Multi-group content is not the way.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-06 22:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well, given the number of trials I have run, expecting 10 threads per trial is just silly given how high the current failure rate is for LFG PUGs. I get an average of 4 - 5 threads per attempt. If you do not succeed in the trial you rarely get a incarnate salvage drop.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
So that's 3 days vs. 15 days if you're playing in what I define as a "casual" manner.
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Having the salvage rewards be random is a mistake. Hiding advancement behind randomness will also &*(& someone.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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-g=C800:5
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That's what Astral Merits are for.
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Originally Posted by Sir_Zane
Well, given the number of trials I have run, expecting 10 threads per trial is just silly given how high the current failure rate is for LFG PUGs. I get an average of 4 - 5 threads per attempt. If you do not succeed in the trial you rarely get a incarnate salvage drop.
Having the salvage rewards be random is a mistake. Hiding advancement behind randomness will also &*(& someone. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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Astral merits will have another future use, but that hasn't be disclosed exactly what yet....
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
That's what Astral Merits are for.
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
It's not rage. I used up all my rage in the post-I20 announcement forum wars. As I said in the first part of my post, the pro-solo/small team argument is a lost cause, for now, so long as the new shiny remains new and shiny.
So call it a /mehquit. There's nothing in this issue that interests me, and seeing every new art asset, map, enemy group, mechanic and power being poured into TFs and Raids really does take the shine of the existing game that I do normally enjoy. The likelihood is that I21, at least, will be more of the same, because they need to get more trials out there before everyone starts complaining that they have nothing to do with their 50+ characters. The devs can barely support CoV in addition to CoH (hence the increasingly boring emphasis on co-op content that has spilled over into the Trials) so how do they expect to feed the need for Incarnate content in addition to that? Put it a different way. Someone in the beta forums (I forget who) summarised the current direction of the game as "We're sorry you don't like large team content, because we really want you to like large team content." For the first time I'm really wondering what the game will look like in a year's time, and whether or not it's still going to be a game I want to spend time on. And if I21 won't be 'all team/trial all the time' then why is that all we're hearing about? Answer: becaue they really really want us to like large team content. Add in I22 (not an unreasonable possibility) and you're looking at 2012 before they've got this established, never mind whatever comes next. It's not about me wanting the powers but not wanting to grind for them. I have 2 50s, both naturals. Neither of them really want to be throwing giant AoEs of godly death around, or have a Praetorian ghost/spirit/whateverthehellitis following them around. It's more about a shift in the culture of the game, which I think we're already seeing, with all the forum trash talk about people not wanting to 'work' for their rewards. Nah, not for me. If I wanted to run the same stuff over and over again for epic loot I'd be playing the 800lb gorilla, not City of Heroes. |
Thank you, this is exactly how I feel.
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That's what they're for right now.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Astral merits will have another future use, but that hasn't be disclosed exactly what yet....
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"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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You're making the choice that it's not a realistic option, not the Devs. You control that choice, not the Devs. It's your choice what you do with your time, and how you spend your money, but dont blame leaving because of something the Devs did. |
Originally Posted by Chyll
bah. No. not for me.
Time and difficulty are fine. Give me a challenge, a variety of them. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over trapdoor never came from me. I love the idea of having an individual challenge as much or more as the giant "its war" trials. It is options, flexibility, variety that is at the crux of my complaint. Look at Alpha, it allowed you to unlock and progress solo, teamed, and on how many task forces at first? And the WST was a great idea that used the wealth of content in the game to support the new advance... This new layer? It funnels down to one path. One realistic option. |
You can earn the slots solo, you can earn them flashing back to hollows missions, you can earn them street sweeping in the shadow shard, you can earn them doorsitting while someone runs the demon farm.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
So speed is partially a factor? I'm a little confused.
As I said above it would be fairly easy to get a common slotted in 10 days (once you have the slot unlocked, and I don't know how long that would take, except I think it takes about 30 threads to unlock enough iXP to get the Judgement slot, so another 5 days?). How much shorter would be the ideal time, considering that if you do a BAF a day I think it'll take 3 days to unlock the judgement slot (and by that time you'll have enough to slot a common and probably a quite a bit more). So that's 3 days vs. 15 days if you're playing in what I define as a "casual" manner. Not to mention that there's a thread reward at the end of both Apex and Tin Mage II (not a lot, but it'll speed up your time anyway). |
I'd say that a BAF a day is a middle ground player, not a casual player. A true casual players is probably a BAF a week or month. So that stretches a lot longer. But, no, I'm not hung up on the speed, Yes, I think it is slower because it is not a real option assuming no trial play (for whatever reason). I'm hung up on the flavor of the game play...
