What would you think if Cosmic Balance gave Defense instead of Res?
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
Quote:
No, it doesn't. I don't find it unhelpful, the teams I'm on with my PBs (and anything else causing AOE KB) don't find it unhelpful - so, no. I find it useful, you refuse to believe it with almost religious fervor, so really - no point in continuing the argument.
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
And I don't care how godly you THINK you are with KB, all AoE KB causes unhelpful scatter.
|
Quote:
I'm just going to ignore the rest of this argument and point out that this assertion - this one alone - is patently ridiculous. Unless 100% of your time spent on teams is spent on teams that you have personally constructed out of close friends who share your passion for knockback, I guarantee that a large portion of these team members find Solar Flare KB unhelpful and are just too polite or too apathetic to say anything. Acting like you can speak authoritatively about so many other people's preferences is just ludicrous and hurts your argument.
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
the teams I'm on with my PBs (and anything else causing AOE KB) don't find it unhelpful
|
Quote:
I agree 100%
|
Originally Posted by Nericus
All PB powers that have KB should be changed to KD
|
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
Quote:
As much as I think people who do not like KB are idiots, I have to agree with this. I like KB, and I have found myself startled or annoyed when people do it and I was not expecting it when I was on other characters. I mostly just truck with it on my melee types, but for my characters with targeted patches, I HATE it when teammates knock enemies out of those patches. That KB just ruined the effects of Freezing Rain, etc. Gee, thanks.|
Originally Posted by teflonshugenja
I'm just going to ignore the rest of this argument and point out that this assertion - this one alone - is patently ridiculous. Unless 100% of your time spent on teams is spent on teams that you have personally constructed out of close friends who share your passion for knockback, I guarantee that a large portion of these team members find Solar Flare KB unhelpful and are just too polite or too apathetic to say anything. Acting like you can speak authoritatively about so many other people's preferences is just ludicrous and hurts your argument.
|
Bill, a lot of the things you are arguing for, you can still get the same benefit from KD or KU. You need breathing room? Those give it to you. If you NEED to move away, you have the time to do it. You don't need Solar Flare to be KB to do the things you want. At the very least, you kind of have to acknowledge that a lot of people dislike the KB and do not find it helpful in an AT with a melee bent.
I'll fight anyone that suggests taking all the KB out of Energy Blast or Melee, and even Radiant Strike, but fighting for it in Solar Flare is just... stubborn and not all that helpful. Frankly, I was shocked when Castle took the KB out of Dwarf Flare and kept it in Solar. That made no sense, since him and BAB were changing KB into KD in so many melee sets at the time. This is a change that should have been made years ago.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Seems like we are getting stuck on this kb thing and derailing the rest. Can we, for the sake of having a consensus, agree that we would like an option for pb powers to do either kb or kd? Then everyone should be happy.
The initial purpose of this thread was to consolidate a list of agreed upon fixes to parade across the Dev's path whenever possible, which was a great idea. The more organized and vocal we can become with it, the more likely changes will happen.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Quote:
And unless you've been on my teams, you're making an assumption with nothing to back it up.
|
Originally Posted by teflonshugenja
I'm just going to ignore the rest of this argument and point out that this assertion - this one alone - is patently ridiculous. Unless 100% of your time spent on teams is spent on teams that you have personally constructed out of close friends who share your passion for knockback, I guarantee that a large portion of these team members find Solar Flare KB unhelpful and are just too polite or too apathetic to say anything. Acting like you can speak authoritatively about so many other people's preferences is just ludicrous and hurts your argument.
|
Quote:
Other than the fact that PBAoE KB is always deleterious in this game, but yeah besides that.
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And unless you've been on my teams, you're making an assumption with nothing to back it up.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
The only easy way to do this is to make Solar Flare KD. There are means to create a choice, but the devs (well at least Castle) was pretty against doing it because of the work involved.
|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Seems like we are getting stuck on this kb thing and derailing the rest. Can we, for the sake of having a consensus, agree that we would like an option for pb powers to do either kb or kd? Then everyone should be happy.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I'd like to see:
-Lower Recharge to Photon Seekers (60 secs?) and up the damage.
