Incarnate rewards based on participation?
By
Abraxxus,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 11:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
If clicks are measured, do you know how much less active you would be considered than a Controller, Blaster or Dominator (The three ATs that I have seen consistently out-pacing other ATs)? It's not even close having TG on auto fire...|
Originally Posted by starphoenix
Must be based on clicking powers instead of putting a power on autofire if this is true. I continually spam Twilight Grasp and haven't noticed any difference from the constant commons I get. If the rewards are weighted based on participation, then it is unfair to certain players that are just as active, but don't have the same powers. I have absolutely no attacks on my MM and the only things I can use are twilight grasp, 2 holds, fearsome stare, Howling Twilight...
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One thing that's also interesting is that the melee classes that are doing the best happen to be Regen. Hmmm, click heavy...
Cant be based on clicks, imho. I've run so many trials (20+) on my nrg/nrg blaster and 90% of the time I get uncommons. This is with constantly pouring out the damage.
Sorry for the short post, Im heading out to work. Peace.
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Put this to a tiny test last night. Ran 3 BaFs in a row on my Fire/Dev blaster. Was on the "Adds" team on each of them.
2 rares in row when I would run around the corner and drop AOEs on the AVs to up my "contribution."It's no wonder in all the Trials I've run I've only ever got the common table, maybe twice. I'm a click-a-holic and I can DoT all over the place.
1 uncommon on the run I didn't.
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Successful Master of Lambda run last night, completed with about 1.5 minutes to spare: I got a Very Rare component--and I was the +3 psi dominator meleeing Marauder to death. So I definitely did a massive load of damage, but I don't think I activated a too-unusually high number of powers (over time, that is; it was a longer trial than usual), and I've only gotten 2 other Very Rares in my probably 40+ trial runs.
If what everyone else has said here is true, it sounds like it is indeed based on powers activated.
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And on the exact same trial I got an uncommon. I was buffing you, spaming heals to everyone as much as I could, having my Illusion pets out as much as possible, and was on the same team as you.|
Originally Posted by DeProgrammer
Successful Master of Lambda run last night, completed with about 1.5 minutes to spare: I got a Very Rare component--and I was the +3 psi dominator meleeing Marauder to death. So I definitely did a massive load of damage, but I don't think I activated a too-unusually high number of powers (over time, that is; it was a longer trial than usual), and I've only gotten 2 other Very Rares in my probably 40+ trial runs.
If what everyone else has said here is true, it sounds like it is indeed based on powers activated. |
The developers need to explain exactly how the reward tables are working. I'm tired of being treated like I'm "not doing enough" by the game.
Edit:
And if it is tied to how much my powers affects the AV, when the AV is pretty much immune to controls, I'll be extremely ticked.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
Technically speaking, your holds "affect" the AV whether they are actually mezzed by you or not as far as the game engine is concerned, because you have incremented their mez attribute. My guess is that the devs probably haven't added a monitor to check to see if you actually mezzed the target, because that would be complicated (if I hit a boss with a hold and then you do, do you get credit for the mez and I get none - that sort of question is the kind of question I would not want to delve into if I were the devs).|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And if it is tied to how much my powers affects the AV, when the AV is pretty much immune to controls, I'll be extremely ticked.
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On the other hand, I will say that sometimes the devs take an expedient path that they feel is "good enough" even if it has significant problematic corner cases, that I wouldn't take. So I cannot really say what is the most likely algorithm for the participation algorithm if it exists (I assume it does, but I cannot prove with 100% certainty that it does).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Technically speaking, your holds "affect" the AV whether they are actually mezzed by you or not as far as the game engine is concerned, because you have incremented their mez attribute. My guess is that the devs probably haven't added a monitor to check to see if you actually mezzed the target, because that would be complicated (if I hit a boss with a hold and then you do, do you get credit for the mez and I get none - that sort of question is the kind of question I would not want to delve into if I were the devs).
On the other hand, I will say that sometimes the devs take an expedient path that they feel is "good enough" even if it has significant problematic corner cases, that I wouldn't take. So I cannot really say what is the most likely algorithm for the participation algorithm if it exists (I assume it does, but I cannot prove with 100% certainty that it does). |
This is why I propose the aggro mechanics may be partially involved, although possibly indirectly. We know that mobs keep an "aggro list" of things that they might consider attacking if their current target dies. We also know that many powers have a "bonus" to threat that essentially converts the "value" of the non-damage component of a power into a chance for the enemy to come after you. If we look at how those mechanics work against the pattern we're seeing:
- Controllers and Dominators are ending up with high values on lots of enemy's lists because they 1) tend to hit enemies who are going to die anyway 2) hit a lot of them, 3) hit even the enemies the rest of the team is likely to ignore trying to kill 4) have an increased threat rating on their powers in general (or so we guess, since no player to my knowledge has seen the values).
