Just a thought here...
Take a look at dominators and the role they play in the game... To me they provide all around good crowd control, ranged damage, and melee damage! They are balanced (rarely overpowerd except a few sets might perform higher than others) and don't step on too many toes while still providing a strong soloable character! What if instead of balancing this new class against a blaster or scrapper, we look towards something to pair up with a dominator!
So with that mindset in mind I propose this...
CLASS NAME: X (I don't care what its called)
PRIMARY: Assault (.75 damage scale to both melee and range... could tweak depending on balance)
SECONDARY: Armor (.65 to .75 of Tankers?)
INHERENT: This power will be a toggle inherent that functions alot like Rise to the Challenge or Invincibility, in that it detects enemies nearby and provides bonuses (and limitations) depending how many are within its aura. Basically, when there are 0 enemies nearby, the power will provide a damage bonus to all powers, but decrease defense and resistance numbers... As more and more enemies enter the aura, the defense and resistance numbers will increase and the damage bonus will go down! There will also be a slight taunt aura in effect (not able to pull from the true tanks and brutes, but strong enough to keep aggro off of squishies) Tweak the numbers however you want to balance this class...
Basically, the purpose of this class is to be a solid ranged damage dealer during most gameplay, but if crowd control is needed, the aura will allow this class to grab aggro off of squishies and take the fire without faceplanting (much like how a dominator can provide damage and extra crowd control in team situations as well)
Just a thought for everyone...
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Originally Posted by Scientist
Putting a shield in the hands of *anyone* requires extensive animation work, even if they don't retool the powers in the set. Think of how many blast animations use both hands. Covering them in ice or fire or rock can, to some extent, be done with auras, if all you want is a theme for a character concept. Actually porting armor sets over would require at the very least rebalancing, if not more animation work on top of it.
So lets look at the numbers the devs consider balanced for ranged characters, ones with a wide variety of themes available, which admittedly HEATs and VEATs don't have so much of. Blaster - high damage, limited mezz protect (Defiance T1/T2 attacks), no in-set armor (until epics). Blast/sonic corruptor - medium damage, full mezz protection, 11.25% base resistance (Sonic Dispersion). Sonic/blast defender - low damage, full mezz protection, 15% base resistance (Sonic Disp). We will ignore anything else in the sonic set, so you can avoid gimmicks. You can pick any point in that survivability/damage spectrum of blaster <-> corruptor <-> defender for your hypothetical AT to lie. Where would you like it to be? Given that the lowest damage corruptors probably overlap with the highest damage defenders, and the lowest damage blasters aren't terribly far from the highest damage corruptors, it may be a rather narrow window. |
I will reply to this line of thought one last time.
Defender/corruptor buff and debuff sets are not balanced based soley on what they do for that particular characters dmg output. And also, the dmg output of those AT's is not balanced soley on what can be done for that character with the buff and debuff sets.
buff and debuff sets are balanced based on what they can do for a team. Defender dmg and corruptor dmg is also balanced with team buff AND personal dmg output in mind. It is not as black and white as everyone here makes it out to be.
buff and debuff sets are really the tank mage sets. Look what a team of defenders or corruptors can do with a slew of force multipliers. Look at the results of some of the super teams that have been put together. The repeat offenders, I think the largest SG in the game(or it used to be anyway if it isnt anymore) was founded on that very idea.
1 defender is not a tank mage. it's not even all that powerful. 8 defenders= breaks the game difficulty. This is why direct comparisons of dmg output between blasters/corruptors/defenders fails to grasp the entire scope of balance.
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Well, it could be argued that giving such an AT damage close to Blaster & Scrapper levels would invalidate Blasters and Scrappers. So you move the damage down so as not to tread on their toes. Way down, of course, because it has to be significant difference.|
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
Rangle - Eldagore mentions Tankmages in his original post. He points out that he's not asking for something overpowered, but balanced, so as not to tread on Blaster's or Scrapper's, or anyone else's toes.
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But the OP doesn't want it to be as low as Defender damage, because we already have those. So we move it back up a bit.