-Up the damage on Gleaming Bolt, Eyes, and Blast (leave rech/end the same.)
-Allow for toggle suppresion in the forms.
-Lower cast/animation times for form switching.
Quote:
There you go with the "always." That's your opinion, period. Quit trying to put it out as fact.
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Other than the fact that PBAoE KB is always deleterious in this game, but yeah besides that.
|
Quote:
You do realize that suppressed toggles still cost endurance ... even though they aren't doing anything for you ...?
|
Originally Posted by Mercury_Down
-Allow for toggle suppresion in the forms.
|
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Quote:
No opinion. There's never a situation where KD isn't better. You keep saying there is, but you can't construct a scenario where you're not better off with KD. You said it yourself. You're not a min-maxer. I am. I've actually tried to come up with a reason. I've gone in and tested SF versus Dwarf Flare and there just isn't a comparison. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
There you go with the "always." That's your opinion, period. Quit trying to put it out as fact.
|
At best KB isn't TOO hurtful against NPCs that have melee preferences, but otherwise it's not helpful. Sorry if that offends you, but it's true.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
I've used shockwave to push enemies into burn/ice/tar/etc patches. Therefore, KB has a practical use.| At best KB isn't TOO hurtful against NPCs that have melee preferences, but otherwise it's not helpful. Sorry if that offends you, but it's true. |
Of course, when it's coming from a pbaoe that spews the enemies surrounding you off in all directions, it loses that directional purpose. Or you waste half of the circle trying to use it in a directional manner.
You're both being ridiculous, by the way.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Which is why the devs have always shot this idea down. It WON'T happen. Period.
|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
You do realize that suppressed toggles still cost endurance ... even though they aren't doing anything for you ...?
|
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
I said PBAoE is always deleterious. Targeted AoE is just almost always deleterious. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I've used shockwave to push enemies into burn/ice/tar/etc patches. Therefore, KB has a practical use.
|
Quote:
| Of course, when it's coming from a pbaoe that spews the enemies surrounding you off in all directions, it loses that directional purpose. Or you waste half of the circle trying to use it in a directional manner. |
Quote:
| You're both being ridiculous, by the way. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I know. the entire opinion is ridiculous. This game has loads of powersets doing knockback. And loads of people whining about it. You know what I do when someone on my team whines about knockback? I target them, turn on fly, hit follow and put shockwave on auto. Then I go have a smoke.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
I'd just do to you what most folks do to Infernia and Glacia. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I know. the entire opinion is ridiculous. This game has loads of powersets doing knockback. And loads of people whining about it. You know what I do when someone on my team whines about knockback? I target them, turn on fly, hit follow and put shockwave on auto. Then I go have a smoke.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Yea, it's much more fun to do when I have star or the team leader agrees with me.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Strange, I seem to have done so. You just don't care to admit that, hey, maybe I'm right for *me.*|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No opinion. There's never a situation where KD isn't better. You keep saying there is, but you can't construct a scenario where you're not better off with KD.
|
Quote:
| At best KB isn't TOO hurtful against NPCs that have melee preferences, but otherwise it's not helpful. Sorry if that offends you, but it's true. |
You want to say *you* don't find it useful and leave it there? Fine. That's your opinion. But don't go around telling me that *I* don't, and there's no way that *I* (or anyone else) actually could.
Okay, I hate that two great players like Memphis Bill and Evil Gecko are wrangling over Solar Flare. Both of them have legitimate arguments, from a given perspective.
My regular game-partner is naturally a barely feral Scrapper. If it weren't for the realities of the game and his dedication to 'assisting' me, he would be off on the other end of the map, 'arresting' villains solo. He's the only person I've ever seen, who plays a Defender like it was a Scrapper. I've had him answer the question, 'How did you die?' with, 'I wasn't aggressive enough.'
So, I recognize Evil Gecko's perspective and I've played my human-form PB that way - occasionally. Certainly, teamed with my Scrapper friend, the large KB component of Solar Flare is a source of annoyance. (Red Tomax says +4.154 KB, which does seem like a lot!) In larger teams, I have gotten yelled at, even when I did the 'good' thing of aiming the KB towards the Tanker, because there's So Much KB that I've blown spawns right 'through' the Tanker and scattered them off on the other side.
