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Your analogy is good, but it can also be applied to warshades. You're basically stating that peacebringers are capable and able to fill desired roles. When it comes to things like keeping a team alive, though.. My warshade has hardly considered that, because he melts through everything so quickly all by himself that no one ever has a chance to start dying most of the time.... There are tough spots that make me REALLY wish dwarf had auto-taunt in all attacks. That's EXTREMELY annoying when I have squishy friends with me and they end up taking aggro and dying instantly.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You're looking at AOE damage on the warshade. Fair enough. Meanwhile, the flexibility of my PB *has* gotten it complemented - being able to off tank and prevent a team wipe more than once, for instance.
Let me put it this way - There are times that a mutlitool (giving me a screwdriver, knife, pliers, etc.) is a lifesaver - and it's not the same situation every single time. Is it "as good" a screwdriver as a regular old single use one? Nah, it's probably not as comfortable, for instance, or a little harder to get into some spots - but on the flip side, it helps out when I need those pliers *far* more than that regular screwdriver would, and it's far more portable than a whole toolbox full of single-use tools. |
And, edit... I wasn't just looking at aoe damage on a warshade.. I was looking at aoe damage with potential to be at the damage cap a good majority of the time and close enough the rest of the time, while having capped resistance in most situations via perma eclipse.
Another edit!: This is something I forgot to mention, but massive stuns from unchain essence stacked with inky aspect (which I like to TP into spawns with while Super Speed+Stealth IO'd) before I hit eclipse. Stacked layers of control.. And a massive ST hold that could be utilized much better than I use it since I don't place a lot of emphasis on single target attacks on my build-- I use my warshade for aoe.
Then shouldn't you be concerned about being made superfluous thanks to the iTrials? Honestly, my Ice/Emp - hardly an "AOE Powerhouse" - has started, as you said, "melting spawns" on a regular basis. ST and AOE control, self heals, self buffs, pet to help with damage and aggro - and the self buffs affect the team. Yes, there's time up to that, sure - but "melting spawns" is fairly commonplace at this point (and is going to get worse as the Incarnate system moves on.)
We can't even say you'll have 12 levels of doing it before everyone else (38-50) because the powers exemp down to 45, and you've still got to slot up.
(This, by the way, is a bit of a gripe of mine about the entire Incarnate system. You'll see it echoed elsewhere, by blasters for instance who are facing "I bring damage to the table!" "Well, so does everyone else. What else ya got?" Out of everything, my Earth/Emp stands out more than anyone thanks to Force Bubble. Everyone else just sort of melts into a "damage pool.")
And, of course, as people keep nuking spawns, you're going to have to rush in to get yourself mired/eclipsed up... the Warshade has to have a team, post-Incarnate, that is willing to work with them on this. The plus side, of course, is a wide variety of dead bodies - the minus, that you may not get to use them while they're alive.
Which goes back to the other point about the PBs being self contained - I don't need to worry about that. Need light for for a hard target? Have it. Buff? Got it. Heal? Yep. *And* on the I-side the powers are usable while in form.
(Also, re-massive-ST-hold... I have one, as well, that does all its damage in one shot.)
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
That's a valid viewpoint, certainly, but I hope you could get behind a change that makes the powers just shy of knockback.
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Originally Posted by Vermain
it needs to go on Solar Flare. It is completely counterproductive to every kind of playstyle, since it's highly inaccurate for herding (or even just pushing dudes towards your team) and scatters like mad (making it harder for you, a person with a lot of decent melee attacks, to melee). There's pretty literally no effective tactical advantage it provides.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
All PB powers that have KB should be changed to KD
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
^I agree with that. Replace all KB with KD.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Horrible idea. Hope it never happens.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I do like the KD or KU idea for Solar Flare, as KB is not the most helpful for human form, which likes to be up close with things. Keeping it on Radiant Strike is a good idea, though. It's thematic for the power's look, and it's ST, so you can use it to control that one target.
I have an En/En Blaster and love knockback (that guy's battle cry is "This calls for more knockback!"), but it works better with his playstyle, which doesn't mind being at range. Solar Flare just doesn't mesh well with the other powers in the PB set, in my opinion, which makes it less powerful. And yes, while PBs do have ranged attacks, they're not all that great, and the melee or PB ones are much, much better.