And he's less interested in team use of this proposed AT -- it's mostly solo damage he's looking for.
Well, Defenders already get a 30% damage bonus solo.
It would be possible to alter the damage to a finer balance point, I suppose, but is it really necessary to make a new AT for that?
edit: I see the OP has considered this line of thought and rejected it, for reasons I don't really understand.
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
A ranged scrapper with armor..reminds me of the several claws/xxx builds where they would only take ranged claws attacks (outside of the ones you have to take) and the ranged attacks from epic pools.
"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)
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This is a good idea. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
A reverse MM of some sort. Instead of pets doing the damage, you do the damage and pets buff you. Call it Protector or something. .
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I also really want a "Summoner" Class that focuses more on the synergy, combos and interaction between you and your single pet. I would call it Puppeteer or Doggleganger. Basically you summon a clone of yourself (EAT Clockwork?
), and you two share similar powers. You have a mix of range/melee and some defense (not too much since there are two of you). An example would be: Your clone attacks and puts a "debuff" on the target for 2-3s. If you use the same attack before the debuff expires, you also heal yourself for a small amount. Basically you have access to a lot of debuffs, buffs and healing but it has to be done in conjunction with your clone/shadow.
I know it sounds complicated but the current Mastermind is more like one master commands an army. I want a summon class that I need to "interact" with.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I'd play that. Very cool.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
An example would be: Your clone attacks and puts a "debuff" on the target for 2-3s. If you use the same attack before the debuff expires, you also heal yourself for a small amount. Basically you have access to a lot of debuffs, buffs and healing but it has to be done in conjunction with your clone/shadow.
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Heh, even a little creative slotting with a claws or spines scrapper will do it, though only with hellishly restrictive concepts.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
If all it took to make a tank Mage was defenses and long range attacks, WS, Crab, Fort would all be tank mages.
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Given that spines is at least reasonably balanced, and that it's basically an assault set, I've never understood why there couldn't be other assault sets ported over. Sure, change them just a bit if needed, Blaze might be a bit much... but really? I'd love to make an X/dark scrapper, where x was a non-spines assault set.
I'd guess that more than a few others would as well, even with potentially very mediocre (for a dps build) ST damage.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Inherent aside, that looks like a gimped PB to me.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Alright...this is my somewhat serious attempt at what a Ranged/Defense AT could look like.
Blapper HP Base: 1017.4 HP Max: 1606.4 Damage Scale: .700 Range Scale?: assuming blasters are 1.00...blappers would be .75 (meaning that if a blasters attack has a 100' range, the blappers attack would have a 75' range) "defense" scale: .5 (Tankers are 1.00 and Scrappers are .75) (Regen and WP would have to be looked at more closely) No knockback protection. No Mez Protection Toggles. (armor set toggles or clicks that currently have mez protection now grant a bonus to the Blappers Inherent ability) Toggles will be dropped if mezzed. (not just surpressed...except for current mez protection toggles-see inherent ability) Inherent Power: Blapping All attacks executed on an enemy within the melee damage range of 7' or less adds .5 mez protection (hold, stun, sleep) that lasts for 5s. Stackable. 3 points of protection max. Each additional attack restarts the 5s timer. Current armor toggles that offer mez protection offer the Blapper a bonus to Blapping. All attacks executed with in the melee damage range of 7' or less now adds 1 mez protection that lasts for 5s. (so instead of taking 6 attacks to get to the 3 point max...it only takes 3. |
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So instead of saying how bad it is...why not offer a change to make it better and more balanced?
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
Inherent aside, that looks like a gimped PB to me.
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Whoops, I appear to have dropped a sack containing non-sequential dollar bills in your general vicinity. Clumsy me!
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Also, here is Von Krieger's idea for a Hellfire Elementalist EAT. While it's not exactly the same request, he has an interesting take on how to make a range/armor AT.
