The Paragon Market - A Quick Update


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

So no Gunslinger costume set this week?

Can I ask how these updates are done? I mean, are they done with the server folks in Texas?

Because this is second week in a row that a piece of content has sorta been on the market (Titan Weapons via Costume Creator last week, and the Gunslinger costume set under Historical costumes in the market) but not actually been on the market.

I understand it may be something beyond control of Paragon Studios, but it just reflects poorly on the development staff.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
P.S. iPhone's are teh win. Working from the doctors office without my laptop. And the nurse is just shaking her head at me.
The other night I had a 102 degrees fever and I was doing three college papers and forum diving while in bed...Yes, Iphones are teh win!

Feel better!


Also, I don't have a problem with IOs going on sale in the paragon market, as long as they aren't purples, PvPs or Hami's. I like the idea that they are soulbound and increase with level, that idea actually is awesome and might make me buy them early on.


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Originally Posted by McCharraigin View Post
Do not get this nerfed as the the story arc writers got the fire farms nerfed in the mistaken belief that if there were no Fire Farms their stories, which get hardly any rewards, will get played...if I sound bitter it is because I actually enjoyed playing AE missions, but the authors role in getting the Fire Farms nerfed, and thus reducing my supply of orange salvage which I bought with tickets, has left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Also, some of us, do not care to fill the pockets of Ebil Marketeers, yet are happy to spend money to help support this game..
I think you're misunderstanding my position. For the record, yes I am an ebil marketeer, but that is not the cause of my complaint. I believe that the impact of this move on the actual market prices will be negligible, so I'm not concerned about the devs stealing my (metaphorical) lunch. My objection is purely that the IOs being sold are better than the ones obtainable in game.

This is always a tricky line to walk in F2P games. There will always be people who are willing to pay to be "uber" and as such there is an advantage to the devs in catering to them. However a perception that the game hs become "pay to win" will drive off players. If changes were made to bring parity between store bought IOs and regular IOs then the SBEs become simply a matter of trading money for time and I have zero problems with that. If SBEs and regular IOs behave the same then the devs can add any IOs they want (including purple and PvPIOs) to the store and I will not care in the least (disclaimer: I will complain if they add store exclusive IOs).

Until that happens I will continue to ***** and moan every time a new IO is added.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Hmmm...this makes me wonder if Crushing Impact was a big seller on the market (though Adeon seems to doubt it).
I've worked Crushing Impacts from time to time. It isn't a bad set but it's also not wildly popular. Most melee characters focus on defense before recharge so it tends to be more of a filler set. Given that and the relatively low market price I'd be surprised if many.

The other side of it is that having a character with only a few scaling sets isn't that great unless the sets themselves are really good. Having a full set of scaling IOs is not currently possible (or at least it isn't possible with useful sets) which limits the appeal of the sets overall. After all if you're going to spend the money, you want a full set of sets. Now Thunderstrike I can see might be selling well, the value for a blaster/defneder/corruptor in having a couple of ranged defense bonuses at low levels is pretty big.


 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Once you buy them, you can only claim them once, on one character. If you want them for another character, you need to buy them again. "Account bound" means you can't trade them to a character off of your account. They can't go in storage bins, be sold, etc.
Well, except you can mail them to yourself.

So you can buy some sets for a level 20 character, and when you reach 47+ and respec into an endgame build you can unslot these and mail them to the next low level alt. This is especially easy since I now have 30 enhancement slots on all characters to store IOs after a respec.

I am of two minds about the big advantage of exemplaring with store bought IOs. One one hand I have three builds per character, so I can make an exemplar build in addition to my end game build if I want to. On the other hand, I agree it's strange that the store bought IOs are superior and I strongly feel that normal IO recipes should change with level the way store bought IOs do. Not only would it encourage exemplars which in my mind is a good thing, but it means I can start working on my IO build in the 30s instead of having to wait to 47 to slot out my positional defense characters. That would really make the slow time of 37 to 46 much more enjoyable.


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Posted

So the new IO sets are 450 at 50% off? At half price they're about twice as much as the maximum I'd consider paying.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Once you buy them, you can only claim them once, on one character. If you want them for another character, you need to buy them again. "Account bound" means you can't trade them to a character off of your account. They can't go in storage bins, be sold, etc.
then they need to reword them, because everything I've read on them saysyou can trade them between characters you have, but not to anyone else.

Basically they're tied to your global and can be traded amongth your own characters.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by McCharraigin View Post
Do not get this nerfed as the the story arc writers got the fire farms nerfed in the mistaken belief that if there were no Fire Farms their stories, which get hardly any rewards, will get played...
Lisa, I like your posts, but I find this one baffling. The reason Fire Farms got whacked with the nerf bat wasn't because the story-focused AE users complained, it was because the rewards they offered were out of line with the effort involved in them.

