Let's Discuss: Comprehensive PB Proposal

Heh, 'madness' from another perspective may be 'inspired'. Even if it's Not Sparta.

And you've Both been saying 'That's Nuts' and 'Are you Stupid?' when, what you Really mean is, "That wouldn't work with my playstyle," or, "I wouldn't do it that way."

*shrug* Different strokes.

Beyond the rhetoric, the discussion between you two is enlightening. You are both clear about what you want Solar Flare to do, mechanically, and you only disagree about how it should do it. It seems to me, that's true about every discussion about the pros and cons of any form of mitigation.

People dislike KB when they're trying to get close to the enemy and do bad things to his face. They also dislike KB when they're trying to sweep up a big pile of enemy, so they can drop an AoE bomb on them.

Other people Like KB, because it helps keep the enemy from getting too close and doing bad things to their face. It helps them control the pace of battle and leverage their ranged attacks.

Some people who like KB, knowing that other people Don't like KB, work very hard to Master it. They learn through enormous trial and error, how to make the KB do their bidding. They are justly proud of their skill and the time they invested in gaining it.

Many people who dislike KB learn to live with it, but they still don't like it. Some just throw screaming hissy fits and boot anybody with KB from their teams - Check the Rude Tells thread for examples.

I kinda fall between these positions, since I like a lot of sets with KB, but I also play a lot of melee-toons and Hate when KB forces me to chase down my enemy - AGAIN - so I can punch him in the face... Except when it's MY KB and I just triumphantly Crane Kicked that goon off a Building! (WOOT!) Well, unless he Doesn't Die as a result and then I'm grumbling bad words as I have to chase him down again. So, I do make an effort to control my KB, but I'm not an expert and sometimes it just seems like too much work.

The point I wanted to make, here, is that, by trying to take away KB, one devalues the time, effort and Skill of a person who truly has mastered KB - and that's a threat to their pride in that skill. It's upsetting.

So perhaps it's wise to be a little gentler about stamping out some awfulness that others seem to value. Try to see the matter from their side, discover what they 'need' from that awfulness, and then think about how everyone might be satisfied.

Be Well!
Fireheart
a Peacebringer

Solo Benefit to Cosmic balance. I think you could achieve something interesting with it if cosmic balance used foes as well as allies to buff the PB/WS. Depending on what the target cap was, you could do something like 1% Res/Def per minion, 3 points status protection per LT, 10% Damage per boss. Numbers would be more placeholders based on what would be balanced. Target caps put into place, etc etc. Lower the benefits from team cosmic balance, shift some of their benefits to teammates. Where as VEAT's provide Defense/To Hit/ Damage, I think PB's could provide something like +Res + Minor Regen/Recovery + Status Resistance (Not protection). WS's something like +Res +Def/Stealth + Debuff resistance. (DDR, -end -recovery -to hit - recharge, etc)

Like VEAT's bring defense for everyone (Sometimes lots) and some -Res Debuffs along with their own personal Defenses/Damage with this change Khelds would be someone I'd want on any team, but not focused enough where you'd pass up a Tank/Scrap/Defender, etc.

Solar Flare Human form. KB to KD/KU.

Photon Seekers, in my world I'd make them clones of Dark Extraction (in the sense that they follow you around and used light based attacks). Adjust the numbers so the damage for three of them was closer to the damage from two dark extractions.

Another option I like is the "Hell on Earth" clone mentioned earlier. Have the PB summon small photon seekers for 90 seconds, that do less damage as they are now, but act in the same way. Give it the 300/90 uptime ratio, warshades can have up to 3 damage machines perma, PB's should have a way to keep up with that.

Lightform - Cross Shadowmeld with Moment of Glory. (Much Lower defense/Resist values of MoG) Give it something like 120/25 120/30 up time. To compare, with SO slotting of eclipse in human form it takes between 3 and 5 foes to hard cap res to all (Depending on shields) and has 150/90 uptime with only SO's no hasten.

BU replaced by watered down rage clone. 60% Damage maybe? Much more form friendly, makes human form that much better.

As someone said earlier, give human blasts for PB's and WS's the Dominator treatment.

As an aside, I think we can agree Memphis Bill while you might like your PbAoE Knockback you are the vast vast vast minority. It would seem the vocal playerbase would rather have KD/KU. The added benefit is you could have it your way by slotting a Knockback IO/Set into the power.

As it stands, the change from say from mag 4 to mag .9 would make a great many players/teams happy, and costing only a few an extra slot to continue to annoy the hell out of teams/get their knockback.

Fix for pb

-Knock back to knockdown

-Pulsar mag raised to 4

-Qflight reduce end drain

-Raise dmg modifiers

- Seekers reduce recharge change to Targeted AOE (but can hit any enemy in between you and intended target)

- Like psyrene said change light form to more a shadow meld or a MOG.. short durations short recharge.. and give it 75% def to all and 45% resistance duration 20 seconds, take out the crash also keep the animation..

-Instead of group flight Give us a power like fire Embrace.. Potential to raise our light energy dmg..

- Shorten the durations of shifting

-Suppress shields in forms.. instead of detoggling

- Give pb resistance debuff prot and End drain prot

- Mez rez in each shield


WS fix

knock back to knockdown

- Change grav snare to a target aoe

- Change all ws shields to def base, so it stacks well with cloak

- Leave eclipse how it is with resistance so it can be a great layered def with the ws defensive shields.

- Put def debuff resistance, slow debuff resistance in all shields.

- Shorten the durations of shifting

-suppress shields in forms.. instead of detoggling

-Give Orbital Death slows.

