't subscribe to your definition of the AT. Maybe they want an indestructible scrapper and damage isn't their priority.


Or not. You can manage a heck of a lot more than a 'modicum' of aggro control without taking Taunt.

I'd define that as someone who can do nearly anything with their character and/or if asked to perform a task, or simply sets himself out to do so, they can do so *AND* make it look easy. But simply being 'good' will make others of the same AT look 'not so great'.

I don't like to toot my own horn but, there are times when I play my Scrappers or Stalkers or Doms, I deliberately hold back if only because I'm having fun and I don't want to hog it all. I could be the 'Best Stalker/Dom' in the world and just make mince meat of a spawn, trivialize its aggro, take the alpha, so on and so forth, leaving little for everyone else (or selfishly solo stuff). But I prefer doing what I do while playing with a team.

In relation to Tankers, I don't see the reason to *need* to be the center of it all. Heck, even one of my Tankers (SD/DM) I consider a 'back up Tank' because I'd rather stick behind a Brute or Tank and buff their Def/debuff resists (I think, slotted, he can give nearly 18% def to all by just standing near someone, and like 21% if he throws Grant Invis on them).

But what I'm saying is, the best Tanker in the world isn't who hold the most aggro, but who's flexible to do a lot more and make it look simple. Taunt isn't a requirement to be that, but it can help.

PS: This thread hasn't made me want to play my Tankers, but my Blasters. It's been a few months since I last played one and I'm always out to prove to myself that I'm as self sufficient on a team as a Scrapper or other DPSer can be...and my other DPSers can be pretty damned self sufficient. Just made a red-side Dark/Energy Blaster on Freedom named Moon Foxx. We'll see where the journey leads.

As I posted on the Blaster Manifesto, Blasters are all about damage. Yet I have one with 3 Holds who had to serve as a pseudo-Controller fighting a weakened Hami when our other Controller Dc'd. I took those powers, and sacrificed some damage output, because I wanted them in my build. They suited how I play. In this case, the team was grateful I had them.

You cannot, or at least should not, try to build any character to only do one thing or suit one playstyle well if you plan to team. If your team is fixed and plays the same toons every week then sure, you do what your role requires. But how many of us have been on teams as a Tank where we felt useless because the spawns melted so fast? I've been on teams as the only Tank where, honestly, ANY character would have done just as well or better because they were rolling without me. I didn't add anything significant to the team. So whether or not I had Taunt was a moot point. I've been on other teams where if I hadn't tanked they would have died, hands down.

Are there circumstances that turn out badly where Taunt might have helped? Sure there are. Are there times when you wished you'd taken the OTHER power instead because it would have been really handy right now? Sure there are. But this does not mean that Taunt is a basic requirement of Tanks IMHO. Handy? Sure. Necessary? I don't think so.

Oh, I really like that suggestion!

I think otherwise, taunt is a requirement to be most flexible.

Do anything with any team is my motto, no exceptions, so when I give you an Icetank and 7 Blasters I expect you to tank the inner circle and live.

Like jumping into the middle of 24 Vampryi dishing out hate, pain, and discontentment as I did last night during our Moonfire TF waiting for the group to catch up? Thought I would face plant until our lead defender filed in behind me and healed me. In the end, the rest of the team showed up to take them out with me. Much fun was had by all.

Two things to me, the fact that your blaster does some control means you are being more about what Blasters are actually about, and thats damage/support. They never were, all about damage from day one. On the website in the early days they are said to be range and support, in rl blasters provide can provide cover which we use as suppression which causes less damage. So from word go, blasters emulate such things, you can turn them into the AT they're not when that particular AT would be useful to others for making their aoes more efficient, be they debuffs or damage.

Secondly taunt isn't necessary until you are doing that one thing with a lack of somebody else who is necessary to make taunt unnecessary. I don't personally approve of that. You go into something you better bring the tools needed to get it done, because if you want something done then you are better off able to do it yourself.

