Multi-group content is not the way.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-06 22:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Just out of curiosity, what character is that?|
Originally Posted by Venture
I don't have anything against raid-level encounters per se, but these arguments in their favor aren't very compelling, and the particular ones we just got appear to have been designed in a ham-handed fashion that makes my preferred character into dead weight. That last is bleeding out into the non-raid portions of the game.
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Possibly relevant, possibly not, but the trials I've been on have been rather melee-heavy. Now either this is due to people's desire to bring their favorite characters on end-game content that must be repeated ad nauseum (an inherent problem with putting an alt-unfriendly system in an alt-friendly game) or player perception that you must be this tough to ride (which will probably sort itself out with time.)
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Personally, anything I even have to bring to one is melee, because Scrappers and Brutes are the only things I have at 50. Well, and one Mastermind, but after reading the TechBot's experiences, I'm disinclined to bring that anywhere near.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Possibly relevant, possibly not, but the trials I've been on have been rather melee-heavy. Now either this is due to people's desire to bring their favorite characters on end-game content that must be repeated ad nauseum (an inherent problem with putting an alt-unfriendly system in an alt-friendly game) or player perception that you must be this tough to ride (which will probably sort itself out with time.)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Exactly how would having someone else's strategies fed to you via out of game guide help you in either situation?|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Do me a favor and go solo the BAF.
Do me a bigger favor and close all 10 portals in Lambda with a full League of people who've never done it and haven't read up on it or asked anyone about it. See where that gets you. Apparently, a little knowledge never hurt anyone but you. |
Seriously. That's one heck of a guide if you can just read it and suddenly solo the BAF, or make an uncommunicative and inexperienced team work well enough to defeat league content.
It's like you're intentionally trying to develop a reputation for giving the worst examples ever. What do either of the above have to do with the idea that out of game guides should not be a requirement? Or that 'read the guide' is not a valid solution for all ills?
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Yes, I've seen people say things along those lines. I just wanted to make it clear that that wasn't my opinion, because I've seen a lot of 'you're on Side A, so you must think Thing 1!' in these threads.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
There are still people who are literally saying that.
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Originally Posted by Kailure
I can respect that. What confuses me though is that people want the trials to be able to be done with 5 people when even the end game TFs we've had for a while now require at least 8 to start. If you're not fine with 8, then how are you even finished with your Alpha slot?
And if you are fine with 8, why not just do the Lambda Sector every now and then? Surely you do an STF, ITF, LGTF every now and then? Disregard anyone who says it's impossible with only that many and work at it, I've come close in only two days and with complete randoms. Was the first time for about half the team when we did, too. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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You're right, it is. The incarnate system is to reward those who still play their 50s.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's not a question of getting a NotW. It's a question of getting the shards and components. There ain't enough content to get those without repeating, and repeating a lot. I can run one TF and get a notice, yes. But what am I going to make the actual Boost with?
Argue what you will. There's no going around the fact that the Incarnate system is designed around repeating the same tasks over and over again in pursuit of rewards. And I see no reason to repeat tasks with the same character when I can run them with different characters and get at least a tangentially novel experience from it. |
I still played my Brute for years after hitting 50. As an Incarnate, I can get progressively stronger again.
You don't need me to tell you that this system doesn't cater to you, but I hope you'll give the trials another good try in a week or two. They can be a lot of fun and you don't need a maxed out Alpha slot to be successful.
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From what I've seen in the Incarnate window, the estimated time to accomplish anything noteworthy through this approach tends towards the expected heat death of the universe.
| If you don't like the iTrails, there's no need to do them. Just generate lots of Shards on 8 man teams that mow through content and convert them. Part of the beauty of I20 is you get to do the content you like and still make Incarnate progress. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I'll give the Trials a try in a year or two when they're no longer the latest fad. That's usually how long it takes me to "get around to" most new stuff that I have very little interest in. For instance: Inventions Sets came out how long ago? The first time I slotted one was about five days ago, and I've not missed a day of subscription time.|
Originally Posted by Kailure
You don't need me to tell you that this system doesn't cater to you, but I hope you'll give the trials another good try in a week or two. They can be a lot of fun and you don't need a maxed out Alpha slot to be successful.
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I just wish that those who still play their 50s didn't have to repeat the same handful of TFs over and over again. I would gladly play my 50s more if there were anything left for them to do but Paper missions and Tips.
If I've run a TF once, I've run it a thousand times. If I've beaten a TF once, I've beaten it. I can conceivably play the ones I like again, even several times, but "several times" aren't enough in the new system. And that's several times over a long stretch of time, not several times in several days. So, really, the only reasons I have left to grind TFs is if I bring a different character every time, thus renovating the experience and expanding on the characters' concepts, or for the "phat lute," which I have very little interest in.