Bill, I have seen many people post their hate for all the KB on Peacebringers... keeping some of that flavor with KD or KU would make a big difference for a lot of people, and still keep the visceral feel of those powers that I like.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
- Reduce recharge times and End costs of all attack powers. Hasten is not supposed to be required, but every PB build takes it to be effective.
- Increase base damage (I would be OK if this was just solo, like the Defenders get, because the damage bonus you get on most teams is good as is)
- Change resist shields to Defense, with some Defense Debuff protection. Resistance shields are useless when you get mezzed all the time. At least Defense would give you a chance of not getting mezzed.
- If the shields cannot be changed, then add some Status protection to the various shields. Just like with Blasters, standing there asleep or held or whatever while in human form, unable to participate is NOT FUN. Light Form is too long to wait for your human form status protection.
- Agree completely with EvilGeko's comments about Light Form
- Knock Back should be Knock Down, with the option to change to Knock Back with KB enhancements
- Fix the Seekers once and for all, and tell us what was done
- Agree that all the mez powers PBs have should "match" i.e. if we have Stuns, everything should Stun, not some Stun and Some Hold, or vice versa.
- Why is Pulsar Mag 2 with 50% chance of +1 Mag? The animation time is long, it should just be Mag 3
PBs were designed several years ago, when characters being overpowered was a big concern (Remember how many times Regen Scrappers got nerfed? It was back then). So to hold them back, they got a special enemy group that did Boss level damage, low baseline damage, and vulnerability to mez. Well, PBs are certainly not overpowered in modern CoH terms. Personally, I do not think they are even close to being on par with Warshades.
Thank you, TimeShadow, for starting this thread. Hopefully we will see PBs get some help.
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
It's not that I as a PB player mind KB in the various powers, it's that the other people on my team/league don't like it. I continually hear "who's doing that KB, stop it."
Overall, I'm in favor of changing the KB to KD.
Crey Threat Assessment: Bayne
Virtueverse: Bayne
The Defenders of Paragon
On Knockback: I'll agree that changing the KB in Solar Flare to KD is a good idea. But I disagree with a blanket conversion of all KB. It's been proposed before and not just here on the Kheld boards. Everytime a KB power comes up there's at least one person who rails against it and says all KB should be removed from the game.
The Devs have been fairly consistent in their refusal to take KB out. They've done it with a power or two over the years but, for the large part, it sticks around. If for no other reason, because it's got major thematic value. Besides, I'm not sure how you justify KD on attacks that aren't on a vertical trajectory. That just doesn't make sense.
On Damage: This is where I think Khelds could stand a little improvement. As I said in another thread, we do Tanker level damage with our ranged attacks and hardly better with melee. The modifiers are currently 0.850 and 0.800 respectively.
- Reassess damage scales to reflect a melee modifier of 0.900 and a ranged modifier of 0.850.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
PEACEBRINGERS SUCK!!! (Now fully up to date for i21+
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i agree with this| I'll agree that changing the KB in Solar Flare to KD is a good idea. But I disagree with a blanket conversion of all KB. |
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| Reassess damage scales to reflect a melee modifier of 0.900 and a ranged modifier of 0.850. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Oh yea, here's my biggest wish: give Kheldians access to Air Superiority.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Yes please.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Oh yea, here's my biggest wish: give Kheldians access to Air Superiority.
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On KB, I would defy anyone to come up with a situation in game where Solar Flare wouldn't be better as KD. The other KB powers, I can sort of see, but KB plain hurts Solar Flare. It takes a power that should be a staple power for PB and turns it into a situational one.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
As a compromise, I think another part that should be incorporated into Cosmic Balance is KB reduction. Let's face it, even those that actually like their KB are still going to get heckled for it on teams, and it is in those particular teaming situations where KB really is not needed. I can see how some people may use it to their advantage on solo, but when you're on a full team with lots of AoE, you're not helping at all by blowing all the enemies out of the group and you're actually reducing the team's DPS. Use Solar Flare next to a fire brute with perma burn and ask him if he thinks your KB is useful. It's not fair to you because you just want to be able to use your powers, and it's not fair to the team because your participation might actually hurt them. No matter how much you might like KB, it's hard to ignore that in most teaming situations it just isn't useful at all.
