Multi-group content is not the way.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-06 22:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Okay, you don't want to team. Got it.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
That's not what he said. In fact, MOO just stated he liked Tin Mage/Apex, which are team content. Very few things in this game up until now have required more than 8 people, then in i20 the devs suddenly decided that their most important endgame content should take more than a full team.
He didn't say he didn't want to team. But I don't agree that this is Warcraft style raiding either. Raiding in WoW is hours of sitting around, then killing trash, ready checks, boss fights, and then the possiblity that you might not even get a shiny for the hours you put in. Here you get rewards for participation and the raids only last 30-45 minutes.
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.
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Um... where exactly did he say that? He just said that the non-raiding method of Incarnate progression sucks.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Okay, you don't want to team. Got it.
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Lambda Sector can be started with a normal team of 8 people. As for whether or not it can actually be completed, I haven't tried it very many times or even finished it once, but the only time I came incredibly close to finishing it we had eight.
I disagree. This is not WoW style multi-group content, which it starkly contrasts by pacing, reward structure, and size of raid parties. Issue 20 is the most fun that I have EVER had in CoH, and it feels epic to have to work as a team rather than button mash. And yes, Tin and Apex are still button mashers, with a dash of dodging added against Battle Maiden.
So I agree that Tin and Apex they are some of the finest old style TFs in the game. But these trials are different, and the game needs that variety.
'Teams' top out at around 7-8 folks for me before faces start blending into a crowd. The Five Man Band is PERFECT for having every person stand out yet still be a team. I feel like most CoH teams that don't REQUIRE 8 do best with about 5.
The Fellowship of the Ring was 9 guys. Everyone familiar with the story remembers what they did, especially when they had to break down into smaller groups. Even then, Pippin and Merry don't really get to stand on their own as characters until they split off from Frodo and Sam.
The Sailor Senshi break down into two teams of 5, and are frequently at odds with each other. (Mamo-kun usually solos or trolls for under-age mini-skirt.)
Power Rangers typically come in groups of 5 or less, as do Pretty Cure teams. There are 5 members of Science Ninja Team Gatchaman (G-Force). I'd have to check, but I think there were 6 Go-Lions (Voltron)
Away Parties are usually five or six-man teams. Kirk, McCoy, Spock, two of whichever of the other officers are needed for the plot, and Ensign Rickey Redshirt.
The Millennium Falcon seats 4 comfortably and starts getting REAL CROWDED by the time you crowd a princess and a couple droids into it.
By the time Luke's part of the force of fighters against the deathstar, you don't remember people unless they die horrifically. Everyone remembers Porkins 'Stay on target--- AARGGHGHG'. Luke, R2D2, Han, and Chewbacca don't get to shine again and become the Heroes of Yavin until they're the only guys left.
Okay?
My 10 year old was watching me play tonight. I was in a pug Lamda. He asked why there were so many heroes needed, when all the other stuff was for a single team (I don't do Hami raids cause I am not usually on when they are going). I thought about my answer for a while, and told him, that this isn't your normal Save the World action. This is war. Wars aren't fought with just teams of 8.
Do I agree that it would be nice to have another method of getting incarnate goodies? Yes, that would be nice. Will it happen? It just might. Cause our Devs rock.
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.
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That would be the Alpha Team that consisted of a thousand of the Earths most powerful heroes and the Omega Team that was made up of 50 of the finest magical types?|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Alpha and Omega teams, anyone?
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Minor nitpick aside, I don't mind the new Incarnate Trials being set up for bigger teams. In fact, I quite enjoy the change. If every piece of Incarnate content that comes after is the same, though, then I'll not be so impressed.
However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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This kinda mystifies me when I see it. |
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
No, that's not very super at all.
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Mostly because most people I've seen say something like this mean it along the lines of: I'm not super unless I can crush any opposition to me with no effort at all.
Personally, I find Batman a helluva lot more entertaining than Superman. Batman has challenges to overcome, Superman (unless it's some global threat) has essentially zero chance of being defeated by his opponent, and that's boring.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I agree with the spirit of this post but I have another remark as well. City of Heroes in the past was praised for content using small squads (team).
What has the rest of the industry done since then? They have made raiding into small squads the focus. Why has City of Heroes ignored its roots, and more importantly the industry trend? I honestly don't know...
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You too, huh? I keep reading those and wondering what comics they've been reading. Especially after hearing how its not 'super' to fail at Lambda.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Mostly because most people I've seen say something like this mean it along the lines of: I'm not super unless I can crush any opposition to me with no effort at all.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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I agree, I don't know what the devs are thinking. It's not like in the comics heroes join in these huge groups to combat major threats.|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
No, that's not very super at all.
