Do people actually read threads, or just skim through the first paragraph and then make the same reply that's already been addressed?
Nobody is allowed to bring up Epic AT's in this thread anymore, starting now, as decided by me.
*Crosses arms*
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When something being asked for has already been brought up...and the thread still goes on...it clearly needs to be nailed into the persons head more than once.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Do people actually read threads, or just skim through the first paragraph and then make the same reply that's already been addressed?
Nobody is allowed to bring up Epic AT's in this thread anymore, starting now, as decided by me. *Crosses arms* |
That being said...I did just read the OP and replied with the same reply that's already been addressed.
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If it wasn't for the lack of mez protection in an Epic pool (you know, like TROLLERS get), I'd say DP/TIME is exactly a Regen/Super Reflexes hybrid. But it lacks the mez protection :/
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Sorry, I think as this play style is already in the game, and is easily achievable, i would be more interested in new AT's that give a more unique game experience than what is already available.
Your DP/regen? Traps would again be more suitable as with a couple triage beacons out, that is basically what you are. Stone/ice/ice tanker fits your other example. Fire/shield/fire scrapper your next, arrow/fire/fire blaster your last. Add in incarnate powers and the lines blur even more. OP: it's an idea that has been floated around a few times. Until it is realized you at least have a few options that can give you the play experience you are looking for. If it is obtuse for pointing them out, so be it. I hope you find what you are looking for. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
OP - I couldn't really get a firm feel of exactly what you're proposing, because there's nothing quantitive there. I was wondering if you could put some slightly firmer figures on what you mean when you say things like 'much lower'. Maybe as an approximate percentage of blaster values for the ranged damage, and scrapper values for the res/def?
- base damage value.
- damage cap without Fury.
- damage cap with Fury.
- ranges.
- HP cap.
- resist and damage base values.
- resist and damage caps.
If people could see that you didn't have outrageous values in mind, then it might neutralise some of the tankmage objections.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
I don't see why so many are dead set against the idea. Why can't we have melee/buff and range/armor as long as the modifiers and HP are properly scaled? As many others have said, "tankmage" is already achievable in numerous ways.
But by having a range/armor AT we could really exponentially increase the variety of characters we could play.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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You just answered your own question.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
I don't see why so many are dead set against the idea. Why can't we have melee/buff and range/armor as long as the modifiers and HP are properly scaled? As many others have said, "tankmage" is already achievable in numerous ways.
But by having a range/armor AT we could really exponentially increase the variety of characters we could play. |
It can already be done.
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In my opinion...the people who want this...actually want scrapper survivability with blaster damage.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
OP - I couldn't really get a firm feel of exactly what you're proposing, because there's nothing quantitive there. I was wondering if you could put some slightly firmer figures on what you mean when you say things like 'much lower'. Maybe as an approximate percentage of blaster values for the ranged damage, and scrapper values for the res/def?
- base damage value. - damage cap without Fury. - damage cap with Fury. - ranges. - HP cap. - resist and damage base values. - resist and damage caps. If people could see that you didn't have outrageous values in mind, then it might neutralise some of the tankmage objections. |
I say that because of the fact that you can already make a survivable ranged damage character that doesn't have as a much damage as a blaster and doesn't have as much survivability as a scrapper...yet this clearly is not good enough for them.
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Before we get a new AT, can we finish Powerset Proliferation?|
Originally Posted by Eldagore
Here is a list of ranged blast sets:
Fire blast ice blast dark blast psi blast rad blast archery assault rifle beam rifle dual pistols electric blast sonic blast energy blast This is why i suggested this in the first place. you have offered me the same crappy conventional workarounds to my dilema that have been around for years. There are 12 blast powersets(outside of epic AT's) and the only way to play them is to either play a high risk blaster, or a team AT. I am looking for a ranged attack scrapper or brute, to put it simply. |
There are still 440 IMPOSSIBLE Primary/Secondary Combinations, because sets have not been ported around that could be used by other AT's.