On the other hand, I also recognize the 'I'm a squishy' sense of what Memphis Bill is describing. Even with full shields, a Peacebringer is less durable than I'd like to be. If I've been detoggled for whatever reason, be it Rez, Mez, or a shape-change, then Solar Flare with its powerful KB can buy me time to pop an inspiration and toggle-up, or time to further shift to Dwarf.
Memphis Bill is recognizing the utility of the KB in creating some 'breathing space', while Evil Gecko is frustrated, because the KB interferes with using Solar Flare as part of a blasting, stomping, shifting attack-chain.
And they're Both 'right'.
That said, here is how _I_ would like to see Solar Flare work:
.70 or so KB - It's knock-down, unless the enemy is a puny grey weakling, but it is easily enhanced to full-bore KB with the right enhancements. Alternately, leave the magnitude unchanged, but convert this to Knock-Up.And if, as the Description seems to indicate, it IS a Footstomp clone - ("You channel the might of your Kheldian energy into the very Earth itself. The ground erupts and cracks with luminous energy, blasting all nearby foes, knocking them back and reducing their Defense.") - then is should absolutely Work just like Footstomp! In that case, the KB should absolutely be less-than-or-equal-to 1.0, and not equivalent to Energy Torrent. And even then, I would rather have Knock Up.
A brief, 1-2 second Stun/Disorient component, just to keep the buggers off your back for a moment.
It should be effective, regardless of the Kheldian's 'grounded' status, since it's an explosion of Energy and not a super-powered foot-stomp - regardless of whatever animation is attached to it.
Additionally, every time a Kheldian releases one of its 'energy forms' and falls back into being a mere Human (especially if it's involuntary!) there should be a Stunning flare/flash of energy. Only a few seconds worth, but enough time for the player to get reoriented, or at least press his control-tray switch macro, so he's not trying to play Human-form with his non-operational Nova/Dwarf buttons!
I agree with others, that the toggles in Human-form should only be suppressed, held in abeyance, not cancelled, during a shape-shift. Further, they should not be turned off by Mez, either - they are all defensive only, anyway. The idea that a hero who inherently has Flight from the very first level, could be knocked out of Nova-form by a Mez and then plummet to his death because he can't fly in Human form... is ludicrous.
Actually, I think that transforming from Nova to Human form almost ought to auto-toggle Energy Flight, or at least leave you with the brief hover of Teleportation... Except, I know that a favorite tactic is to dive-bomb a crowd in Nova form and shift-fall through Human form (accepting a small amount of falling damage) to uncork Solar Flare and pop a couple of self-buffs, before shifting again to Dwarf and making with the mayhem mano-a-mano. So any lingering flight status would defeat that tactic - unless Solar Flare no longer required a Grounded condition...
Pulsar:
If this is to remain a simple stun, then the magnitude definitely needs a boost. Also, the recharge is ridiculously long, for such a minor effect - no damage, no debuff. And, again, the activation time is inordinately long, for such a one-dimensional power.
Now, if this was a Daze/Hold effect... and maybe it shared the Def debuff effect of other PB attacks... ... Nah, it would Still need better magnitude and shorter activation/recharge times. Frankly, Solar Flare does more than Pulsar and does it Better, even with the annoyance of KB... er, well, in This case the KB is part of the effect, as the KB 'stuns' the targets.
Quantum Flight:
Okay, I tried this, died six times in a row, and promptly respecced out of it. I know that there are folks who swear by this power, but I'm in the camp that swears At it. My problem? Well, I frankly Suck at flying. Except in the open air of the city, or a large chamber/long hallway, I ALWAYS get hung up on a corner, glued to the furniture I was trying to fly over, or tangled in a chandelier. Being Phased does not help and being in 'emergency escape mode' almost makes it Worse!
And then there's the timer... You have 60 seconds to escape immanent death - unfortunately this power Also requires ALL of your endurance, in order to last that long... So, in actuality, you have 60 seconds, or until you run out of Endurance - whichever comes first. When the power runs out, you had Better be someplace safe, or you Will Die.