The difference between the two is requiring multiple groups to succeed at the content. |
Wait what?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Small squad content like Rikti mothership raids, right? The 800 Pound Gorilla of MMORPG's raid content you can still run with 10 or 25 man teams, which is pretty much the size range for BAF and Lambda. And then you have EVE and Rift's free for alls which AFAIK aren't size-limited.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
I agree with the spirit of this post but I have another remark as well. City of Heroes in the past was praised for content using small squads (team).
What has the rest of the industry done since then? They have made raiding into small squads the focus. Why has City of Heroes ignored its roots, and more importantly the industry trend? I honestly don't know... |
And its not like we didn't get a new pair of TFs either. You can do massive raids or still do the small team content, they're both still there. More options are good.
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Um... where exactly did he say that? He just said that the non-raiding method of Incarnate progression sucks.
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Originally Posted by Psycho_Sarah
He didn't say he didn't want to team. But I don't agree that this is Warcraft style raiding either. Raiding in WoW is hours of sitting around, then killing trash, ready checks, boss fights, and then the possiblity that you might not even get a shiny for the hours you put in. Here you get rewards for participation and the raids only last 30-45 minutes.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
That's not what he said. In fact, MOO just stated he liked Tin Mage/Apex, which are team content. Very few things in this game up until now have required more than 8 people, then in i20 the devs suddenly decided that their most important endgame content should take more than a full team.
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Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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We had seven last night (one person quit after dying in the first spawn) and we would have succeeded if we'd had 5 more seconds. Marauder's health bar was so low it looked empty. And this was with a PUG, not a seasoned group that plays together all the time.
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Originally Posted by Kailure
Lambda Sector can be started with a normal team of 8 people. As for whether or not it can actually be completed, I haven't tried it very many times or even finished it once, but the only time I came incredibly close to finishing it we had eight.
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@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
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Originally Posted by Psycho_Sarah
My 10 year old was watching me play tonight. I was in a pug Lamda. He asked why there were so many heroes needed, when all the other stuff was for a single team (I don't do Hami raids cause I am not usually on when they are going). I thought about my answer for a while, and told him, that this isn't your normal Save the World action. This is war. Wars aren't fought with just teams of 8.
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I could not have put that better myself.
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The market leader has gone from:|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Small squad content like Rikti mothership raids, right? The 800 Pound Gorilla of MMORPG's raid content you can still run with 10 or 25 man teams, which is pretty much the size range for BAF and Lambda. And then you have EVE and Rift's free for alls which AFAIK aren't size-limited.
And its not like we didn't get a new pair of TFs either. You can do massive raids or still do the small team content, they're both still there. More options are good. |
40----->25------>10
For the current expansion, 10 mans are the focus now.
The reason the market leader has focused on 10 man PVE, and 10 man RBG PVP is that they have found there is more of a community building then with 40 man raids. Sure 40 man raids is more inclusive due to sheer size, but you are simply a cog in the machine. Your individual efforts don't stand out except when you make a major mistake. Furthermore, it is unreasonable to find that many people now a days as the MMORPG industry is on a decline as whole.
It has been theorized that all the older MMORPG's are becoming hardcore all of sudden because of this shrinking to cater to a "loyal" base. The market leader in the previous expansion was very accessible to all players with their heroics. Now, heroics are very tough unless you have the gear from the very same heroics. Doesn't that sound familiar?
Indeed, that is the design behind the two trials. You must grind them until you obtain the incarnate slots, so you can grind them faster, and more efficiently.
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Not to mention "Infinity Gauntlet" or any of the other Thanos Infinity books. Or "Secret Wars." Or any of the various summer team up events the Big Two try to cram down everyone's throats every year.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I agree, I don't know what the devs are thinking. It's not like in the comics heroes join in these huge groups to combat major threats.
Wait what? [/SIZE] |
I was going to post something similar, but comics are FULL of stories of many, many heroes banding together to do something because some amazing and grand threat is just too big for eight heroes.
It's part of the lore this game is based on, and now it's part of the game.