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Positron hinted that there would be other uses for them...
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
That's what they're for right now.
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He didn't hint, he flat out said it. But RIGHT NOW you can use them as an extra source for threads.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Positron hinted that there would be other uses for them...
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
No, havent read the whole 13 pages of responses, but wanted to personally say that after running a couple of BAF's (a couple of wins a couple of loses) that I feel I20 overall with its league feature is a great upgrade. Devs just need to make sure there are more and more of these type of TFs in the future issues, and maybe even at lower levels.
Virtue Server Forever !
Pure White Lightning - Level 50 Electric Brute
Purple Drop - work in progress Axe/Shield brute
Blue Icefall - Level 50 Ice Tank
@Blue Lava
I think the packaging of the multi-group content is the problem. I liked the previous version where everyone was on an individual team and thrown into a large open encounter. They could have handled Turnstile and the League thing in a very similar way. However, the current league thing is a pretty much nonsense and in any Trial I have done has not added anything to the experience, just detracted from it.
I am not really seeing that much in the way of new and different in these Trials. I am not sure what Trials some players have been playing that are needing some level of intricate strategy.
The BAF is a hunt, followed by and AV fight, followed by a timed kill all (with a 20 count leeway for failure), followed by two AV fights. Except for the timed kill all (of escapee phase if you must), the rest is really button mashing cut and paste from most any other AV fight.
Lambda is a hunt, followed by a series of EB fights, followed by a timed search and destroy, followed by an AV fight. Between the two, Lambda is the harder one, as it is more easily failed by a LFG PUG. It is however, completely doable with just 8.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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-g=C800:5
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Well Diabolique and Dominatrix are still in their old outfits and in desperate need of boob jobs.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Art/animation definitely is tied up with Issue 21 for Incarnate content. Only hope is that they have something up their sleeve that says otherwise.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I'm amused at anything or anyone that assumes you can log on every day for any amount of time and still count as casual.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
I'd say that a BAF a day is a middle ground player, not a casual player. A true casual players is probably a BAF a week or month. So that stretches a lot longer.
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"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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Shards drop from nearly everything after you start on incarnates, and everything can be gained from shards, maybe slowly, but as with EVERYTHING with the game, progress happens slower than when in a group, thats the trade off.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
As some have said, where is the solo-friendly option? Y'know, the two trials seem cool and all, but some of us don't want to do those things ALL the time.
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There is still EVERYTHING that was in the 6+ years of development in the game before issue 20. Issue 18 you got LOTS of missions that are solo-able, if you got Going Rogue, which if you don't, you can't get shards anyways.
Nothing in this game (or i'd imagine any MMO) has ever come faster from solo-only progress than it would from being in a group. That is the nature of this game as is all MMOs, and sort of the purpose of making a game a MMO. How are so many people surprised and crying foul that there isn't a way that's as fast as running trials amazes me.
The trials themselves, I wish there were more, and they intend on more coming soon. Be patient. Good things take time to do. But the ones we have aren't bad. Very dynamic and involve more strategy than anything else in the game. They go quick, and you get your rewards quick. With only a couple hours of playing in one night after work, I was well on my way to judgement. Was able to run several (some winning, some losing). You don't need to build a group first to use the LFG TUT, but you can, and sometimes it helps to guarantee a good teem, but its not necessary.
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Button Mashing will not get you through the BAF. It does take teamwork. You have to pay attention. Those two AVs need to be defeated within 10 seconds of each other, and you won't pull that off if the players aren't watching the AV's health meters closely and listening to the league leader's directions. Not to mention the AVs' backup needs to be constantly cut down, for if they get to high in number, their stacking defiance will build up to insane levels and wipe the whole league.|
Originally Posted by Sir_Zane
The BAF is a hunt, followed by and AV fight, followed by a timed kill all (with a 20 count leeway for failure), followed by two AV fights. Except for the timed kill all (of escapee phase if you must), the rest is really button mashing cut and paste from most any other AV fight.
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Not to mention the never-miss heavy damage tower turrets that you either need to have Stalkers continually deactivate or have the AVs pulled to the tennis courts.
This is easiest with three teams. One on Siege, one on Nightstar, and the third cleaning up the adds.
There's too much fail to quote.
- People don't pay for the past content of MMOs. They pay for future development. Ask yourself how long you would stay subscribed if tomorrow NCsoft announced there would be no future development or expansion of City, that support was now bug-fixes/maint only. My guess is that the vast majority of players would be reaching for the cancel button in seconds. If the indications are that your MMO is developing in a way that you're not going to enjoy, it's time for you to go.