I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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You don't get it. The desire isn't to have an unkillable tankmage. The desire is to have more variety.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
You just answered your own question.
It can already be done. |
Hell, with incarnate powers EVERYTHING can be a tankmage now. So what's the harm is having a fire blast/fire armor that is LESS damaging than a corrupter and LESS sturdy than a fire armor scrapper? The fact that I can make something just as strong and just as sturdy with other powersets doesn't answer the question.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Alright, here's a bit more civil of a response from my thoughts.
First of all, the OP says that there are too many "gimmicks" in the ranged damage ATs. Then goes on to list things he perceives as a gimmick. Positioning, Domination, and support sets. Positioning is an inherent necessity for using ranged attacks, or any attack really. Needing to position your attacks hardly counts as a gimmick. Domination is not a gimmick. It is an inherent power that allows the character to perform better. In your view, are critical hits a gimmick? Scourge? Fury? Support sets you seem to dislike only because they are based around teaming. With the exception of Empathy, they are all just as useful solo. And a great many concepts can be achieved visually and mechanically with that are a match for what you are looking for. That's without even including VEATs and (arguably to a lesser extent) Khelds.
Now that that is out of the way, a Ranged/Armor AT would not offer the playstyle you are looking for. With the exception of a very few enemy groups, the enemies of this game focus mostly on melee damage. Solo, you would attack once and then be standing in melee anyway without the ability to slow, knockback, control, or otherwise maintain distance from your enemies. Thus, you would have to position yourself which is, in your view, an unacceptable gimmick. Not only that, but for this new AT to avoid stepping on the toes of existing ATs it would have to deal something like Defender level damage. Of course, there would then be no reason to bring this AT on a team over the existing ones.
A Melee/Support AT is somewhat more viable, but then you have to worry still about where that AT stands in comparison to the existing ranged support ATs.
Honestly, I believe the game has reached a point (and reached it long ago) where a new standard AT is not needed and is generally not a good idea. A better plan would be to implement new powersets, which the devs have obviously opted to do. With any luck, we will see such things as Natural-themed powersets for Dominators, Controllers, and Blasters. All of those ATs are somewhat lacking in the Natural concept. To put it more simply, there are a wider array of concepts that can't be created at all because powersets do not yet exist for that concept than concepts that can't be created because an AT doesn't yet exist for it. It's easy enough to follow the work arounds for concepts that have been offered in this thread that a new AT would fill. It's much harder to make a Natural Dominator.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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It was. Not that it matters, you can still soft-cap a blaster to ranged without using BotZ at all. It's not even all that hard.
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Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
This, this right here. Althought that *may* have been done during before the BotZ nerf.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I know, he wants to button mash his way through the game, at range. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Yep, that's right Claws. However, Silverado used tactics and carefully thought through what exactly he wanted to do, and how to go about it. The Op is not interested in that sort of playstyle for this AT.
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Everything he says he wants to do is already possible in the game if you use your brain.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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As I stated in an earlier post, I put forward a similar proposal a while back - my suggestion was actually for an Assault/Defense AT.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
In my opinion...the people who want this...actually want scrapper survivability with blaster damage.
I say that because of the fact that you can already make a survivable ranged damage character that doesn't have as a much damage as a blaster and doesn't have as much survivability as a scrapper...yet this clearly is not good enough for them. |
Personally I'm not looking for massive damage at range just a new experience.
Downside of the Blaster scenario - end game build, I'm looking at standard play/levelling.
Defender (FF/Fire for example) - this would achieve the goals but ties you into buffs.
Veats - can achieve the goals but ties you into specific damage types, back story, and design.
Why can't we have an AT that has a similar capability to Veats but with more options for customisations?
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Because then no one would buy VEATs in the store?
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
Why can't we have an AT that has a similar capability to Veats but with more options for customisations?