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Originally Posted by reiella
Until I see something that states to the contrary, going to assume VK is right
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To the op, I say ignore the nay-sayers. If nothing else, they have forgotten the true creed behind proposing new things - more options is always a good thing! I'm behind you 110% but I'm also not afraid to call this AT what it really is: a tankmage. A balanced tankmage! I'll post more of my thoughts on it when I come back from work.
As far as people arguing numbers, a ranged damage AT would need to do something closer to 1.00 scale. It shouldn't do so much as to overshadow the point of Scrappers and Blasters, but by virtue of it having Aim type powers and not Build Up it would already do less. People saying it should do closer to 0.75 or 0.7 (which is less than a Corruptor) don't seem to realize how low that is. And really, why would you play a Corruptor-damage AT that is just a bit harder to kill than a Blaster when you could just make a Corruptor with a good support secondary? The right Corruptor secondary would already give you great survivability and you'd probably do more damage through -RES and +DMG.
Consider that Fortunatas are already range/defense and their damage scale is 1.00 without an inherent that adds damage. And they still get mez and team buffs on top of it. A range/defense AT would most likely need a decent damage scale.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Damn...|
Originally Posted by plainguy
I would like a mastermind in which your one pet gets buffed and becomes stronger and stronger with each upgrade. Basically 1 super pet.
OR How about a sidekick.. Again same concept as the pet but he, she, it levels up as you do. Its one level lower then you. You basically use the costume creator to create the look for your sidekick. Sidekicks would come in different categories. Tank, Scrapper, Controller, Blaster, ETC. Maybe you could control the sidekick. For example your a Martial Arts toon with a MA sidekick. You click a hold power in your tray and your sidekick then goes and puts or attempts to put your target into a full nelson or whatever this now allows you to hit that target for extra damage. Maybe you want to be a fire blaster demon with a fire tank or brute demon side kick. 2 Soldier range blasters where instead of you doing full auto your side kick opens up with some large machine gun rambo style. Nutshell they do the standard npc fight chain until you command them to do some key attacks. |
I want both things!!!
I always wanted to make a mage-like character that is able to summon One Big Elemental...
Think about it... the Primary set gives only 1 attack (very basic, tier 1) and summons/buffs/upgrades the Pet.
The secondary can be a mesh of powers, like some of the support sets (((looks at Time Manipulation))).
Now imagine that the Summon Elemental has a selection style like the ammo thing on Dual Pistols. So according to what you used to bring your elemental, it is Fire (representing Fire), Smashing (representing Earth), Cold (representing Water) and Electric (representing Air), with secundary effects of burn (small dot, fire), KB (earth), slow (water), end-drain (Elec).
Can I have it now?
and now?
and now?
and now?
and now?
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
I want a ranged AT with only strengths and no weaknesses from level 1 through level 50, without having to use IO's or cooperate with teammates to gain those strengths and avoid those weaknesses. I don't want the AT to be too strong though, but it certainly shouldn't be weak.
I want this AT to have access to all ranged damage powersets, but let's face it what I really want is to use the most damaging ranged damage set because anything else is meh. But the AT can't be too strong, I have to emphasize that again, and it can't be too weak, either.
I also want this AT the have access to all defense sets, but what I really want is to use the strongest defense set because the rest of the sets are meh. Remember, I don't want the AT to be too strong, I must continue to emphasize that, but it can't be too weak, either...
So you're saying I can't be a stone armor fire blaster? Spoil sport!
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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No, no, he's saying that's all you'll be, but you mustn't be too strong or too weak while doing it.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
So you're saying I can't be a stone armor fire blaster? Spoil sport!
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In some ways the OP reminds me of a more generalized, less narrowly focused Johnny_Butane.
Basically he wants a tankmage that can be made with no effort or restrictions on theme. There are plenty of ways to do that before the late thirties, but they all require too much work.
Despite his denials what it really comes down to is that the OP wants a ranged Scrapper.
And if he gets what he wants i'll make one too, but i won't bother pretending that it's anything but what it is.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Ranged brute would be closer. No tankmage though. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
No, no, he's saying that's all you'll be, but you mustn't be too strong or too weak while doing it.