- If the raiding path to character advancement takes time X which is deemed acceptable, then a solo path that takes 2X is generous, 5X is tolerable, and 10X is, to borrow a phrase, "a slap in the face". The alternate path to Incarnate abilities past Alpha is about 1,000X which moves past "a slap in the face" and straight to, say, "annexed the Sudetenland". The current "solo option" does nothing more than satisfy a bullet point and is in no way, shape or form a valid retort to those who don't want to raid. Those using it as such are being disingenuous at best.
- It has been said "if you could get the rewards solo there would be no reason to do the trials other than fun". That is true and it's the way it should be. If the trials aren't fun and are only being run because people want the shineys then they're a failure.
- People watch television every night and no one bats an eye at that. People who play an MMO every night can still be casual players. It's more a question of how many hours every night and how they approach the game that determines how casual they are.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Maybe Dominatrix's boyfriend could buy her a pair of fakies when she turns 18?
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Well Diabolique and Dominatrix are still in their old outfits and in desperate need of boob jobs.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It takes an amount of teamwork that could be achieved by any group of people with a mean IQ above room temperature. Yes, the trials require more attention than most of the rest of the game but they don't require the strategic acumen of Sun-Tzu either. As tactical problems go, they're really not that interesting.
| Button Mashing will not get you through the BAF. It does take teamwork. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Originally Posted by Venture
There's too much fail to quote.
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Which is why I cut the rest out.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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There's too much fail here for me to respond to fully.|
Originally Posted by Venture
There's too much fail to quote.
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So instead, let's get right to this:
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Originally Posted by Venture
[*]If the raiding path to character advancement takes time X which is deemed acceptable, then a solo path that takes 2X is generous, 5X is tolerable, and 10X is, to borrow a phrase, "a slap in the face". The alternate path to Incarnate abilities past Alpha is about 1,000X which moves past "a slap in the face" and straight to, say, "annexed the Sudetenland". The current "solo option" does nothing more than satisfy a bullet point and is in no way, shape or form a valid retort to those who don't want to raid. Those using it as such are being disingenuous at best.
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Oh wait, you're not reasonable? That's right....
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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Well they're currently failing as the only viable way to advance as an Incarnate is by these group heavy trials. Where are the solo-friendly small team arcs? As it stands, if I want the big powers at any coherent rate, I have to repeat a pair of trials over and over.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yes, you're right.
They MUST give every possible preferred playstyle something new to do with every single conceivable issue or they fail as a dev team. This issue was focused around large group content. Find me an issue that catered to every possible subset of players all at once. I can't think of a single one that didn't leave someone out in the cold. |
Now I will admit, the trials seem well designed and are fun, but even eating pizza every day gets tiresome. Currently, the solo salvage route for Incarnate XP is slow and clunky and there needs to be a better way to do it. If Zwillinger is going to talk about options, there needs to be actual options available.
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Five times as long FOR WHOM?|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
For the most part getting a common Judgement is about 5 times as long. So by your classification it's reasonable.
Oh wait, you're not reasonable? That's right.... |
30 threads to unlock.
60 threads to craft.
Unless you want to be horribly inefficient with your shards that's 9 days minimum. This is assuming you can earn 10 shards a day....now I have several characters who can play on x8, but in order to earn 10 shards a day on any of them I would have to play in a way that I can only call farming (using the definition of farming: running something over and over to maximize rewards.) or play one character for several hours a day. That's your solo option. How is this "five times as long?" If you can't play on x8 it would take a timeframe I don't even want to think about.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I already explained my reasoning up above. Mostly I was responding to Venture who remains unreasonable, and kind of a jerk about it.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Five times as long FOR WHOM?
30 threads to unlock. 60 threads to craft. Unless you want to be horribly inefficient with your shards that's 9 days minimum. This is assuming you can earn 10 shards a day....now I have several characters who can play on x8, but in order to earn 10 shards a day on any of them I would have to play in a way that I can only call farming (using the definition of farming: running something over and over to maximize rewards.) or play one character for several hours a day. That's your solo option. How is this "five times as long?" If you can't play on x8 it would take a timeframe I don't even want to think about. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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Even if this is true (it isn't), five times as long for one quarter of one of two paths is not "five times as long".
| For the most part getting a common Judgement is about 5 times as long. So by your classification it's reasonable. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
And i can be a patient person in case you were wondering. The reason i've been duo'ing with my friend (aside from enjoying the company) we've been building our own personal bases essentially. Have 6 now...3 on each side.