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At first glance I want to say "sure I don't see anything wrong with a VEAT like character with a wider variety of options" but then I think about the possible ramifications... and I also believe you don't actually want a VEAT with more options because you seem to be anti-team support/buffs. The VEATS provide a great deal of support and buffs to their teams.|
Originally Posted by Psiphon
As I stated in an earlier post, I put forward a similar proposal a while back - my suggestion was actually for an Assault/Defense AT.
Personally I'm not looking for massive damage at range just a new experience. Downside of the Blaster scenario - end game build, I'm looking at standard play/levelling. Defender (FF/Fire for example) - this would achieve the goals but ties you into buffs. Veats - can achieve the goals but ties you into specific damage types, back story, and design. Why can't we have an AT that has a similar capability to Veats but with more options for customisations? |
Here are possible reasons why you MIGHT not be able to get what you want:
1) VEATS might have specific damage types for balance reasons. The devs may have issue with a VEAT like character having access to other blast type sets and the abilities that encompass them. The VEAT powersets are set up with specific abilities and aren't just ported over sets from other AT's. The Fortunata for example has a mix of mind control and psi blast abilities. Part of the uniqueness of the VEATS is their versatile toolkit.
2) Scrapper Blaster: The character it really SOUNDS like you want IS something with a blaster's primary and a scrapper's secondary. It seems to me you're looking for broad spectrum resistances and/or defense with mez protection alongside a Blaster primary. That's not something I think the devs will find as balanced gameplay. You're never going to see a Fire Blast/Willpower archetype... I'd get that idea out of your head ASAP.
3) Balance: A character like what you are looking for doesn't exist for good reason. Said character would be too strong offensively and defensively compared to other AT's. Consider that existing ranged damage AT's can already become astronomically sturdy, imagine how insane this blast/defense AT would be given all those options.
4) Role: What role would this "tankmage" AT fill? A ranged damage dealer? We have several already why would we need another?
5) Redundancy: What you want can already be achieved. No it can't be achieved from lvl 1-10 on but it can be achieved... just not on your timetable. Frankly you probably already know better. Because if you've ever played a melee AT you know they don't start off much sturdier than anyone else. They need to level to pick up key powers that stack with each other to give them survivability. Ranged AT's are no different. You can stack various powers for mitigation... you just dont have as many or as strong options as the melee AT's. For example an invuln tanker doesnt have much more resistance to s/l than a kheldian early on. It's only after they stack other powers does that sturdiness grow. The fact that ranged AT's can improve their sturdiness through pool powers and APP/PPP's provides more than enough blurring of the lines between AT's.
Just for kicks I opened Mid's and made a thermal/fire/power defender. With no incarnate powers at all and just the right power picks and slotting it ends up with 27% melee defense, 40% ranged defense, 36% aoe defense, 70% resistance to s/l, Force of nature throws up 70ish% resistance to everything else but psi when needed and it has 25% bonus damage on top of vigilance. I skipped all but 3 powers in thermal but since this would be a solo character it doesn't matter. I chose power for Power Buildup so I could have a similar toolkit to a blaster. I could have gotten a broader spread of resistance types with another APP/PPP like mu mastery or soul mastery. Even at lvl 25 with just SO's this character has about 21% defense to everything and 23% resistance to s/l. That's an impressive amount mitigation for a ranged character. I can probably do that or better with just about any powerset combo on a defender and to a lesser extent a corruptor. About the only thing such a character lacks is mez protection and thats what break frees are for not to mention all that defense will help avoid mez affects as well.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I just want a character with Dominator assault powers (4 melee, 4 range, and 1 self buff) as a primary with stalker defensive secondary numbers, defender damage numbers and with a 1606hp cap. I will be happy with that.
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You say you will, but you'll realize how lousy that damage is later. :/
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Originally Posted by Mod_Noc
I just want a character with Dominator assault powers (4 melee, 4 range, and 1 self buff) as a primary with stalker defensive secondary numbers, defender damage numbers and with a 1606hp cap. I will be happy with that.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Couldn't you just make a stalker and take an APP/PPP for ranged attacks?|
Originally Posted by Mod_Noc
I just want a character with Dominator assault powers (4 melee, 4 range, and 1 self buff) as a primary with stalker defensive secondary numbers, defender damage numbers and with a 1606hp cap. I will be happy with that.