In some ways the OP reminds me of a more generalized, less narrowly focused Johnny_Butane. Basically he wants a tankmage that can be made with no effort or restrictions on theme. There are plenty of ways to do that before the late thirties, but they all require too much work. Despite his denials what it really comes down to is that the OP wants a ranged Scrapper. And if he gets what he wants i'll make one too, but i won't bother pretending that it's anything but what it is. |
Survivable close to scrapper/brute: somthing like that. But it would appear the arguments here stem from people that can not wrap their head around the idea of total survivability as a sum of components.
I do NOT want ranged attacks ON TOP OF brute and scrapper armor levels. The range would be A PART OF, or if you want it more simply IN PLACE OF SOME OF the armor values. The devs have been saying range is defense for 7 years. It should not be an issue then to take an armor set and reduce it by the appropriate amount to accomodate this "range is defense" value.
Brutes do good dmg. not at first though. In fact, at first they do really pathetic dmg. it ramps up from fury. where does fury come from? Some from attacking, but that only gets you so far. the really good dmg output comes from relatively high fury, which really only comes from putting yourself in a high risk situation. So, RISK=REWARD. This AT wouldnt deviate from that.
All this tankmage blather is really just hyperbole and strawman garbage.
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3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
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93496 A Pawn in Time
This thread so far:
Downtown at the car dealer......
Me: So I was looking at this sedan. I Like how it drives, and fits my needs- but this color just isn't what I want. Never was a fan of red.
Salesman: Well thats a good choice. That sedan has been a good seller for us.
Me: Well, I would like to buy one. does it come in twilight blue mica?
Salesman: Sorry, if you want blue this sedan only comes in sky blue.
Me: Darn. I really dont care for sky blue. I see you sell that truck in twilight blue.
Salesman: Yes we do, it is a popular color.
Me: Well, can't I get this sedan in that color?
Salesman: Haha, heavens no. If we sold this sedan in twilight blue, it would overpower all the other colors and we would sell all sedans in just twilight blue then.
Me: lolwut?
Salesman: Cant you just buy the truck? I think what you want already exists as this truck here.
Me: errr...no, that truck really isnt anything like this sedan.
Salesman: gah. just admit it. What you really want is a Ferrari. Because if we sold a twilight blue mica sedan, it would be a Ferrari and then everyone would just buy the Ferrari and no one would buy a sedan or truck.
Me: Uh.... well, no I really just like the sedan and I like twilight blue.
Salesman: This is pointless, I dont see why you just can't buy the truck.
Me:..........
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Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
Quote:
You can't be a stone armor claws brute either.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
So you're saying I can't be a stone armor fire blaster? Spoil sport!
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Stone Armor is just full of disappointments, really...
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Despite his denials what it really comes down to is that the OP wants a ranged Scrapper. |
), able to give 'em just what they're looking for every time...
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Oh yes. So true.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You can't be a stone armor claws brute either.
Stone Armor is just full of disappointments, really... Don't you just love how those people with ESP, able to tell exactly what you're thinking or what they want. I bet you're a hit with the ladies (or guys, however you swing ), able to give 'em just what they're looking for every time... |
A big round of applause, ladies and gents, he'll be here all day. (No one else will take him.)
Try the veal.
(True, i did make the base error of thinking that someone's posts on a topic might give some insight into their thoughts about it, possibly even some of those not expressly stated. Strange, really. Of course that doesn't mean i'm completely accurate, and i may misconstrue some things, but not having any ESP yourself you have absolutely no way of knowing my thoughts on the matter either, yes? In fact i might suggest your characterization was completely thoughtless.)
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Actually I was thinking about this last night- granite could be a problem.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
So you're saying I can't be a stone armor fire blaster? Spoil sport!
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1.) I do not know if all animations would be possible in granite form. At least i do not know how a rock monster would have the dexterity in the hands to hold a bow and arrow or machine gun. this could be dealt with the same as melee sets- disable the ones that dont work.
