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This would probably be the closest you'd be able to get to a ranged/defense AT. Not sure if your "any melee damage within 7' or less adds .5 mez" is feasible within the game, but certainly any 7' or shorter Melee attacks could have your Blapper inherent Mez protection on any successful attacks. I'd probably make your Range modifier .5 of blaster ranges to start. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
Alright...this is my somewhat serious attempt at what a Ranged/Defense AT could look like.
Blapper HP Base: 1017.4 HP Max: 1606.4 Damage Scale: .700 Range Scale?: assuming blasters are 1.00...blappers would be .75 (meaning that if a blasters attack has a 100' range, the blappers attack would have a 75' range) "defense" scale: .5 (Tankers are 1.00 and Scrappers are .75) (Regen and WP would have to be looked at more closely) No knockback protection. No Mez Protection Toggles. (armor set toggles or clicks that currently have mez protection now grant a bonus to the Blappers Inherent ability) Toggles will be dropped if mezzed. (not just surpressed...except for current mez protection toggles-see inherent ability) Inherent Power: Blapping All attacks executed on an enemy within the melee damage range of 7' or less adds .5 mez protection (hold, stun, sleep) that lasts for 5s. Stackable. 3 points of protection max. Each additional attack restarts the 5s timer. Current armor toggles that offer mez protection offer the Blapper a bonus to Blapping. All attacks executed with in the melee damage range of 7' or less now adds 1 mez protection that lasts for 5s. (so instead of taking 6 attacks to get to the 3 point max...it only takes 3. |
Any pool powers in this "New AT" would have to follow the same type of defensive scaling and should not be stronger then Brute/Scrapper/Stalker levels.
Not 100% sure it would be balanced compared to other sets, but THIS would be a better place to start.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I'd say my suggestion would be a better place to start. The blapper one is basically pre-gimped anyway and doesn't quite fill the criteria of not being a redundant play experience.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Not 100% sure it would be balanced compared to other sets, but THIS would be a better place to start.
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Not only is mine perfectly feasible to implement (the whole executing attacks on foes within a certain range giving you a buff may not be), but it also fulfills a team roll that really is only delegated by 3 other ATs; Tankers, Brutes and Masterminds. That Blapper is basically a 5th (6th if you want to count Doms, 7th if you want to count EATs) DPS role and can do nothing else.
The Artillery (that's what I'd name my AT, I guess), would provide the role of aggro control by being the first to engage from range while teammates charge or move away from the Artillery guy so as not to be caught up in AoE. The name of their game (rather than herd as many foes as close together to keep aggro like on Tanker, or keep pets close and alive like on MMs) is to pick a safe spot (somewhere where they can get off as many shots before the foe can reach them) near the ground and let lose, taking out the ones that lead their bunch first so as to keep your range. In the case you or teammates cannot keep foes at bay, you'd have to either reposition (and unbrace yourself which would lose you some damage/range) or just engage close-range (and not move).
I think it'd be a new and interesting dynamic, something that I often use now on my Storm corruptor; that is, finding a spot that hinders the foes advances like obstacles that force them to line up, or screw with their AI as they have to find a way around things all the while, my powers are debuffing them and knocking them back to square one. Not only that, but it puts an interesting emphasis on snipes so that they have a purpose.
Yeah, my ideas bettah'
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metaphore tankmage hyperbole blather. Creative.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Trouble is, you're not asking for a car in a new color. We can do that now with color customization.
What you're asking is for the auto dealer to talk to the car manufacturer into making a Hummer into a Formula One Race car, while still keeping it as sturdy as a Hummer of course. This way you can go as fast as the other Formula One cars, but you can also drive over them if they get in your way. Heck, why bother with taking the turns when you can drive right over the barriers... Of course you want it in Twilight Blue Mica. |
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
Quote:
I do not want the pick up truck.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
FWIW, wouldn't a Force Field Defender be close to what you're wanting? You'd have your defense while being able to use different ranged attacks? And you could make it in Twilight Blue!
 |
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
Quote:
I lol'd. |
Originally Posted by Eldagore
ZOMG Tank Mage
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Sounds like the most boring AT imaginable.
You can make pretty much make any AT in game into a survivable melee character with a little work in mids. For example, it's possible to make pretty much anything in-game softcaped to S/L/M, while still going with a resistance APP. Even something with 0 as a base resistance and defense like a blaster. All ya gotta do is get a bit more creative in Mids.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
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This is exactly right IMO.