If you really want to draw a parallel to this, I guess you could, but it's again a case of minimal effort (plonk down some $$) giving a better reward than you get from playing the game as designed, and I don't know that you want to make the case that less effort ought to lead to better rewards. IMO, that doesn't create a sustainable game.

Quote:
if I sound bitter it is because I actually enjoyed playing AE missions, but the authors role in getting the Fire Farms nerfed, and thus reducing my supply of orange salvage which I bought with tickets, has left a very sour taste in my mouth.
I think there were overriding game balance reasons for the changes made, which may have made the authors happy but which were, at best, incidental to the happiness of that portion of the playerbase.

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Also, some of us, do not care to fill the pockets of Ebil Marketeers, yet are happy to spend money to help support this game.
I'm curious why you seem to want to insult broad groups of players. That doesn't seem like you.

As far as it goes, I don't know that I have a particular problem with the selling of crafted IOs on the market, provided the price-point remains high enough that it won't obviate the in-game market. Like Adeon, though, I'm bothered by the precedent of selling strictly better versions of these sets. People keep saying, "Well, as long as there are no purples, I'm fine with it..."

Thing is, the types of bonuses offered by the purple sets are very limited. The ginormous +recharge bonus is nice, but purples don't generally grant non-psi defense bonuses (the exception being the 6th slot in the confuse set). Being able to keep your +def set bonuses down to 27 or 22 (respectively) means that these sets grant something purple sets cannot. They are better than the standard versions of these sets, and in terms of set bonuses granted, arguably better than the purple sets people seem fine with painting as "off-limits".


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Originally Posted by Doughboy View Post
Yep. I said the same thing in freedom beta. These scaling IOs are more powerful than what is otherwise available in the game.

I'd love to see all IOs function this way. I've bought some of the resistance IOs. They work great. However, I don't like these being available only through the store.
I think this is one of my great cruxes also. I don't mind the "time vs. money" thing, but the ones bought via the Paragon Market are better than the ones in game. So what's the point of earning them in game, especially if it's going to be harder to mix and match between earned IOs and store-bought IOs? Is there something I'm missing?


 

Posted

Not (completely) downing what's on the market this week, but being online when the Gunslinger costume pieces popped up on the market only to see them disappear made me one sad panda. They looked so awesome, and now I've gotta wait. And didn't they just put the Autumn aura on beta YESTERDAY? The heck is point of testing it there if you release it the next day on live? Either way, another 'meh' week for the market, but not as bad as last week, though that would be pretty hard to do.

Hope we get Gunslinger costume pieces before titan weapons honestly.


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These purchasable enhancements are something we've actually received a lot of demand for,
Quote:
Pulverizing Fisticuffs
What?


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Shadowblaze View Post
Not (completely) downing what's on the market this week, but being online when the Gunslinger costume pieces popped up on the market only to see them disappear made me one sad panda. They looked so awesome, and now I've gotta wait. And didn't they just put the Autumn aura on beta YESTERDAY? The heck is point of testing it there if you release it the next day on live? Either way, another 'meh' week for the market, but not as bad as last week, though that would be pretty hard to do.

Hope we get Gunslinger costume pieces before titan weapons honestly.
I dont suppose that you happened to snag any screen shots of it did you?


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Posted

If you actually want to make money of ios dont put up **** like pulverizing fisticuffs.


 

Posted

This is a slippery slope devs. Cause I know and you know that you WILL eventually have just about every set up for grabs because people will buy these. They are BETTER than the ones the drop in game which is complete rubbish.

The cat is out of the bag now too so dont do something stupid like nerf the ones your selling in the store, you have really only one choice at this point, and that is to make the set bonus on normal IOs scale as well.

In all honesty the invention system is currently a joke. You cant even take advantage of IOs until your lvl 50 and have farmed everything under gods green earth because the ones you should be slotting at level 30 cost triple what they cost at lvl 50 because the ones at 30 are just plain better due to the fact that they will work for 20 levels of gameplay and the ones at 50 only work for 5.

The more wealthy players or just players at 50 have complete control of the prices and the market, and therefor hardly anyone can take advantage of proper set bonus at a reasonable level.

The most fun I have ever had on a toon was my widow and it was because for SOME reason at that time there were an abundance of lvl 30-35 IOs on the market, I was all bonused out by lvl 35 and it really made the game alot of fun. Instead of the chore of grinding to 50 knowing all the time that you SHOULD be able to get some sets but you cant.

For gods sake do something about this. This is the perfect time to fix this crap. You want to sell IOs and such? Fine. You want to sell purples and PVP ios? Ok sure do that too I dont care. BUT PLEASE, fix this crappy set up. I dont like to compare to other MMOs because I honestly do think that 90% of the time we are better than any of them out there, but this is the first MMO ive ever played where you work your *** off to get an amazing "sword"(io whatever) but you try to do some lower level content charge into battle and realize the sword in your hand has disappeared.