There are 3 builds people can have, or atleast 2 builds. With an SO build I could go into RV, tank Ghost Widow, Scirroco and Mako together in melee past the 12mins unaided, now that's long enough for an all damage team to sort out, then I could go do Lord Recluse if you wanted and Black Scorpion. This says "second build doesn't have to be expensive".

I am completely lost on the relevence here.

You said in your expectations:

To which I replied:

As a direct example of what you spoke of.

Hrm.

If we're factoring Incarnate powers into the equation...

Ice Tank soft capped with Rebirth...

Blasters with a mix of Rebirth, Ageless and Barrier...

Yea, I can see taking on Recluse's Inner Circle and Recluse himself with little problem.

Especially if you have Lore pets as well

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You don't dictate what a team does by its make up. Pure and simple.

Just because you have a Brute doesn't mean he can jump in as a substitute tank. Just because you have 2 defenders doesn't mean either will have any type of healing for you to use as a crutch.

If there's 7 Blasters on a team and I'm one of them, I'm going to adjust my play to compensate, most likely timing my damage with the others to take down hard targets before they can react or lean heavier on the control/debuff to make it safer.

Nowhere in that formula is 'Taunt'.

So stop trying the whole 'those blasters are gonna die!' BS to justify it.

You're relying on you, being the blaster in the situation. Hard targets can react with anything at any time. Tank relies more on luck with less options.

That's not you relying on you to be the Tanker in that situation.

The team make up in my opinion dictates what a Tanker can do, not the other way around.

Can you take a tauntless Tanker up to the Inner circle for 7 blasters and survive with a tauntless SO'd Icetank?

I can think of how easily 8 blasters can deal with the inner circle without the Icetank.


You use the words "just because you" generally in a reply to me, you means me. Yes, anything pre incarnate, I would take over tanking with any Brute and yes I would do without healers, I don't use healers as a crutch nor fear tanking anything for any specific defender. Tauntless Tankers have limits, they're easily exposed ingame.

Tankers with taunt, well built whatever limits they might have in comparison isn't worth note at all.

Ultimately a Dev, statement from years ago going something along the lines of being better off with than without stands out and only needs to be the point worth making.

I am going to do that without incarnates, an SO'd build and no pets, using a Scrapper, my point is, a second build, a cheap build with taunt can have additional flexibility to "simply get pretty much all Tanking jobs done".

I mention actually tanking for seven blasters and you're mentioning doing something with a defender. I have a different idea of prospects.

Right, because only you can rely on you. Unless they're friends you know and trust, you can't rely on them having specific capabilities outside of basic function. And if they are friends, and they chose a different path than what you'd suggest, then you're just going to have to try something else, aren't you?

No, I'm talking about in the general sense. Rephrased, if I'm on a team and the only melee is a Brute, I don't expect that Brute to tank if that isn't what he wants. Depending on the level or the AT, I'll think of other means to get the same goal.

Just like my Blaster not needing a meatshield to survive, my Tanker doesn't need taunt to be a meatshield. That is the beauty of CoX, you don't need a specific team make up to work, nor does a character need a specific make up to succeed.

My comment was directed toward the mentality of "We need a healer" rather than "We need to play smarter" that I've heard from various teams. Same with the whole "We need a tank" mentality. I'm of the mentality of "Work with what ya got" and it works. And it's fun.

No, a Tanker does not need taunt. Nor do they need to be spec'ed to tank any and all manner of foes. No one holds Blasters or Masterminds or Scrappers to these ridiculous standards of needing to be able to drop all minions in 2 clicks, able to solo AVs or solo +2/x8 spawns in their sleep so not seeing why anyone is holding Tankers to the stupid standard of *requiring* taunt...especially when your inherent does the same thing.

The whole point in me having taunt is so everyone else can build what the hell they like and at the same time I have the best option for certain outcomes. It's a complete round and round win/win. I am late to reply cos I been playing other games

I am relieved by Brutes not tanking myself as they can cause more problems if they don't know what they're doing. Everyone can only deal with X amount/time. My motto was you pull it you tank it. If I am on a Brute then I have to tank if necessary otherwise keep things organized and on the Tankers terms whilst keeping fury up.