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Originally Posted by teflonshugenja
The way I read it was more like this:
Salesman: Based on what you say you'd like from a car, I recommend this sedan. Eldagore: Well, that's not bad. But it's red. Salesman: Yes, it comes in red. Eldagore: Well, I don't like red. Does it come in Twilight Blue Mica? Salesman: I'm afraid not. It does come in Midnight Blue, though, which is very close, and our in-house body shop can customize the trim in a variety of ways for you. Would that be okay? Eldagore: No, that's not Twilight Blue Mica. Got anything else? Salesman: As a matter of fact we do. These eight other fine automobiles are all capable of performing according to your specifications. Eldagore: But they're not what I want. That one is a manual transmission and none of them come in Twilight Blue Mica. Salesman: You are correct. I'm afraid that we don't have any vehicles that fit all of your criteria, but we have several that come close. Eldagore: Well...why don't you call the factory and have them make a custom car just for me, then? In Twilight Blue Mica. I even brought these blueprints that I sketched out on the back of a napkin during lunch. Salesman: ... Eldagore: What? That's a perfectly reasonable suggestion! Salesman: No. No, it's really not. Have a nice day, sir. Eldagore: What the heck?! |
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Naw. Who wants to paint the car that will do the trick on their own. Much easier to ask the manufacturer to pull parts from 3 different models in order to create a new model that doesn't actually bring any interesting features to the market.
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Originally Posted by _Force_
All ya gotta do is get a bit more creative in Mids.
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So...|
Originally Posted by Eldagore
I do NOT want ranged attacks ON TOP OF brute and scrapper armor levels. The range would be A PART OF, or if you want it more simply IN PLACE OF SOME OF the armor values.
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Approximately what values did you have in mind? As a percentage of Scrapper def/res and blaster damage:
Base damage value.
Damage cap without Fury.
Damage cap with Fury.
Ranges.
HP cap.
Resist and damage base values.
Resist and damage caps.
All you have to do is give some reasonable, balanced values, and the whole tankmage argument is utterly demolished.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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my memory is failing me on a few of these (working 10 hour days 7 days a week lately will do that) but....|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
So...
Approximately what values did you have in mind? As a percentage of Scrapper def/res and blaster damage: Base damage value. Damage cap without Fury. Damage cap with Fury. Ranges. HP cap. Resist and damage base values. Resist and damage caps. All you have to do is give some reasonable, balanced values, and the whole tankmage argument is utterly demolished. |
Dmg, I dunno, .65 comes to mind. What are defenders? .7? I guess I envision it as just a smidge lower then that at base.
dmg cap.... is there a difference of with and without fury? Does brute fury actually go on top of the dmg cap? I know scrapper criticals dont count... thats a harder one to nail down without testing, but 400% was my gut feeling, but that would include fury as part of it. Something like, 90 or so % from enhancments, 200% from max fury, and that would leave 100% to gain from teams. This is based off my understanding that blasters are what, 800% cap? Or is that brutes..... lol like I said my memory fails me but that should be a rough guess. This AT wouldnt gain as much from team buffs as other AT's, thats part of what keeps it from outshining the others. Other more specialized AT can gain a lot more from team buffs.
Ranges is pretty easy, they would be half. 20' bitter ice blast, 40' on flares, 30' cones. This brings foes closer, so they will close in faster. low base values means enhancing range wouldnt be as effective as less durable AT's.
HP cap honestly I am not sure. it would really require some testing with the regen set, or willpower even to know. Certainly no where near melee AT's.
Resists.... cap would be like 40 or 50%. Dont remember the AT scalers off hand for defense. brutes/scrappers .8? tanks 1.0? I dont recall. if scrappers are .8 I would say this would get a .6 or .65. I see it as an /invuln could take fighting pool and approach the 40-50% cap for S/L similar to how brutes scrappers and tanks can approach their respective caps.
This is all very rough, and would need testing to show one way or another. I may be(probly am) wrong on the AT scaler numbers, but this should give a rough guess as a start point for base values and such.
Anybody feel free to jump in and correct my numbers! Like I said my memory is pretty foggy on those, havent had to crunch them for a long while.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
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93496 A Pawn in Time
Damage Scalars:
Defenders: .550 Melee, .650 Ranged
Blasters: 1.00 Melee, 1.125 Ranged
Corruptors: .750 Melee, .750 Ranged
Damage Limits: (including base 100% dmg)
Brutes: 775%
Blasters, Corruptors, Scrappers and Stalkers: 210% until level 21, then it jumps to 500%
(IF I recall correctly Scrapper criticals don't count against the dmg cap for them. )
All others: 200% till level 21, then it jumps to 400%
Hit Points:
Blasters, Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors, Dominators and Stalkers: all have max hp at 1606. (although it looks like stalkers will be getting there HP limit raised in an up coming release.)
Scrappers and Epics: cap at 2409.5
Brutes: 3212.7
Tanks: 3534
Defenses: Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers all have 75% the strength of tanks in their defense/resists (unless I'm missing something). The pool powers get a bit wonky for other ATs and don't quite match that.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Thanks!|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Damage Scalars:
Defenders: .550 Melee, .650 Ranged Blasters: 1.00 Melee, 1.125 Ranged Corruptors: .750 Melee, .750 Ranged Damage Limits: (including base 100% dmg) Brutes: 775% Blasters, Corruptors, Scrappers and Stalkers: 210% until level 21, then it jumps to 500% (IF I recall correctly Scrapper criticals don't count against the dmg cap for them. ) All others: 200% till level 21, then it jumps to 400% Hit Points: Blasters, Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors, Dominators and Stalkers: all have max hp at 1606. (although it looks like stalkers will be getting there HP limit raised in an up coming release.) Scrappers and Epics: cap at 2409.5 Brutes: 3212.7 Tanks: 3534 Defenses: Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers all have 75% the strength of tanks in their defense/resists (unless I'm missing something). The pool powers get a bit wonky for other ATs and don't quite match that. |
It would look like I overshot a few things then. I would say if defender range base is .65, I would start this At at like .6 Scrapper crits dont count. I might be wrong, but corruptor scourge doesnt either.