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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I think a separate market section for the forums would be a good idea.

And get well soon - or at least before the UStream broadcast
I look forward to this. I'd like to give feedback in official threads for all the items on the Market (current AND past) so we can hopefully get concerns addressed - for me it's primarily costume items that need tweaks.


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Posted

Those IOs are too easy to get in game for that price point. It doesnt take half a month of playtime (900pts worth) to get them.

Now Kinetic Combats take weeks of farming A-merits to get or you buy off the Auction House for more than an entire set of Touch of Deaths or Mako's go for. I would buy those without hesitation. Multiple times. (Basilisk Gazes are good for that too).

The only motivation I have for buying these is to motivate Marketing to put the IOs I actually want up on the market.


 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
then they need to reword them, because everything I've read on them says you can trade them between characters you have, but not to anyone else.

Basically they're tied to your global and can be traded among your own characters.
UberGuy is wrong. The Attuned/AccountBound IOs can be globally emailed, but only to yourself.

It's the Boosted (+1 to +5) Enhancements that can't even be shared among your alts (and, if traded, lose their Boost).


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Posted

A lot of demand for IOs comes from the mid range levels of the game because players can use them as they get higher instead of having to be higher to use them in the first place.

As others have noted, there is a lack of supply in the mid levels. You guys as the developers can remedy this in a few ways : the paragon market and seeding wentworths with mid level stuffs.

A lot of people would instantly jump on this suggestion and say ' but if they wanted to they could just increase the drop rate' . The problem with adjusting drop rates of mid level stuffs is that not all of that is going to trickle to WWs via the players and thus won't be as widely available as desired.

The problem with using the paragon market is pricing. Having multiple toons is a primary draw of this game, but having to fork out cash for each of them will instantly turn alot of players off, moreso if the prices are seen as 'unreasonably high'. That is how many people see the prices on the paragon market - unreasonably high. The reason for this is because players are expecting micro transactions and getting medium transactions instead.

I would suggest some combination of seeding WWs with mid level IO recipes (rare and uncommon along with salvages) and lowering prices on paragon market uncommon sets level 40 or below. This two pronged solution allows players two options for getting stuff they want. The WW seeding also has the benefit of fighting influence inflation by 100% instead of 10% of normal transactions.


I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
There are currently two rules for exemplaring and set bonuses:

1) If you exemplar more than 3 levels below the level of the enhancement, the set bonus from that enhancement will shut off. This means that if you exemplar below level 47 with a level 50 IO, it will not provide set bonuses.

2) If you exemplar more than 3 levels below the minimum level of the set, the set bonuses from that set will shut off.

Store bought IOs ignore rule #1 because they have no level of their own.

All enhancements have their enhancement values scale down when you exemplar (though they do it based on modifiers in a table and based on the difference between your normal and exemplared level, they do not become the same as lower level IOs as you've described). These Store Bought Enhancements do it on a slightly different scale that, based on testing in the beta, made normal IOs have slightly better enhancement values at some levels and SBEs have better values at others. Those values were so small that I think they're mostly irrelevant, but the set bonuses are still significant.

These Store Bought Enhancements, at their maximum level, give enhancement values at their maximum level. If you exemplar below 37 with normal level 40 IOs, the set bonuses shut off. If you exemplar below 47 with normal level 50 IOs, the set bonuses shut off. Not so with these. These have the enhancement value of their max level when you are at the max level, and you can exemplar all the way down to 3 levels below the minimum level of the set and keep the set bonuses. That is superior to the in-game level 50 IOs. It's also superior to in-game level 30 IOs, as the level 30s don't give level 50 enhancement values at level 50.
Yeah, I just did some testing and discovered my error. The exemplaring starts with the 'current level' of the Attuned Enhancement and then applies the exemplar curve to the IO. If you're at or passed the max level of the set, then the 'current level' is the max level.


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Posted

Just got the Autumn path and although it's a very niche concept, I happen to have a couple of toons this would be awesome for (Primeva, woo!). I really like how the bigger plants show up when you land from jumping or flying. I kind of wish there was a heavy/lite variation so that you can choose to have the larger foliage effect as a standard one when you're standing still and not just have it for when you jump up and down.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
- 50% off the Time Manipulation Powerset: Beam Rifle has been one if our highest selling items amongst Free and Premium players, so we figured this would be a good solid buy for our Premium folks.
Is that colon supposed to be a period? Otherwise, it's confusing.


iow, what's on sale for 50% off? Time or Beam Rifle? I'm guessing Time?