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The difference, both thematically and mechanically, is just a matter of magnitude. An attack can knock someone off their feet by sheer force, or, by more force, it can knock them off their feet and 10 feet backwards. Hit someone hard enough in the gut (like R-Strike), and they'll drop to their knees momentarily. Hit them hard enough in the jaw, and they'll fall on their ***. Hit them with the force of a truck, and they will fly backwards. You don't need any vertical application of force until you start talking about knockup.|
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
If for no other reason, because it's got major thematic value. Besides, I'm not sure how you justify KD on attacks that aren't on a vertical trajectory. That just doesn't make sense.
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And I do not agree with Keeping R-strike as kb, simply because it is a staple in the PB single target chain, meaning you have to chase whatever you're fighting all over the place. You can aim them toward a wall, if there is one handy, or try to hover above them, but that simply doesn't work all the time.
I have a few storm characters, and the comparison to storm powers does not work well. Storm users frequently have other powers that can negate the knockback when needed (many immob powers). Storm users are very frequently ranged fighters, and keeping enemies away from them is their specialty. Most of their damage is frequently from their other set, and though they may lose damage if they don't use tornado/lightning storm all the time, they have other options for dealing damage when knockback is not appropriate. Also, Lightning storm can be used while jumping to largely turn kb into kd. They're kb can be aimed more appropriately (except for tornado which is chaos in a can), but the only way to aim Solar Flare is to use it at the edge of the mob; doing that limits the number of enemies hit and severely reduces the overall damage of the power.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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Air Superiority|
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
Besides, I'm not sure how you justify KD on attacks that aren't on a vertical trajectory. That just doesn't make sense.
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- +0.75 Knockup PvE only
- +0.75 Knockup If target is a player
Suppressed when Knocked, for 10 seconds (WhenInactive)
Smash DOWN = Knock UP ... in Air Superiority.
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
Besides, I'm not sure how you justify KD on attacks that aren't on a vertical trajectory. That just doesn't make sense.
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If it helps you any ... think of how Warshade Powers are Dark+Gravity based, with the "Gravity" flavor applying the Speed and Recharge Debuffs. Now think of Peacebringer Powers as being Light+Anti-Gravity based, with the "Anti-Gravity" flavor applying Knock*UP* effects to targets ... regardless of attack vector directionals. If you think of it as ANTI-GRAVITY ... in contrast/counterpoint to Warshade GRAVITY ... then changing *everything* to being KnockUP makes perfect sense.
Your turn ...
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I may as well add my opinion that I posted in another thread. It was formed after seeing how powerful and desirable to a team the VEATs are.
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And yes, I [nth] the proposal for Solar Flare to become a knockdown power. I don't have problems with any other PB powers doing knockback, but a radial knockback power is just silly. Besides, it is basically a Foot Stomp clone, and didn't that used to be KB and was changed because it was irritating (or was that just the Thugs Bruiser's version?)
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Originally Posted by Remmet
I would, however, like to see a buff to Cosmic Balance to basically "reflect" all or part of the buffs that the team gives the kheld back to the team, thus making them more desirable and a force multiplier in their own right. It's probably debatable whether a WS would need that change too, although I find it difficult to justify lore-wise that one would have it and the other doesn't.
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I'd go for that. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Oh yea, here's my biggest wish: give Kheldians access to Air Superiority.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Yes please.
On KB, I would defy anyone to come up with a situation in game where Solar Flare wouldn't be better as KD. The other KB powers, I can sort of see, but KB plain hurts Solar Flare. It takes a power that should be a staple power for PB and turns it into a situational one. |
Tank goes in, goes over the aggro cap. Multiple enemies start heading your way. SF, knock those enemies back toward the tank en masse.
The *only* way I'd be happy with a change like this to Solar Flare is if they turned Proton Scatter (already a cone) into - well, Torrent, basically. Reliable group knockback.