Dmg cap 400% isnt too far off then if we include the base 100%. I think if I include base 100%, my gut feeling on fury would be off- I would then cut that in half to be 100%. So 100% base, 90% or so from enhancments, 100% from fury and then 100% or so left over for team buffs. But, I might be misunderstanding that concept yet. LOL, last time I really sat down and compared numbers I used brawl index. lol, remember those? Where does the time go....
I still dont know on HP. I guess as a start I would just lump in with the bunch at 1606. Testing with regen etc would have to be done to see if that needs to go up or down. I kind of think it might need to go up to 2000 or so to make reduced value regen still provide any kind of meaningful defenses. If this AT would be .55 or .6 of tank values for armor sets, a .55 regen set combined with 1606 HP cap might be pretty well neutered. I think this catagory would require the most tweaking to get right.
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3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
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93496 A Pawn in Time
So I post a few off the cuff numbers and no one has anything to say now? I thought for sure I would get a few "see.... tankmage" responses or something.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
I don't think the numbers you are asking for are tankmage material.
I also don't think it would be fun. You would be squishier than a stalker and do defender level damage.
I'm not suggesting you go make a Kheldian or Arachnos, I understand why those don't fit the bill. But you should recognize, the devs DID put ATs that do what you want into the game, but in order to keep them balanced they put quite a lot of limitations on those ATs.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I've tried working on an AT that would fill this role myself...I called it Powered Armor. However I mistakenly tried to make it an Epic AT (which didn't fit) because I felt that if access weren't limited in some way everyone would play it and nothing else. Wrong again. I did not consider the fact that many players prefer smashing things up-close and personal as opposed to standing back and blasting stuff. Theme is also important (as the OP noted) and I have a tough time granting my Iron Man homage character mental powers.
With the VEATs all things are possible (range, melee, defenses) but their theme is extremely limiting. If we designed a more flexible AT thematically what would we do to limit it so it wouldn't become the FOTM for the rest of the game?
All things are possible but balance-wise how can they be done?
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
OK, I just wanna say this now. "forced backstory" is no excuse not to take the tank mage on offer and complain about wanting a new. I'm currently working on a guide that turns SoAs into tank mages and on my SoA, I tank all the content, even iTrials, easily.
Personally, I think the only AT that has a chance at being added to the game at some point in the not-to-distant future is a Melee/Support AT, I think Zwill was spitballing about that on one of the coffee talks weeks ago.
My D3 is a tankmage 
Would it not be easier to allow the Tanker limited access to ranged attacks within certain secondary powers? That would not require designing a new AT. You mentioned every AT except a Tank. I am curious as to why. It seems to me that if a Tanker's power like Energy, Fire, Ice, or Dark Melee's could have an alternate selection of ranged powers that target an area, chosen by the player, to use in place of melee. Maybe 1 or 2 of the individual attacks and 1 of the AOEs. That would give a good mix of both melee and range. Furthermore, you do not have to mitigate damage and these powers could use ToA IOs. No radical changes required. Thus creates a real 'Tank Mage.'
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
What you're asking is for the auto dealer to talk to the car manufacturer into making a Hummer into a Formula One Race car, while still keeping it as sturdy as a Hummer of course. This way you can go as fast as the other Formula One cars, but you can also drive over them if they get in your way. Heck, why bother with taking the turns when you can drive right over the barriers...
Of course you want it in Twilight Blue Mica.
Salesman: Based on what you say you'd like from a car, I recommend this sedan.
Eldagore: Well, that's not bad. But it's red.
Salesman: Yes, it comes in red.
Eldagore: Well, I don't like red. Does it come in Twilight Blue Mica?
Salesman: I'm afraid not. It does come in Midnight Blue, though, which is very close, and our in-house body shop can customize the trim in a variety of ways for you. Would that be okay?
Eldagore: No, that's not Twilight Blue Mica. Got anything else?
Salesman: As a matter of fact we do. These eight other fine automobiles are all capable of performing according to your specifications.
Eldagore: But they're not what I want. That one is a manual transmission and none of them come in Twilight Blue Mica.
Salesman: You are correct. I'm afraid that we don't have any vehicles that fit all of your criteria, but we have several that come close.
Eldagore: Well...why don't you call the factory and have them make a custom car just for me, then? In Twilight Blue Mica. I even brought these blueprints that I sketched out on the back of a napkin during lunch.
Salesman: ...
Eldagore: What? That's a perfectly reasonable suggestion!
Salesman: No. No, it's really not. Have a nice day, sir.
Eldagore: What the heck?!