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Originally Posted by Twoflower View Post
But "these three aren't bad" is the crux of that. If you'd offered a fantastically powerful and expensive set like Basilisk's Gaze or Kinetic Combat... well, personally I'd be cheering since I hate having to track down this unobtainium at Wentworth's, but I suspect some marketeers would be fuming. So take it one step at a time, definitely.
I approve of Enhancements being sold in the Store. My only complaint is they are too expensive. They should be priced at a point where it's realistic to fill a build out with them. To me, that means a price of 25-50 cents each.

I don't think marketeers are too worried about this. Plenty of people will get them for "free" from the market still. If any marketeers are upset by this, they can take a flying leap. I want options. I don't want the market to be the only realistic source of IOs. I say sell them all. If reasonably priced, I'll buy.

P.S. Anyone worried about pay to win, that ship has already sailed. This game has a strong pay to win aspect to it ever since Freedom launched. The Incarnate system being pay-only is at the very heart of it. I don't mind it at all.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I think you're misunderstanding my position. For the record, yes I am an ebil marketeer, but that is not the cause of my complaint. I believe that the impact of this move on the actual market prices will be negligible, so I'm not concerned about the devs stealing my (metaphorical) lunch. My objection is purely that the IOs being sold are better than the ones obtainable in game.

This is always a tricky line to walk in F2P games. There will always be people who are willing to pay to be "uber" and as such there is an advantage to the devs in catering to them. However a perception that the game hs become "pay to win" will drive off players. If changes were made to bring parity between store bought IOs and regular IOs then the SBEs become simply a matter of trading money for time and I have zero problems with that. If SBEs and regular IOs behave the same then the devs can add any IOs they want (including purple and PvPIOs) to the store and I will not care in the least (disclaimer: I will complain if they add store exclusive IOs).
For me, the precise way in which they have an advantage is significant. I tend to feel the opposite: I care less about the attuned enhancements, but I would care more about purples. For me, "pay to win" implies a significant advantage towards progress, and the exemplar effects do not directly accelerate progress. The amount of time the average player is exemplared makes this advantage normally minimal. The real advantage to me has always been the leveling *upward* of the attuned enhancements, which does in fact offer a progress advantage. However, that advantage is not one of power, but more of cost and convenience. At no time do the attuneds "outlevel" comparable IOs of comparable level, so at no time do they generate better results than theoretically possible in-game. What they do is offer identical results to the best possible results at all levels within their range. To me, that's a grey area, but clearly one where the store-bought IOs do not surpass what's achievable in-game.

The purples, however, are a special case. Their scarcity and (usually) cost prevents them from being acquirable at all in-game except through an enormous amount of in-game effort on a relative basis. This is also true, and sometimes more true, for certain specific IOs, but purples were *designed* to be this way, which makes them a special case. In that case, the devs would be selling a different form of pay to win: pay to achieve something that was explicitly designed to be difficult to achieve beyond the normal levels of difficulty in the game. It would be like selling Master badges. That has no affect on power or ability, but it is a variant of pay to win: its paying to bypass the difficulty curve for a special task.

To me, these are both grey areas, but I think the attuned Mako's walk the line, while selling purples would be hopping back and forth across it. I would be much more likely to object to the latter than the former.

Unless you sold them for an astronomical amount of points, and that creates a different set of problems.


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Posted

I love the autumn aura but it has nothing to do with autumn (at least, as far as I can tell, the leaves are growing, right?). Change the name to the spring aura or the verdant aura.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
For me, the precise way in which they have an advantage is significant. I tend to feel the opposite: I care less about the attuned enhancements, but I would care more about purples. For me, "pay to win" implies a significant advantage towards progress, and the exemplar effects do not directly accelerate progress. The amount of time the average player is exemplared makes this advantage normally minimal.
I hope the current developers feel the same way, and then apply that to set bonuses on in-game IOs by removing the 3-below-enhancement-level rule.

However, the original rationale for the 3-below-enhancement-level rule wasn't about progress at all (you couldn't even gain xp when exemplared back then), but to keep exemplared players from outclassing native level characters due to the larger number of set bonuses from their higher number of enhancement slots.

Why is this no longer an issue if the set bonuses are acquired through real money?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twoflower View Post
I don't particularly mind rare enhancements on the market. These three in particular are not that hard to get at auction, so it's strictly a convenience buy to get them from the marketplace, or great for Premium players who don't want to get IO and Auction licenses but still want to mix up their builds.

But "these three aren't bad" is the crux of that. If you'd offered a fantastically powerful and expensive set like Basilisk's Gaze or Kinetic Combat... well, personally I'd be cheering since I hate having to track down this unobtainium at Wentworth's, but I suspect some marketeers would be fuming. So take it one step at a time, definitely.
As a marketeer, these things represent a way to exchange eye-are-ell money for fake money at a sanctioned, safe rate that doesn't encourage RMT. It allows players with a desire to invest meaningful real money in the game to do so and improves their exemplaring experience. And it's not priced so low and so easily that they're likely to have a massive impact on the market. So... far as I see, win/win.