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The only thing I fail at is agreeing with your justification. Air Superiority only causes KD when used on the ground. Try it in the air sometime. All you'll see is the target drop like a stone (The same goes for Incandescent Strike). An obvious case of flavor not always matching design requirements but that's well beside the point |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Smash DOWN = Knock UP ... in Air Superiority.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
If it helps you any ... think of how Warshade Powers are Dark+Gravity based, with the "Gravity" flavor applying the Speed and Recharge Debuffs. Now think of Peacebringer Powers as being Light+Anti-Gravity based, with the "Anti-Gravity" flavor applying Knock*UP* effects to targets ... regardless of attack vector directionals. If you think of it as ANTI-GRAVITY ... in contrast/counterpoint to Warshade GRAVITY ... then changing *everything* to being KnockUP makes perfect sense.
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Whether it's theme or mechanics, trying to go through the looking glass and use Warshades as the definitive comparison to PBs isn't an effective way to assess them. The two are similar in some respects and radically different in others. "PBs should do X because Warshades can do Y" is overly simplistic, especially when talking about changes to either Kheldian AT.
But if you really wanna view it that way consider that Warshades have Knockback too. Dark Nova Blast and Detonation have the exact same KB as the Bright Nova versions. So does Gravitic Emanation, one of the most effective and popular Warshade powers. Hell, Extracted Essences have KB baked into their blasts too. Just to bring this post full circle, change Solar Flare to KD. Leave everything else as it is.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
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)
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/em facepalm|
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
The only thing I fail at is agreeing with your justification. Air Superiority only causes KD when used on the ground. Try it in the air sometime. All you'll see is the target drop like a stone (The same goes for Incandescent Strike).
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I even gave you the LINK to go to as reference. Here ... I'll do it for you again, Timeshadow. Try to use it this time ... you might learn something.
---> Air Superiority <---
- -1.6 Fly for 30s
- +0.75 Knockup PvE only
- +0.75 Knockup If target is a player
Suppressed when Knocked, for 10 seconds (WhenInactive)
- -1 Fly for 30s
- +2 Knockback (60% chance) PvE only
- +2 Knockback (60% chance) If target is a player
Suppressed when Knocked, for 10 seconds (WhenInactive)
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
The only thing I fail at is agreeing with your justification. Air Superiority only causes KD when used on the ground. Try it in the air sometime. All you'll see is the target drop like a stone (The same goes for Incandescent Strike).
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*SHOW ME* where in the Power Properties for either Air Superiority ... or Incandescent Strike ... there is ANY mention whatsoever of any verbiage even remotely akin to (when Target is on Ground) sort of conditional anywhere in either of these powers. And if you want to pull the "but Red Tomax City of Data is out of date!" excuse on me ... bring a screen capture from either Mids' or from within the game itself to back up your assertion here. Trick answer, before you even look ... YOU WON'T FIND ANY SUCH CONDITIONAL because it isn't there, and you just "made that up" that Air Superiority and Incandescent Strike "only causes KD when used on the ground" {censored}. Thank you for playing.
Point #2:
"Try using it in the air sometime" ... CLEARLY shows that you do not understand that it ISN'T Knockback, Knockdown, Knockup or KNOCK ANYTHING which makes affected targets fall out of the sky when you hit them with Air Superiority or Incandescent Strike. What makes them "fall out of the sky" like they do is the -1(.6) to Fly for 30s ... which TURNS OFF their ability to hang in the sky the way that bricks don't via Fly/Hover. This is also why, with some PvE Foes, it takes more than one hit from Air Superiority to make them fall out of the sky.
Now ... if you're quite finished parading your ignorance of how the game's mechanics, as written, *actually* work ... can we please get back to the topic at hand? Please?
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Why in goodness' name would I want the mobs away from me?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Ambush/extra aggro runs in to melee. You need to get them away from you. Solar flare gives a little extra time than just plain old KD would, and either the mobs are now in (typically less hazardous) ranged attack mode or have to take extra time re-closing to get back to melee.