Let me put it this way - I'm a "Boom! Headshot!" sort of guy. The large AoE instagib powers would be right up my alley. Yet even they can't really make me care about the raid grind very much.
Call it what you will, but I'm disappointed when a game manages to make me just... Stop caring entirely. I still play the rest of the game, and have much fun with it. I recently discovered that even though Scrapper Burn may be bugged, I still love the power to bits, and that my Fire/Fire Scrapper may be one of my favourite characters yet. I've gotten her from 1 to 30 over the last week or so, as I took some time away from work (thank you, endless maintenance). THAT I care about. Raid grind... Not so much.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The threads --> exp conversion could be much greater, at the very least. The slots don't take long to unlock in a trial but it's a black hole for threads if you don't do the trials.
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Originally Posted by Venture
From what I've seen in the Incarnate window, the estimated time to accomplish anything noteworthy through this approach tends towards the expected heat death of the universe.
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If we try and give the Devs the benefit of the doubt, you could argue that this is the huge Giant Robot invasion that requires all the superteams to combine. Kind of like the comicbook epics where the Avengers, X-Men, Fantastic Four, Defenders et al join forces to fight the biggest threat mankind has ever known (which is why the Avengers formed in the first place)
The principle is sound, but to make it worthwhile, the enemy has to be worth getting a team that big for. And there's the problem: The mechanics of doing that are pretty borked. The whole group thing just doesn't work properly.
What bugs me about this is that the Rikti & Zombie invasions provided a perfectly sound model for that kind of activity; just dive in, shout for a team invite and kill stuff. That could easily have been done here (probably far simpler than what we have, both from a programming and gameplay perspective.) What we actually get is ok conceptually but it's execution is pretty sub-par.
Thelonious Monk
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Right, everyone loved Civil War.
| And that argument would have some weight if it wasn't completely a matter of your opinion. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Part of the problem is that it's not the Giant Robot Invasion. It's a prison breakout and one military depot, neither being even remotely jobs for people with supposedly godlike powers.
| If we try and give the Devs the benefit of the doubt, you could argue that this is the huge Giant Robot invasion that requires all the superteams to combine. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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The military depot you could at least argue that they are building superweapons, so you need people with super superpowers to stop it. Of course it would be nice to actually see some of those superweapons instead of just a souped-up Marauder and one War Walker, whereas on Tin Mage we took down two simultaneously, possibly with fewer people.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Part of the problem is that it's not the Giant Robot Invasion. It's a prison breakout and one military depot, neither being even remotely jobs for people with supposedly godlike powers.
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BAF....I got nothing. Hey look, boobies!
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| Right, everyone loved Civil War. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I gotta' side with Venture on this one. This is turning into the dark side of Dragon Ball Z. "I'm the strongest warrior in the universe!" "Ha-ah! You're no match for me in my Perfect Form!" We give characters godlike powers, and then treat them like demigod battle grunts.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Part of the problem is that it's not the Giant Robot Invasion. It's a prison breakout and one military depot, neither being even remotely jobs for people with supposedly godlike powers.
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I realise now how hollow my expectations were way back when, but I always envisioned godlike power making us more distinct and more important, not more like a faceless crowd.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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We went from being the big fish in a small pond (Paragon City) to being a (relatively speaking) smaller fish in a bigger pond (the multiverse)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I gotta' side with Venture on this one. This is turning into the dark side of Dragon Ball Z. "I'm the strongest warrior in the universe!" "Ha-ah! You're no match for me in my Perfect Form!" We give characters godlike powers, and then treat them like demigod battle grunts.
I realise now how hollow my expectations were way back when, but I always envisioned godlike power making us more distinct and more important, not more like a faceless crowd. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Which, at least in my opinion, is a massive step down in narrative satisfaction. From where I'm sitting, a pleasant if implausible fictional story got polluted with realism, destroying - or at least coming close to it - what was otherwise a pretty alluring utopia.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
We went from being the big fish in a small pond (Paragon City) to being a (relatively speaking) smaller fish in a bigger pond (the multiverse)
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Utopias don't work in the real world, because ultimately they cannot sustain themselves. But this isn't, and indeed shouldn't be, the real world. I would personally see the storyline driven by what would be cool to have.