- Masterminds are ending up on very few lists, because if your pet hits an enemy, you generate only a very modest threat rating (enough to pull the enemy if the pet dies and no one else engaged them)
So here is the possibility: there is a variable on the character that increases by the amount of threat you generate outside of Taunts. I don't think that's all that's being looked at, but it's one of the very few measurements of relative power we have.
The other significant possibility is total endurance spent prior to endurance reduction and modifications. Maybe specifically total base endurance spent on powers that do not only affect self and also took effect (e.g. no stacking on your own existing Force Field). The reason I look toward this number again is that endurance is one of the very few ways I can think of to convert a power back to a standard gauge of usefulness. And again, as I understand it typical Masterminds tend not to expend as much base endurance. The reason I rate threat as more likely than endurance use, though, is my suspicion that the Praetorian event code is being partially reused.
I think in the end the developers are going to have to come out and tell us what is being weighted. In all likelihood, we have less of a formula than we do a "method." So it could be you get a certain reward for contributions unless a b or c happens, and maybe d mitigates part of a low score.
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With all due respect, you can't conclude ANYTHING from 3 runs. That is not a statistically valid sample - by orders of magnitude.
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Originally Posted by BackFire
Put this to a tiny test last night. Ran 3 BaFs in a row on my Fire/Dev blaster.
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Just thought of one other way to "rate" a power: the AE version that gives point values to certain powers. I'm not sure if all sets even show up there, but it would be one way to know guess about how much value each power is doing.
I also wouldn't be surprised to learn using the same buff power twice back to back doesn't increase your total, but that's merely a guess.
Just got 10 threads for the first time. On a scrapper, to boot.
I think things are just dying too quickly now in the trials. Wife got 10 threads on her 3rd trial ever. That isn't helping me try to get her to play.
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Oh, hello there randomness and unpredictability.
Last night, I was trapping and masterminding the hell out of a Lambda, and got the 10 Threads/One Super insp option.
Tonight, Same character (Bots/Traps MM) and I got nothing lower than uncommon on three BAF's. Run 1 - Uncommon (Cytolitic Infusion) Run 2 - Rare (Semi-Conscious Energy) Run 3 - Rare (Exotic Isotope).
Now, this comes after a patch, but there was no mention of any adjustments to reward tables in the patch notes.
On all three BAF's I ended up on the Ambush team, dealing with 9CU's and Victorias while other teams dealt with the AV's. I was still trapping like a mad thing while my pets were shooting until their little laser emitters ached, but I can't really think of anything I did differently to the Lambda where I got the 'you suck' reward options.
This whole thing is going to need either dev confirmation of how things work, a massive (somehow) controlled sample size or some inspired guesswork to figure out...
...Either that or it's all massively random when you're a MM.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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Excellent - Masterminds ID'd as an issue and changes made to compensate. Job done.
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Originally Posted by Sermon
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No, the job isn't done until an unfair system is removed. The participation-based rewards is a complete farce.
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Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo
Excellent - Masterminds ID'd as an issue and changes made to compensate. Job done.
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This system isn't as bad of a fail as PvP2.0 is, but still it's pretty dang bad. If they don't make it totally random I'm going to be pretty pissed, I've been working my butt off for Very Rares and Rares and am getting diddly 40-50 trials in....|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
No, the job isn't done until an unfair system is removed. The participation-based rewards is a complete farce.
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No matter what they do to make it "participation based" it will never be fair because there are too many variables. With random drops you only have leechers as a variable as getting drops when they shouldn't. I guess that's what the kick button was made for. The Devs have definitely overcomplicated this issue and it's killing me.
