New Archtype

Me?

Not every concept I want to play requires ranged attacks. Not to mention Titan Weapons wouldn't be an option for this AT.

However, this still leads me to want what I call the Combat Specialist AT.

Primary: All Weapon Sets (Melee and Ranged) excluding Crab Backpack, Martial Arts and Street Justice and maaaybe Super Strength as it has some moves people can consider boxing style, though I'd likely lose some of it's abilities.

You can choose from the various branches what attacks you want, but picking one could easily remove other options.

Any specific set mechanics would be removed (no combo system, no momentum...unsure on Swap Ammo, as that's a power more than set mechanic).

For instance, only one Melee Tier 9 and one Ranged Teir 9 power could be had on a character.

Only one ranged targeted AOE could be selected. Only one ranged cone ability could be selected.

All unarmed melee attacks would be setup to work with weapon in hand, so you can throw a storm kick without putting the pistols away, or a Jab without putting the sword away.

Basically a massive Power Listing Tree.

Secondary: Less mix than the primary, but still a branching tree of various defense style powers. Picking some powers may again stop you from choosing others. Or, just go for a bigger selection of powers ala the Kheldians, while giviing various styles of defense sets a possibility. Resists + Healing. Defense + Healing. Resists + Defense. All of just one. A mixture of all three. Many possibilities on how to play it out. VEAT style basically.

Now, you keep the Origin open to all! This allows for those who want a "natural" hero/villain, while also allowing players to use it for concepts that would have different origins.


This combo could still deal decent damage up there with Scrappers/Blasters, while having an array of abilities. And while they would have the option to use a variety of different weapons on one character (and suffer redraw for using them, outside of having a weapon drawn animation for the Hand to Hand moves).

I'd likely say either ignore APPs all together, or lets those be standard powers along the lines of Scrappers...

Immobilize
Hold
Elemental Blast
Elemental Debuff
Elemental AOE

So they could say the character developed some sort of ability. I'd have those APP abilities likely cause redraw tho

Now, what shouldn't happen is for someone to pick this AT and go "Oh! I can pick this new AT for a pure AR/Defense character and do just as much damage as a Blaster."

I would think Damage Mod of 1, without an inherent of Defiance would keep the Blasters ahead on damage. Other melees should still beable to out damage this AT except for MAYBE Stalkers (but then I still think they need a higher damage mod ) but Stalkers would have criticals.

As for the inherent to this AT...Increased ACC! They basically start out more accurate! That's it. They (the player) can either slot for the same ACC as they tended to before or they can slot for it less.

This is an inherent that may play a nice part in the beginning, but other ATs can generally catch up to them on. Basically no increased damage to help them surpass the specialized ATs with generally equal slotting.

Defenses. No reason they couldn't have Scrapper/Stalker/Brute levels in the defense numbers. Balance could easily come from the number of hit points.

No idea on the resist caps. EATs are all at 85% aren't they? But maybe this can break that and go at 75% cap.

...

So, here's an AT idea that opens up lots of ideas, allows for a more "super powered" progression if the player decides with the APPs/Patrons, outside of the beginning Defense set being super human or not.

Except they did that in 'that other game'. And it sucked massively. Freeform selection has far too many problems to be implemented this late in the game.

Yeah, I read your whole post and my mind just kept screaming "Crab Spider".

And i want to thank the individual who gave us the crabs. (I think it was Ms. liberty)

If there was a Scrapper / Blaster Archtype base w/ a good choice of primaries/secondaries? Fuggedaboutit. Nobody would run anything else. okay, some people would. But min/max ers would not choose anything else. You could softcap a ranged AoE character to all damage types? Heh. Let me guess, with decent resists large mez/KB resist and good health thrown in? the only way to make the game a challenge would be to run at +5/x12 allatime.

Please do not put words in my mouth. if I wanted a tank mage I could make one of several with IO's and incarnate powers etc in game. If I wanted a tank mage I would not have proposed several limitations to both primary and secondary in my OP.

Yay! Flea gets it!!

I also like Proliferation. In fact i cant wait to roll an Ice Melee scrapper...some day.
I also want this AT.
I also want more options for Jet boots
I would also like some robot wings/jet pack/binders/etc so I do not have to choose between feathers or dragon wings or nothing for a robot character.
I would like some new mastermind pet sets.

there are a lot of things i and many others would like. prioritizing them is somthing the devs and marketing will have to figure out.