-Raise all the mags of the WS mez powers.

- Mez rez in each shield

* Raise human form damage scale from .85 melee/.80 range to 1.0 melee/range (numbers from paragon wiki) to be in balance with VEATs.

* Change KB to KD.

* Reduce shape shifting times.

* Revamp Photon Seekers - I rather see one summonable photon seeker that attacks. It will look like a smaller version of light form with range attacks.

* Add mez and KB protection to inherent.

* Change KB to KU.

* Automatic shield retoggle when switching between forms.

Ok, I think the KB to KD argument has gone on long enough. For the time being let's back burner it in favor of less contemptuous issues. When the rest is worked out we can return to the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_Soto * Raise human form damage scale from .85 melee/.80 range to 1.0 melee/range (numbers from paragon wiki) to be in balance with VEATs.

I'm not gonna argue with getting more damage but I do have a concern with raising the numbers that high.

...Cosmic Balance

Giving PBs a base 1.00 modifier would be great if they didn't have to be balanced around the inherent. It has the potential to make our damage much higher than that of damage specialists like Scrappers and Blasters. VEATs can force multiply in a somewhat similar fashion but they're more limited by having to take and constantly run Tactical Training: Assault. I'd recommend a smaller boost to make sure PBs don't end up edging out other, more specialized, ATs.

I'm reluctant to step into this fracas, but it never stopped me before so...

I like a lot of the ideas here, and I hope the Devs will give them consideration.
I'm especially in favor of a boost for soloists, clicky buffs being able to be used in
forms, and pretty much anything that would improve the "Village Idiots" (Seekers)
for PB's.

Adjusting form transitions would be very welcome, and if we could reduce recharge
times for White Dwarf somewhat, I might even become giddy.

I'd love to see them rethink Quantum Flight. I haven't taken it on a PB since
they changed it way back when (I6?), but that's probably a pipedream.

As far as the Bill / Geko debate, I'm in partial agreement with both sides.

Like Bill, I'm vehemently opposed to changing/losing KB across the board. No, Heck No.

However, for Solar Flare, I'm completely in Geko's (and others) camp - KD/KU
is a much better choice for a host of reasons: Melee focus in human form,
thematic equivalence to FootStomp, and simple team dynamics to name just 3.

To Bill, I'd ask you to compromise a little. You listed *one* scenario that
works for *you* - but there are many other cases where KD is distinctly better
than KB, particularly in a team setting, and KD would certainly be much more
palatable for the majority of the playerbase in those cases.

That said, I wouldn't want to eliminate the option for you, but I think scrounging a
slot or two to have an effect you deem vital is a reasonable exchange. <shrug>.

Anyway, interesting thread - I'd love to see the Devs put some thought and effort
into Khelds - they're overdue for it, comparatively speaking, in today's game.


Regards,
4

I posted this in another thread just recently, and it is applicable here too. It is a little heavy on changes though, so take it as you will.

1) Make Kheldians more similar to Soldiers of Arachnos. When you create a kheldian, have them go from level 1 to level 24 in "human form," like you would a VEAT. Then, at level 24, you have the option to branch off, and continue a "human only" build, a "nova" build, or a "lobster" build. The branching would make the Nova and Lobster forms mutually exclusive; however, to compensate for this, damage/mez mitigation would be reworked. Instead of being limited to only a couple powers while in these forms, while having the Nova form active, it would be a cosmetic, as well as "toggleable buildup" of sorts (think of a buffed up Assault), while also buffing team-mates within a certain proximity to it. Thus, while in this form, all previously "human" powers would be used instead of "Nova" attacks, but would have Nova scales of damage applied. Additionally, later on in this branch, more ranged AoE or ST attacks would be attainable (think fortunata). This branch would possibly work similarly to a blaster's inherent, except that additionally, for every enemy defeated, stackable mez protection is added for a specified period of time. This branch would be light on control, but heavy on damage.

On the other side of the coin, in lobster form would be a toggleable armor, like (i think) Granite (think teir 9 Stone Tanker). Similarly to Nova, the character would have all attack powers availible to use while this is active, and while active, increases the damage resistance of allies by a certain amount (think of Maneuvers, except resistance based). Later in the branch, more melee attacks would become availible including several PBAoEs. This form, while active, would also gain aggro similar to that of a Tanker or possibly, buff damage like a Brute. This branch would be heavy on Melee and AoE's that would quickly gather aggro, and would naturally provide mez protection as a part of the form.

The human PEACEBRINGER form would be focused primarily upon providing control to its teammates. While damage would not be spectacular, nor would its damage mitigation, this form would be the only one by which an Epic or Patron powerset could be taken. Also, more potent forms of the Ancillary Leadership pool, and would come with a +regen +recovery AoE power. Additionally, the closer proximity to a Peacebringer a character was, the more potent their mez resistance would become. Think of this Branch as a "radiation controller without the debuffs" type of character.

The human WARSHADE form would also be concerned with providing control to its teammates, but whearas Peacebringers brought buffs or other "additive" effects, Warshades would bring Debuffs or "subtractive" buffs to a team, and would also have the ability to take Epic or Patron pools. Beefed up, slightly differing Leadership powers would also be availible, and an arua that defended against mez would become more potent the closer one was the the Warshade. Think of the Warshade as a "dark defender with darkish controls."

*****OR*****

2) Simply make both forms unslottable, like Ninja Run. Additionally, buff them up because of the loss of their slots. Making all their powers come out of the box with 6 slots could also be a good workaround.