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I mean I know it's unorthodox to use an AT like a scrapper or stalker as a ranged attacker but it is mechanically possible. Especially with a high recharge build.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Maybe a little more damage than defender :P
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Originally Posted by BrandX
You say you will, but you'll realize how lousy that damage is later. :/
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The epic attacks are pretty terrible for Stalker. Not sure about scrapper. I took dark blast on stalker but it's mostly for killing off runners or pulling. It is not a reliable source of damage at all. Not to mention 3 out of 4 epic sets cannot critical (body, weapon and darkness. Soul can critical).
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
Couldn't you just make a stalker and take an APP/PPP for ranged attacks?
I mean I know it's unorthodox to use an AT like a scrapper or stalker as a ranged attacker but it is mechanically possible. Especially with a high recharge build. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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That is true and I have done it a few of times, but the APP/PPP doesn't help when between the lvl 1-37.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
Couldn't you just make a stalker and take an APP/PPP for ranged attacks?
I mean I know it's unorthodox to use an AT like a scrapper or stalker as a ranged attacker but it is mechanically possible. Especially with a high recharge build. |
I think we already have Range/Defense ATs in SoA and even Kheldians.
Do you think a Melee/support would work? I am thinking the support values will be at MM level but you have melee attacks. So I assume you support first (buff or debuff) and then go in for melee attacks.
I still don't think we'll ever get another core AT. We have enough!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well for a scrapper they are petty nice actually.. I'm playing in mids now with a fire/fire/fire scrapper built to be a ranged attacker and it actually looks pretty impressive... I may need to consider building this in game >.>|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The epic attacks are pretty terrible for Stalker. Not sure about scrapper. I took dark blast on stalker but it's mostly for killing off runners or pulling. It is not a reliable source of damage at all. Not to mention 3 out of 4 epic sets cannot critical (body, weapon and darkness. Soul can critical).
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Sure the ranged damage wont be as high as its melee but its still pretty good and its kinda exactly what we are talking about here... "less than a blaster ranged dmg with scrapper lvl defenses"
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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The big problem is, people want to beable to use those ranged attacks while not feeling like they're losing damage, and they'd generally like to beable to throw more than just 2 blasts in.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
Well for a scrapper they are petty nice actually.. I'm playing in mids now with a fire/fire/fire scrapper built to be a ranged attacker and it actually looks pretty impressive... I may need to consider building this in game >.>
Sure the ranged damage wont be as high as its melee but its still pretty good and its kinda exactly what we are talking about here... "less than a blaster ranged dmg with scrapper lvl defenses" |
For the best DPS, for Scrappers anyways, one generally wants to just not use the ranged blasts at all.
It's no different than Super Strength and Hurl. I'd never skip it, but in a serious character vs AV fight, I wouldn't use it either, and that makes some of us sad.
Maybe what they (the devs) need to do is make other epic ATs that fill those voids in the regular character creation (ATs).
The gunfu-martial artist/defense.
The Fire user who has a range of abilities to choose from, instead of limited between the Fire/Fire pairing of a certain AT.
You know, so they have a bit more leveling up fun, rather than waiting till lvl 35 to get their epics open.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Example: There's a video floating around of a Fire/Mental Blaster soloing a Giant Monster. Yes, a GIANT MONSTER was soloed....by a BLASTER.....before Incarnate powers even existed. Now if that isn't survivable and damaging enough.....I don't know what to tell you.
Melee/support and/or debuff? Rad/rad options for *all* (this time) the melee ATs. Make it so. The rest of the thread is going as well as expected.
Edit: Obligatory "this is not the suggestions forums" comment. Tag! your it!
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server