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| Tank goes in, goes over the aggro cap. Multiple enemies start heading your way. SF, knock those enemies back toward the tank en masse. |
This just gets to a fundamental disconnect. You suggest things here that slow the battle down and honestly are tactically unsound options. You're better keeping the mobs close in order to use your own and others' AoEs. I was just doing a mission with my PB that illustrates that. Clump of NPCs around me. Used SF. The mobs are now scattered away so that Luminous can't get them all. Decided to use SF first, because it does more damage, but usually causes more scatter. This is just a plain bad choice to have to make. I spend much time in dwarf just to avoid the needless and deleterious KB that comes along with being a PB.
Is AoE KB comic-booky? Yes. Does it do anything productive? No.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Call it a "pause button." Need that extra little bit of time to combine/take an inspiration, make sure nothing's going to interrupt your shift, have Essence Boost/Reform Essence up - any number of things that suddenly getting more mobs on you might require. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Why in goodness' name would I want the mobs away from me?
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| Why in goodness' name would I want to do something so silly as push them toward the tank? |
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Build and play so you never need one.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Call it a "pause button."
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| To keep them all in one nice, bit AOE-able group instead of two? |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Faster shifting - yes please.
Build Up, Conserve Power, Dull Pain in forms - yes please.
KB to KD: Only on Solar Flare. Absolutely yes on Solar Flare. Definitely not on Radiant Strike. Hell, make it 100% on Radiant Strike.
Some manner of buff to the shields: Sounds good.
Light Form getting the SoW treatment: Sounds good.
Light Form getting the Shadow Meld treatment: Sounds great.
My suggestion: Punch-voke on Dwarf Strike, Smite.
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Non-answer. My build does not affect what's thrown at me. And while you may want to throw a few billion at IOs on a build, it shouldn't be seen as a requirement... and doesn't tend to come into play until late-game. I get Solar Flare at 26 (and the dwarf version, obviously, earlier.) So how do you propose I "build and play so I never need one" at that point?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Build and play so you never need one.
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Get your mind out of "At level 50 I" and "When fully slotted, I..." because that doesn't help on the way there.
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| Wasting time in set-up where you could be killing. |
My only char that I play is a peacebringer so I'm am very picky about changes to them. One main thing is I DON'T want to lose my KB, I'm with Bill here, although making Solar Flare KD would be great. And I dont want to have to use up a slot for a +KB when slots are in short supply anyway. Changes I would like are:
Solar Flare changed to KD
Inherent doing something solo
Pulsar and IS being the same hold or stun
shorter shifting times
Dwarf not interrupt during shift
Kheld sash
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I don't let myself get overwhelmed. I don't even have a level 50 PB. My PB is only 40 and just starting to get IOs. I play aggressively, and I've never seen AoE KB as anything but a hindrance. Scattering mobs is not helpful. Not for mitigation, not for damage. Never. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Non-answer. My build does not affect what's thrown at me. And while you may want to throw a few billion at IOs on a build, it shouldn't be seen as a requirement... and doesn't tend to come into play until late-game. I get Solar Flare at 26 (and the dwarf version, obviously, earlier.) So how do you propose I "build and play so I never need one" at that point?
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And I don't care how godly you THINK you are with KB, all AoE KB causes unhelpful scatter. Many NPCs have ranged preferred A.I.s which KB absolutely screws you with. PBs have very strong melee attacks which unlike Solar Flare are powerful enough that the KB is fine. There, if you KB someone with Radiant Strike you can pick them off with a ranged blast.
Furthermore, the problem with Solar Flare giving you "breathing space" is that you can't use it whenever you want. That's right there enough reason for a change. No one has to think about when to use Footstomp. Is there a NPC around. Great! Are there multiples? Even better. There's a reason that when Energy Torrent gets added to epics, even epics of ranged ATs that it is reduced to KD.
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| Get your mind out of "At level 50 I" and "When fully slotted, I..." because that doesn't help on the way there. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Let me put it this way - There are times that a mutlitool (giving me a screwdriver, knife, pliers, etc.) is a lifesaver - and it's not the same situation every single time. Is it "as good" a screwdriver as a regular old single use one? Nah, it's probably not as comfortable, for instance, or a little harder to get into some spots - but on the flip side, it helps out when I need those pliers *far* more than that regular screwdriver would, and it's far more portable than a whole toolbox full of single-use tools.