Domination is not a gimmick. Neither are fury, criticals, or scourge. I never said they were. in fact fury is part of my proposal. I did say domination is a mechanic i am not particularily fond of. Positioning, or more precisely, kiting and hover blasting, or simply running away and shooting at foes chasing you are gimmicks, and are accepted forms of play for the current ranged AT's. I do not want to have to hover blast etc all the time to use ranged sets.
"Positioning is an inherent necessity for using ranged attacks, or any attack really. "
Not really. Sure you need to get in range but thats hardly positioning. And you dont need to position for a ranged attack, thats the whole point. they work just as well from max range or from 5 feet. Do scrappers need to move 20 feet every time they use focus?
Team sets are hardly just as useful solo. Parts of them are, some more then others. Many do not offer a whole lot to a solo player. Those sets are balanced around team play, so i do not expect them to offer a solo player that much utility. if you mean solo utility in the sense that you can still use them to slot IO sets, then they are no different then picking power pools for set mules.

Of course the foes could close to melee faster, thats why i proposed reducing range. Its also how one would keep balance on the AT, you know, because the character would have traditional defenses to survive in melee. Maintaining distance is still possible, but I explain the effects of that in my OP. it just would not be mandatory anymore to survive a fight against minions.
As for stepping on toes, i will refer you to the dichotomy of defender and corruptor. When cov beta came around, and even a bit after, scourge was adjusted to give corruptors a difeerent feel then defenders. Otherwise, what is the difference? Answer: scourge and AT modifiers. What is the difference in my proposed AT? Answer: Fury and AT modifiers.

This made me lol

Nah.

Caps would be in place and modifiers set to prevent tank magery. Besides, if someone spent billions on a IO build for this AT it wouldnt be any different then any other AT with money thrown at it. This was pointed out earlier by others.

Min/Max would actually play something else, as the something else would be able to achieve higher values of whatever they are after. blasters would do more dmg, the other ranged AT have team buffs and force multipliers, and the melee AT's would be a lot more durable. This AT would hardly become the farmer's choice. Min/Max is all about lvl 50 maximum powah!! builds. A IO purple blaster is going to better then this AT in terms of dmg, and at least be equal in survivability if not surpass this AT.

The point of this AT is not lvl 50 MAXIMUM POWAH!! but more lvl 1-50 on SO's and lucky drops. If someone took this AT and MAXIMUM POWAH'd it, they would likely run into the HP cap, the Res cap or both. Team buffs would easily put this AT at the dmg cap, well before other pure ranged or pure melee AT. And def soft cap is a moot point because you can do that on anything already.

If I did not feel there was room for this AT in between the ones we already have, I would not have suggested it or put this much effort into the discussion for it.

Blasters out-damage other archetypes?

Should tanks be switching targets constantly and be aware of where the spawn is in order to maintain aggro? Should scrappers be taking out the problem mobs first before their end can be drained or the mob bubbles the spawn? Should the brute not make sure that he is in the middle of the spawn to maximize aoe's? Do any of them not position themselves for cones? This idea that melee toons don't and shouldn't be positioning themselves is strange to me.

Rad is awesome to solo with. As is dark, traps, time, kinetics, cold and Storm. Take cold for example, arguably one of the best "teaming" sets. All you need to optimize for a team setting are the two shields. Give each an extra slot and you are good. Frost works is completely optional. The rest of the power set helps you as much solo as it does to team. How many set mules require 2 powers and a single slot each?

Name me 3 out of the 9 debuff sets that are not just as useful solo as teamed. Your free pick is thermal even though it is more of a buff set.

Firstly, ATs and powersets are created/balanced with SOs in mind, not what it can be made to do with IOs. Secondly, if VEATs were the answer, tell me how I make one with dual pistols or a bow and arrow. Thirdly, making a character survivable doesn't equate to an armor set because armor sets provide a different experience from not only armor set to armor set but from AT to AT...but you wouldn't know that would you? Because you only ever IO to softcap and play with high-end IOed bonuses piled on top. Newsflash, practically everyone plays the same because practically everyone can softcap. Just because one does that when they play doesn't everyone does and just goes to show you've lost the experience of playing the Armor sets themselves.

All this is is made up assumptions and conjecture. Not only that, but this argument, *on it's face*, is contradicted by yours and other's arguments made against the idea.

A Blast/Armor AT is overpowered? Is a Tankmage? Is redundant?

-IO builds were pointed out with high-end defense/regen bonuses.

To achieve high survival isn't some new trick to this game. If it's overpowered, then IOs are overpowered. If achieving high amounts of survival while shooting at range were beyond the balanced limits, then the argument falls flat because *everyone* can do this. This doesn't mean armor sets are replaced by this, or claimed redundant. Because, if it were, no one would make scrappers or brutes anymore. They'd all make corruptors and controllers or trap MMs.

If you want to continue to imply the proposed AT is overpowered, all you have to do is explain why people still play Brutes, Tankers, Stalkers and Scrappers *AT LARGE* vs other ATs. If IOs do not substitute armor sets for the other ATs it does not for the suggested one either.