Group Energy Flight:
Well... ...um... ...Alright, let's just admit that, in the current game, this power is worthless.
In the I-3 game, it might have had a Little bit of utility, but only for ferrying people who could Not fly to places that could only be reached by Flying. Tops of very tall buildings and the Shadow Shard are, really, the only places I can think of. Otherwise, the only selling point would be the 10 seconds of "WooHoo, I'm Flying!" for those who have never done so before.
Since I'm not going to hang around Atlas Park selling E-ticket rides to the noobs, I'm Not going to take this power - although maybe I should.
Frankly, I think it should be rolled into the inherent powers, for those very rare times when it might be marginally useful, and replaced with a new power.
Photon Seekers:
We have a whole long thread of discussion and ideas for improvement. Here is what I Don't want:
If summoned Out of combat, I don't want them lagging and lingering behind me, molesting the furniture, or getting stuck in a rock, until they expire.My favorite concept for Photon Seekers is this:
If summoned in combat, I don't want them all to expend themselves against the same target, so fast that they essentially blast the corpse into individual pixels - like they do now.
In, or out of combat, I do not want them to expire without attacking an enemy at all, unless there are no enemies nearby. I absolutely don't want them to just expire if I should happen to be Fighting Enemies At The Time!
When Summoned, they fly out and swiftly spread in different directions (a bit like a roman candle) and begin orbiting around the player.I do not conceive of these Seekers as a permanent or 'permable' pet power, but they should certainly be available for any large fight, so perhaps a 60-90 second cooldown. (120?)
If Summoned without a target, or if the target is quickly dispatched, then they spend the first part of their existence firing energy blasts at any enemy that attacks the player, and may concentrate (auto-assist) on any enemy that the player is targeting/attacking.
In the last phase of their existence, they kamikaze (about like they do now) on any enemy that attacks the player, or any enemy that the player is targeting/attacking. If the first detonation defeats the enemy, the remaining Seekers will wait, preferably until the player targets another enemy, but if the count-down to expiration enters the final few seconds, they will attack random enemies - Unless there are no enemies remaining.
If summoned with a Durable target selected, they will expend their full time-cycle on that target.
Light Form:
I just don't have enough experience with Peacebringers' 'Fourth Form' to intelligently comment, except in relation to things I've read. As a 'Tier Twelve' power, it really ought to be special!
What I'd really like to see would be a 300-second version of 'Power-Surge' from the Electric Defense set. 120-180 seconds of Glowing Beacon of Doom!, followed by a significant, but not Suicidal crash (along the lines of Strength of Will). The cooldown would be an unmodifiable 300 seconds.Nova and Dwarf Form:
The classic argument between Human-only, Bi-form, Tri-form, and even 'Quad-form' Kheldians has always been twofold, the gameplay complexity of shifting forms, and the terrible Slot-Crunch introduced by trying to build worthwhile Enhancement into the dozen extra powers gained by taking the forms. Kheldians are Forced to specialize.
I'd like to see that eased, just a little. Nova Form and Dwarf Form should each receive a few extra slots, which can only be used within the form.
As for the schedule of such additional slots, I'm not sure.
I once thought that Kheldians should get one extra slot per slot-granting level, but that would be 20-some new slots and that is clearly too many! Possibly not too many for a full-on Tri-plus-form Kheldian to use, but simply too much advantage for one that did Not take all of the forms. A Bi-form could 5-slot every attack, without making any sacrifices!
And yet... That would allow Kheldians to be every bit as epically powerful as a player might want. They'd have to sacrifice Pool powers, but they don't have APPs anyway, so in a way, that would be perfectly reasonable. In fact, one could argue that a Tri-form could/should have even more slots.
The Human-form option would thus become a character-concept and game-play choice, rather than one partly Forced by a lack of slots. Bi-forms could become awesomely powerful and Tri-forms would be less powerful, but much more flexible. It's a beautiful dream...
Except we have HOs and Set-IOs...