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Same here. May AoE elemental based characters are swimming in Rares relative to the number of trials done. But my single target lethal damage scrapper with multiple team buffing powers and debuff procs gets nada 50 some trials in. And with her, I've taken the time to organize and lead at least ten successful trials--a boon to my playmates on Triumph as any successful lead can be. Happy to do it. But to have a borked reward system that seems to keep those rares and or very rares out of her reach? Blech.|
Originally Posted by Cold_X
This system isn't as bad of a fail as PvP2.0 is, but still it's pretty dang bad. If they don't make it totally random I'm going to be pretty pissed, I've been working my butt off for Very Rares and Rares and am getting diddly 40-50 trials in....
No matter what they do to make it "participation based" it will never be fair because there are too many variables. With random drops you only have leechers as a variable as getting drops when they shouldn't. I guess that's what the kick button was made for. The Devs have definitely overcomplicated this issue and it's killing me. |
Plus, with all that playtime, I've not gotten a single purple drop since i20 launched.
So ...
I ran a three BAFs this afternoon, after the patch, on my Traps / Dark defender.
First run, I used my primary as little as possible without being a total jerk (FFG and leadership always on, full traps on the doors, did not debuff AVs) and spent my time punching AVs in the face. Common.
Second run, a more balanced approach of blasting and Trapping: Very Rare (only my second on the Trapper, and I've done enough raids to have T3 in all 4 new slots despite crappy drops and having to burn 100 threads for 1 piece of salvage twice).
Third run, same as the second with a side of me leading and, minimally, barking commands (setting the ground rules of pulling AVs, 3 to a door, don't bogart adds) and throwing out some hints to the newbies (target the AVs through health bars in UI): Rare.
Maybe the devs slipped something into the patch.
Or the RNG smiled on me.
I dunno which.
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No reward system based on participation is EVER going to be fair unless they have weighting tables for every single build possible in the game.
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Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo
Excellent - Masterminds ID'd as an issue and changes made to compensate. Job done.
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Color me confused as I just got 3 rares in a row on the MA scrapper with no Incarnate abilities, other than the Rare Alpha.
I'm continuing to get Commons with my Emp/Rad Defender. I'm blasting(and using judgement as soon as it's up), buffing, healing, etc. I can't remember when I just stood around and did nothing.
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It's still random. That's the problem with most of the testing ITT, you can be way down on the "participation scale" and still get a very rare, theoretically. Or way up and still get a common. So when someone says "I ran 2 BAFs and got 2 very rares and this what I did" it doesn't mean what he did -works-... but it might.|
Originally Posted by Jetpack
Color me confused as I just got 3 rares in a row on the MA scrapper with no Incarnate abilities, other than the Rare Alpha.
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Personally, I wish the system was basically this:
No power activations (disregard powers set to auto): no reward
Very few (I don't know what the right number would be here, but something pretty low while high enough to prevent people from loading in, helping with 2 mobs and afk'ing) - very low chance of "good" rewards
Any number of power activations over "very few" - standard randomized reward (very rares being, I don't know 5% chance?)
I think once it gets more complicated than that, it becomes unfair fast. I'm all for keeping people from afk'ing and door-sitting alts. I'm completely against methods that encourage a-hole team leaders to put themselves on a team 3 to fight ambushes on the BAF by themselves while everyone else must fight AVs because he thinks/realizes he has better chances of good drops that way... AND WHAT ABOUT THE MASTER MINDS, WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE MASTER MINDS?
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Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Same here. May AoE elemental based characters are swimming in Rares relative to the number of trials done. But my single target lethal damage scrapper with multiple team buffing powers and debuff procs gets nada 50 some trials in. And with her, I've taken the time to organize and lead at least ten successful trials--a boon to my playmates on Triumph as any successful lead can be. Happy to do it. But to have a borked reward system that seems to keep those rares and or very rares out of her reach? Blech.
Plus, with all that playtime, I've not gotten a single purple drop since i20 launched. |
This seems to be the case with me as well. My AoE Corruptor has gotten many rare and 1 very rare drop. By way of comparison, my single target Scrapper has gotten only one rare and almost all common or uncommon drops with nearly 2x the number of runs.
It seems once again, AoE is the way to go.
In most Lambda runs right now Im getting 4 Astral Merits and many threads bonded and I think an Empyrian. I ran it four times in a row and got these. Are these the rares that you are talking about?
Curiosity question: has anyone tracked their reward tables on a Tanker? Because how Tanker participation is tracked would probably have some bearing on how Brute and Scrapper participation is tracked also.
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Having said that, and as indicated in the linked posts above, my Fire/Rad's random table has gotten "better" since slotting my various T3s, esp Judgment & Interface.
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