-Tankmage is what this idea is?

First of all, the 'definition' of tankmage is a character who is very survivable and can shoot at people from range. That definition is useless and can be tossed in the trash (see above counter + the fact that MMs are exactly the same out of the box).

The abridged definition of Tankmage is a character that can do multiple aspects of gameplay (or all types) very well, basically replacing a 'mage' and a 'tank' at the same time. I can tell you right now, a damage capped Tanker does not replace a controller, blaster or defender/corruptor nor does a defense/resist capped Blaster. The *only* capabilities an Blast/Armor AT can achieve is high survival and killing foes without needing to be in close range...which isn't functionally different from what a Tanker or Brute can do: survive and kill things.

So, no, the AT isn't really a Tankmage because it has no high amounts of controls or debuffs or pets or team buffs (i.e. it can't do a whole bunch of other ATs' jobs). And no, the other definition of tankmage is pointless and invalidated by your own stance (if you decide to bring up IOs or VEATs).

-This idea is redundant because it can already be done with various ATs and power combos?


Okay, as long as you admit that, the only real counter to the idea can stand without being knocked over by a silent fart.

So I can make a Traps character or a Time Manipulation character or a VEAT or HEAT to simulate various armor type characters that also shoot at range? Great. If that can be considered balanced, then the statements of the idea being a Tankmage or overpowered is completely tossed out the window.

The only problem with the suggested work-arounds is concept. I can 'simulate' regen or super reflexes with Time Manipulation or Traps, but what about Invulnerability? Or Stone Armor? Or hell, Ninjutsu? Shield Defense? So on and so forth. Not only that, but the actual character concepts too. Just because I can make a defender with only melee attacks (from pools and epics), doesn't mean it'll be a very good stand-in and should be skipped. Many players have concepts for characters that use armor and shoot and your stand-ins are only half-*****.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Some people want a viable self-contained Super Reflexes character who uses two pistols or a power armor character that shoot beams out of their hands. Some try with the work-arounds, like making a melee with the power mastery pool or high-end blaster builds or whatever, but if the idea keeps cropping up, apparently those work-arounds indeed are half-***** and do not successfully fulfill the theme correctly.

Either you're too full of yourself to realize this or you have no imagination. That said, although I support the idea for such an AT because it can provide new and unique tactics/playstyles, it wouldn't be something I'd personally play. I'm still seeking my melee/(de)buff character concept. There are so many ways you can make such a combination work well and the ranged/armor AT really is no different.

This. I was going to type out another response of my own, but this.

Exactly the point, really.

I still find my Draconic Necromancer build pretty unique and fun. Not optimized, but still fun. He's a Fire Melee/SD/Levi Brute. His Dragoon magic comes primarily from his ability to change what stuff he breaths out, from fire to ice to toxic blasts, while his necromancy comes from forming a dragon's bane sword out of the soul of vanquished dragons as well as summon their bones to wield as armor.

I wouldn't have been able to really fill out that build without the Leviathan pool and the addition of Arctic Breath. Without Arctic Breath, the concept is just too bland...but that one addition went a long way.

Now think about adding some other combos into the mix and way more concepts too bland or finicky to work properly suddenly are more enjoyable. Optimal or not.

Because you're not thinking outside the box?

Honestly, I'd suggest thinking of the general concept of the AT (a sturdy ranged fighter) and start building the AT from there, starting with perhaps the limits of what you think the AT should be able to do...

First, I look at the AT of Tankers. I like Tankers. No one seems to think they're overpowered. They're the most upfront survivable AT there is and the damage they are capable of isn't bad at all. They may not outstrip other ATs but considering half the time they are in no danger, it more than balances out. Conversely, look at Masterminds. Probably more survivable than Tankers but can do more damage + buff the team some with the downfall of requiring the management of a bunch of pets.

So, the way I see it, you've got two flavors of 'Tanking'. The straight-forwardness of Tankers or the more complicated yet more diverse Mastermind.

Why not add a new flavor of 'Tanking' that differs from the 2 we have? I mean, we practically have 3 flavors of 'melee' and 3 flavors of 'blasting', this suggested AT can have capabilities lined up with what a Tanker can do but still not overtake what a MM can do with its variety...think, if Tankers can do their thing but with the option of being at range, is it somehow unfair to be able to do that when you've got Scrappers and Brutes able to survive similar levels of punishment but do so much more damage?

Same justification for this hypothetical AT. A ranged Tanker, so to speak. With the same general offensive capabilities of a Tanker with the added utility of range.