I don't know if people are getting the wrong vibe from me. I am not saying you need taunt to tank. I am not saying you need taunt to be a meatshield. I am saying Taunt adds flexibility and doesn't have to take any away. I've seen Tankers without taunt yet have something stupid like Acrobatics, now some min/maxxers won't do something as arguably bad as that but often there could be some slight tweak and an attack can be dropped for it.

What does annoy me, is when people are overly confident without taunt like, someone might say "For those of us who know what we are doing we don't need it". I've seen that in the past, then the same someone has new content and is like "OMG it can't be done" in another thread. If people want to not experiment with a power in order to save the world by any means, that's down to them, but don't act like it's better in general. The general opinion says otherwise.

I don't hold people to needing taunt. What I will maintain though is that generally you can be "potentially" better off with, than without. No accuracy check, great threat multiplier, range beats travel (and herd breaking), no endurance cost, you can position yourself tactfully, interestingly correct taunt:rechg:range ratio, it already had it all and then they give it -range and a damage proc to convince people. Overall teams are and I will keep saying potentially better off/more confident with a Tanker who has taunt. I can team with a tauntless Tanker with my Blaster, but usually my DPS needs to be lowered as a result which is detrimental. Often someone else on another AT, covers the hole that is open, which is cool about this game but I am with Bruce Lee on this, use no way as way and have no limitation as limitation. Tankers without taunt generally do one thing, run in, hit it, not all other classes are designed to support that versus everything. The TBAoE debuff toggles works reasonably well, mostly, particularly until you exemp below it. I'd want that and taunt. I have to say potentially, as I will endorse the power but you can't tell everyone what to do with it.

Be sure to drink your

I got a Firetank which is one out of 3 or 4 firetanks XD what was never meant to come out of an AE fire farm, no knockback protection whatsoever or any regard to defense because she caps Fire and heals quick, the other week I went and pve'd her through that AV list you need for accolades, +3 Nightstar, stuff like that, having no KB protection was one thing but cos I had taunt I still did it better than I would of normally imagined infact. No KB prot is a cardinal sin to some people whilst its okay to not have taunt but in this case the reverse was more true.

Sorry, Dr. Gemini - I'm certainly not trying to "attack" you, but the idea you show here - that there is some preconceived idea as to what role a tank should play. That role should be, and is, left to the players imagination.

If in fact a tanker "should" have taunt, then it should be inherent. (And, in a sense, given punchvoke, it is.) That's not to say that I think tanks should feel free to not have taunt - I play squishies, too. I notice a difference in the damage I take when I don't hear a tank taunt.

For me, a tank without taunt is like an ice blaster without freeze ray. It's not necessarily critical to have, but it makes the job easier.

So basically, you hold Tankers to the standard of taking taunt to let others build/play as whatever. This is the same lunacy as the 'we need a healer' mentality, but you just don't. Get. It.

A tanker with taunt isn't a free ticket for everyone to play willy-nilly. It's not some godsend power that fixes everything. It's nice, but it just doesn't. I'm not even going to touch the other part about not wanting Brutes to tank. But for context, I wasn't talking about a Brute tanking in a Tanker's stead, but the Brute being the primary melee on a team.


What someone takes in place of taunt is their business. They could take Acrobatics (because hey, not every player has access to IOs and not every player avoids Dark Armor and Fiery Aura), or Spring Attack or the various teleport powers for their convenience. You soil your opinion with your generalizations.

And if I were to ever make a Titan Weapons Tanker, I wouldn't want to drop *ANY* of the attacks...but I'd sure drop taunt.

You don't seem to get it!


I have already stated that just because someone has taunt doesn't mean they will know what to do with it. You are making me repeat myself.

There are reasons to take Acrobatics even for Tankers, however usually someone does for the wrong reasons.


I'll make my point even more clearer.

NO ONE WITHOUT TAUNT WILL FIND THEMSELVES THE MOST CAPABLE TANKER IN THIS GAME.

And I'd be sure enough able out tank your Titan Weapon Tanker without breaking a sweat.