Get over it.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
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All good literary examples, but they don't quite support your argument. The thing about the new trials is that you can - and probably should - split into smaller groups within your League. Ran a Lambda today. It started with two/three groups tackling different spawns. We regrouped to take down the doorman, natch. Then, split formally into two, which each then became two smaller informal groups. Regroup again for the big battle scene, where everyone comes together - just as they do at the end of many of your citations.|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
(Examples of small, memorable teams)
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Certainly, in the final battle, some of us blended into the big wall of damage/support, with a few - the leader, the tank - shining brightest. Fair enough - even beloved members of the Fellowship were mostly there as backup by the end of RotK. There was still room for individual distinction in the earlier stages: reporting on target locations, rescuing each other from troublesome mobs, kicking trousery regions.
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But I already mentioned they're continually building 25 and 10 man content. And they're still producing the content for 25 man, so there's still a market for it.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
The market leader has gone from:
40----->25------>10 For the current expansion, 10 mans are the focus now. The reason the market leader has focused on 10 man PVE, and 10 man RBG PVP is that they have found there is more of a community building then with 40 man raids. Sure 40 man raids is more inclusive due to sheer size, but you are simply a cog in the machine. Your individual efforts don't stand out except when you make a major mistake. Furthermore, it is unreasonable to find that many people now a days as the MMORPG industry is on a decline as whole. |
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| It has been theorized that all the older MMORPG's are becoming hardcore all of sudden because of this shrinking to cater to a "loyal" base. The market leader in the previous expansion was very accessible to all players with their heroics. Now, heroics are very tough unless you have the gear from the very same heroics. Doesn't that sound familiar? |
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| Indeed, that is the design behind the two trials. You must grind them until you obtain the incarnate slots, so you can grind them faster, and more efficiently. |
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Pretty much this.
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Originally Posted by Defenestrator
Not to mention "Infinity Gauntlet" or any of the other Thanos Infinity books. Or "Secret Wars." Or any of the various summer team up events the Big Two try to cram down everyone's throats every year.
I was going to post something similar, but comics are FULL of stories of many, many heroes banding together to do something because some amazing and grand threat is just too big for eight heroes. It's part of the lore this game is based on, and now it's part of the game. Get over it. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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No the focus is 10 mans, and 25 mans are becoming as deserted as 40 were when people flocked to the 25 mans over the 40.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
But I already mentioned they're continually building 25 and 10 man content. And they're still producing the content for 25 man, so there's still a market for it.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Familiar doesn't mean the exact same. It shouldn't be any surprise anyways that Paragon is borrowing end game ideas from the most successful MMORPG on the market either. The 800 pound gorilla is still 800 pounds for a reason.
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| Or you can grind for shards and cash and still run the trials, and there will still be all the old stuff to do alongside new TFs. Again, more options are good, right? |
For me, CoH has always been a game about single groups. It's been accessible to soloers, duoers, and single teams.
With a few exceptions, the vast majority of the content for City of Heroes fits this rule. Every issue before issue 20 has made a point of NOT tying progression or character customization to raid content.
Even with the most difficult, trial-like content, the point of the game has been to work well together in small squads rather than huge armies. This is even written into the game lore in various places. (Alpha and Omega teams, anyone? Marcus and Stefan ditched their small team and DUOED their way to the Well of the Furies.)
With Issue 20, Paragon has embraced warcraft-style raid instances. I didn't have a lot of time to try to beta i20, so I got to experience this at launch with the majority of other players. What surprised me most is how tied the new advancement is to the raid content. You *can* very slowly and expensively convert solo progress into new progression and customization, but the issue has made quite clear that the PREFERRED method is to raid for it.
This sucks. I burned out on raiding before I ever came to CoH. The feeling of being part of an army is not really fun for me. Even with very fun people I like, the feeling of being in a raid leaves me cold. I'm a faceless minion that could be replaced by anyone rather than an important member of the Five Man Band. I'm either a cat to be herded or an inhuman general to be kvetched at because I don't know how to lead well.
It's not 'Super' at all. I19 captured 'Super' so well, having you fly into Praetoria while all the other heroes of Paragon City were holding the line. It felt really awesome to defend the PPD against a legion of warwalkers.
I20 has you two-shotted by Marauder and his band of Warwalkers again and again. Not so super. 'Oh, here's a little progress on your bar. Surely if you keep at it, you and 15 other random heroes will eventually be able to put him down.' No, that's not very super at all.
The difference between the two is requiring multiple groups to succeed at the content.
Worse, to progress in anything LIKE a timely fashion through the new abilities, you MUST raid. The alternative is at least a 5x timesink grinding shards.
After COMPLETING both raids with talented parties composed of people I like, I'm starting to see that there's not a lot in i20 for me.
I'm pretty disappointed.