2.) and more importantly, the balances to granite may be overcome to easily. brutes can deal with the -dmg with fury. Sure, granite brutes do less dmg then others, but I have never heard a granite brute complain about it. Fury can compensate for the -dmg quite handily.
The -rech would still work as intended i think.
The movement penalty. This would be a big issue, as ranged attacks negate this for the most part. Who cares if you cant get into range to punch the foe- you dont need to, you just shoot him.
So yeah, granite would need new penalties, or at least some of them replaced with others because of the nature of the AT.
I think sheilds could potentially be an animations problem too, though in this case AR and BR and archery would be disabled anyway as 2 handed weopons. I do not know the mechanics of shields animations to know if they would interfere with regular blasts though. I wouldnt think so as some of the animations can be found in epic pools, but I do not know for sure.
Anyway, as I thought about it, I decided rather then hold up the AT because of one power in one set, or animation issues, the At could be released without these sets available and then they could be proliferated later if the devs chose. That would allow them to put off the issues until more test time or more time to deal with the issues was available. Sort of like how energy melee got stuck down at the bottom of the list to proliferate to scrappers because of fears of critical energy transfer. Or how ninjitsu got bumped down because it would require new powers be added because of hide.
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Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
Quote:
Trouble is, you're not asking for a car in a new color. We can do that now with color customization. |
Originally Posted by Eldagore
This thread so far:
Downtown at the car dealer...... Me: So I was looking at this sedan. I Like how it drives, and fits my needs- but this color just isn't what I want. Never was a fan of red. Salesman: Well thats a good choice. That sedan has been a good seller for us. Me: Well, I would like to buy one. does it come in twilight blue mica? Salesman: Sorry, if you want blue this sedan only comes in sky blue. Me: Darn. I really dont care for sky blue. I see you sell that truck in twilight blue. Salesman: Yes we do, it is a popular color. Me: Well, can't I get this sedan in that color? Salesman: Haha, heavens no. If we sold this sedan in twilight blue, it would overpower all the other colors and we would sell all sedans in just twilight blue then. Me: lolwut? Salesman: Cant you just buy the truck? I think what you want already exists as this truck here. Me: errr...no, that truck really isnt anything like this sedan. Salesman: gah. just admit it. What you really want is a Ferrari. Because if we sold a twilight blue mica sedan, it would be a Ferrari and then everyone would just buy the Ferrari and no one would buy a sedan or truck. Me: Uh.... well, no I really just like the sedan and I like twilight blue. Salesman: This is pointless, I dont see why you just can't buy the truck. Me:.......... |
What you're asking is for the auto dealer to talk to the car manufacturer into making a Hummer into a Formula One Race car, while still keeping it as sturdy as a Hummer of course. This way you can go as fast as the other Formula One cars, but you can also drive over them if they get in your way. Heck, why bother with taking the turns when you can drive right over the barriers...
Of course you want it in Twilight Blue Mica.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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FWIW, wouldn't a Force Field Defender be close to what you're wanting? You'd have your defense while being able to use different ranged attacks? And you could make it in Twilight Blue!
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I wouldn't be against having a Fire Blast/Fiery Aura character!
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
So lets look at the numbers the devs consider balanced for ranged characters, ones with a wide variety of themes available, which admittedly HEATs and VEATs don't have so much of.
Blaster - high damage, limited mezz protect (Defiance T1/T2 attacks), no in-set armor (until epics).
Blast/sonic corruptor - medium damage, full mezz protection, 11.25% base resistance (Sonic Dispersion).
Sonic/blast defender - low damage, full mezz protection, 15% base resistance (Sonic Disp).
We will ignore anything else in the sonic set, so you can avoid gimmicks. You can pick any point in that survivability/damage spectrum of blaster <-> corruptor <-> defender for your hypothetical AT to lie. Where would you like it to be?
Given that the lowest damage corruptors probably overlap with the highest damage defenders, and the lowest damage blasters aren't terribly far from the highest damage corruptors, it may be a rather narrow window.