So then why play another melee over this AT? Specifically Tankers? Well, Brutes and Scrappers can still output more damage than a Tanker period. That is why you'd play a Brute/Scrapper in that instance, because they do more overall damage. Why play a Tanker over this new tanker type? Easy, because the main advantages of a Tanker (taunting) would come from being close while this new AT could have advantages by being far. It adds a layer of complexity over a Tanker that makes room for the new utility but puts its tactics at odds with itself in some scenarios. Not only that, but consider that buff and damage auras in armor sets only provide their effects with foes nearby...

Inherent power can be something like 'Brace for Fire' or some such where one needs to be planted in place for a time (near the ground) for 'some benefit'....Hmm...

Archtype: [Insert Name]
Primary: Armor
Secondary: Blasts
Epics: Some control and melee attacks
Inherent: Buster Shot, a passive that boosts range and attack strength while 'Brace for Fire' is unsuppressed. Adds a massive taunt to sniper attacks and makes them uninterruptible.

Primary Armor would be straight forward and on level with Brute but with HP of Scrapper.

Epics would basically be a version of the melee pools but with the ranged powers replaced by melee powers.

The secondary...would be different. On par with a Tanker's melee attacks. The control power (the stun/hold/etc) of each set would be replaced by Confront, a ST auto-hit taunt that has longer range. The Snipe would be upgraded to do heftier damage, taunt in a wide range when used from ranged and be uninterruptible when one has 'braced themselves' for the shot.

Sets without snipes will have a power altered into one (Ice Blast and Sonic would probably lose control powers for it).

Aim is replaced by 'Brace for Fire', a unique taunt aura toggle that works similar to Fury in that, when you turn it on and *stay still* for a time (the bar will fill up when you stop moving near the ground), the toggle will grant you extra range on your attacks and add 'Buster Shot' damage (a static amount of extra damage, like a proc) to all your ranged attacks. However, once a foe get within melee range (15ish feet) your aura will catch them and the majority of your range is suppressed except your snipe, which will be unable to be interrupted if you have braced yourself.

So a hypothetical blast set would be....

Radiation Blast:
1. Neutrino Bolt (ranged minor energy dmg, -def, *special* +range, Buster Shot proc)the range of pretty much all the attacks, with a foe in melee range is 30-45ft. with no foes nearby, it is regular distance
2. X-ray Beam Eyes (ranged moderate energy dmg, -def, *special +range, Buster Shot proc)
3. Irradiate (PBAoE moderate energy dmg, -def, *special* Buster Shot proc)
4. Electron Haze (Cone energy dmg, -def, knockback, *special* +range, Buster Shot proc)
5. Confront (ST long ranged taunt)
6. Brace for Fire [replaces Aim](self toggle, +ToHit, improves Buster Shot proc, PBAoE taunt)
before one gets this power, the AT will have very short range all the time and the Buster Shot proc will fire randomly and at a lower frequency. With this power, a 'fury bar' fills up when you stop moving until full, then a 'Braced to Fire' status is gained which boosts range when no foes are nearby, Buster Shot improves in frequency and snipes become uninterruptible. If you move from the first location you braced yourself at, the bar goes down relative to the distance. Nudge yourself left, right or forward a dozen feet and the bar only goes down a little and will quickly refill the instant you stop moving. Bust out into a full Super Speed sprint or TP 200+ ft to another spot and the bar bottoms out.

you could actually skip this power if you were fine with the shorter range, didn't feel like dealing with the 'have to stand still a moment' mechanic or don't like using snipes.
7. Proton Volley (Sniper, Extreme energy damage, -def, AoE taunt, *special* +range, Buster Shot proc)
8. Neutron Bomb (Ranged TAoE, moderate energy dmg, -def, *special* +range, Buster Shot proc)
9. ???

They already have freeform in CoH in the case of the VEATS, so obviously you can make freeform in CoH not suck (and that's a matter of opinion on the other game, inwhich it's freeform builds were not the problems it just had many other problems).

And could someone make a bad build with what I suggesed? Hell yes they could! And obviously choosing to make an attack string that has you redrawing with every weapon attack is going to be an aweful build (number wise. I'm sure there's people who would find it fun).

And my suggested freeform kept it limited and can be kept in line with all the other ATs.

The fact that you can already make these builds in game by correct building and slotting proves that you do not have imagination. Not me.

Just because a Dual Pistols Blaster can't actually take Super Reflexes...does not mean you can't build for defense and play it off as a Dual Pistols, super reflexes character.

Done it. Still plays way different. Getting massive defense helps ALOT. But still plays differently.

The fact is that the limitations that you proposed in your original post are all obviated by what you want to give this new class. By proposing to give it the Fury mechanic you completely bypass the fact that you reduce its damage cap. If you built it so that you had a straight defender level damage, fine. However, by proposing the fury mechanic, you want your new class to go beyond that. As all people who have played the game know and understand, the fury mechanic is extremely powerful. Drop that from your proposal and I would agree that you are not trying to create a tankmage.