Well, actually, HOs aren't really that big a threat (right now) there aren't very many on the market, across all of the servers, and the costs are ridiculous. And the diminishing returns of ED really means that there's a practical cap to how much enhancement one can use and the result is... well, after you have 99% everything, anything more is wasted and there's just no point to it. Of course, with a HORDE of hungry aero-squids to fuel the demand, more people might return to hunting the Hamidon and the Titan and the Hydra... It might not be all bad, but it could lead to problems.
On the other hand, there are Set-IOs... In terms of straight enhancement, those probably wouldn't be as much of a problem as HOs, however, in terms of Set Bonuses... The possibilities inherent in 20-some more slots... They're Awes... I mean Catastrophic! For game balance, anyway.
Who needs a Tanker, when you can have a maxed-out Dwarf, who can turn himself into the ultimate flying aero-squid of DOOM! And still not suck too badly in Human form? Yeah, this would become 'City of Tentacles'.
So, 20 slots is out. However, one extra slot per power, in each individual form, would definitely make things easier for Kheldians to make a better life for themselves.
TL;DR version of this wall of text:
Hey, guys, don't fight over the KB - it's just a difference of perspective and KB isn't worth it! Instead, let's harness our creativity to find ways to make the power achieve all of our ends.
In addition to the power changes I've suggested, I'd like to see Kheldian's overall damage adjusted, so they can be comfortable solo and on small teams, without being completely overpowered on a larger team.
The 'problem' with Kheldians is that they are an 'epic' AT, when we who have put in the work to unlock them (at L50, no less) would like them to be an Epic AT. Not just tied to an epic backstory, with contacts and content that nobody can access without us, and special enemies that make adventuring with us more exciting. (Not to mention the Kheldian 'taint', which still hasn't been corrected.) But More!
I want our epic AT to be Epic, with more exciting gameplay, more options and flexibility, and yes, just a little more Power than all of the other ATs I've played. I'm willing to put up with gameplay complexity and the chore of managing powers between the forms, in order to get that.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Quote:
You offered a situation where YOU would have been better off with KD. That you don't agree, is regrettable, but doesn't change the situation.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Strange, I seem to have done so. You just don't care to admit that, hey, maybe I'm right for *me.*
|
Quote:
| No, what's getting offensive is the "No, you're wrong no matter how much you actually do use it because *I,* EvilGeko, don't find it useful." That I'm somehow *lying* for some odd reason about finding it useful and being able to use it ina beneficial manner, basically. Even though you've never teamed with me, you can tell me that I've obviously never had situations that, yes, KB - even AOE KB - was better than just KD. |
Quote:
| You want to say *you* don't find it useful and leave it there? Fine. That's your opinion. But don't go around telling me that *I* don't, and there's no way that *I* (or anyone else) actually could. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
I don't enjoy fighting with many people on these boards, but Memphis Bill is one of them. Without doubt. He basically has a perspective on the game which is so alien to me, that it's absolutely fascinating to read his posts. I think he's a great poster, reasonable, intelligent, respectful. But he says these stark-raving mad things. Mostly regarding Kheldians and SoA. We don't really disagree much outside of that. Go figure. |
Originally Posted by Fireheart
TL;DR version of this wall of text: Hey, guys, don't fight over the KB - it's just a difference of perspective and KB isn't worth it! Instead, let's harness our creativity to find ways to make the power achieve all of our ends. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, it doesn't. I don't find it unhelpful, the teams I'm on with my PBs (and anything else causing AOE KB) don't find it unhelpful - so, no. I find it useful, you refuse to believe it with almost religious fervor, so really - no point in continuing the argument.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
There you go with the "always." That's your opinion, period. Quit trying to put it out as fact.
|
I despise PBs who frequently use Solar Flare to scatter everything, an emotion that physically roils deep within my heart. They knock mobs away from my Fulcrum Shift, my Darkest Night anchors, my Heat Loss, my rains, my Stone tank in general. They do it knowing, full well, that they're actively trying to kill their own team mates by blowing my Transfusion target into the next zip code.
I've also got a stormy, and a bubbler coming out of retirement thanks to upcoming changes. I know there's an excellent time and place for KB, but I don't jump into the middle of spawns and activate Hurricane or Repulsion Field, and that's more than I can ever say about Solar Flare.
Solar Flare changed to KD
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.