Sure, big flashy powers are always cool to have, but not cool enough to offset the depressing storyline, in my opinion. And that's all I have to say to describe it - "depressing."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, in the first case, maybe it's just me, but even the word "mindwashing", knowing nothing more about what that power/effect might entail, from a guy who makes it his hobby to feed his citizens a pacifying, mind-altering drug in (effectively) their water... makes me want to go out and get some sort of high-explosive 'defensive' weaponry.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Part of the problem is that it's not the Giant Robot Invasion. It's a prison breakout and one military depot, neither being even remotely jobs for people with supposedly godlike powers.
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In the second case, that military depot is guarded by some pretty tough enemies, no? I mean, it's hard, right? Even for us tough superheroes, right?? Isn't that one of the things being complained about?
I mean, you could also call Hiroshima and Nagasaki 'a couple of big firecrackers,' and Hurricane Andrew was 'just some heavy rain', right?
Pardon the ridiculousness of these examples, no offense meant. But CoX storywise, these do seem to be actual serious threats, and not just mountain-out-of-a-molehill stuff, no? Certainly more interesting and serious than a Zombie/Rikti Invasion, imo...
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
I have a problem already with pre-20 content. People complain that they loose sight of what is being contributed in large groups of teams. One person here mentioned that in teams of 8 or less.. I have to agree with that person. When you see blasters at the front lines with +def kitted out IO sets causing more mayhem than the brute, you have to say... what's going on? When you see two or three blasters like that, or maybe a scrapper, you have to say, what's the point of me being here? I mean, really. Half the team is team dependant. The other half is a team by theirself. Add in additional super awesome powers, and you end up with more people being super-awesome without help. Doing fun things like teaming will actually become less and less likely. People need to remember that teaming is fun because you rely on each other. If there is no threat big enough to really require the base elements of what a character is, then what is the point of the team? I think 4/8 just isn't sufficient anymore to push a team to function properly anymore. We need something bigger, something more crazy. Maybe 4/16 for a team of 8. Something that really makes individuals useful in teams, and allows them to shine again.
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Hew in drag baby
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Historically, the end of these 'utopias' generally end in exactly your described result - destruction. (And historically, utopias are always just like Cole's shiny veneer hiding a filthy underbelly.) And stories depend on conflict. Without conflict, there'd be no reason to strive as superheroes, right?? |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Which, at least in my opinion, is a massive step down in narrative satisfaction. From where I'm sitting, a pleasant if implausible fictional story got polluted with realism, destroying - or at least coming close to it - what was otherwise a pretty alluring utopia.
Utopias don't work in the real world, because ultimately they cannot sustain themselves. But this isn't, and indeed shouldn't be, the real world. I would personally see the storyline driven by what would be cool to have. Sure, big flashy powers are always cool to have, but not cool enough to offset the depressing storyline, in my opinion. And that's all I have to say to describe it - "depressing." |
Getting philosophical now: It's only 'depressing' if you quit before you see the end result. And if you die in the trying, isnt that the point of it all?
"Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?"
-Hamlet (granted, maybe he was nuts...)
"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known." - A Tale of Two Cities
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one." - Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan (couldn't help it)
In general, I think these guys may have had the right idea, though.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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That's okay if it's client side only, or I can turn it off. I don't need my ego stroked by being a unique dragon. All I need to know is that my TEAM survived and the the LEAGUE prevailed.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
And we don't get that now how? In the league/team you're in, if you're the healer, you heal your teammates to keep 'em alive, the scrapper gets the extra bit of aggro or takes out some peeps, the tanker keeps the AV on him, etc..., etc...
Or did you mean you want a big animation/power that says, "X player just won this for everyone! We're so glad to have X person in the League!" Maybe if there was some sort of message/pop-up after the Trial was done saying, "X person healed this much/rez'ed y many people, A person killed this many mobs/etc..." people wouldn't be so hard on this? *shrugs* |
These Trials are not about ME and they are not about YOU**, they are about a group of people coming together, and when we realize that they way we are used to doing things don't work, we try something different. we might not even prevail on the first attempt, but in working together we can. I'll go ahead and quote one of my fovourite moves now.
"Do you know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed." Zoë
If an individual on a team wants to be a glory hound, make sure your team doesn't suffer for it.
Yes, these Trials are difficult, sometimes frustratingly so, but they are not impossible. Personally, I've never been one to just play my high level characters, nor have I been all that attached to the end-game content (or the lack thereof before now.) I am actually enjoying the strategy and tactics that have to be used in these Trials. Something that has even made the speed run teams take a step back and give a moments pause.
** General "YOU" not you personally, Energizing_Ion.
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So now I REALLY don't get it. The content is too hard for one set of people, and to others, it's becoming too easy because some people on the team don't depend on others in the team to survive?? |
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
I have a problem already with pre-20 content. People complain that they loose sight of what is being contributed in large groups of teams. One person here mentioned that in teams of 8 or less.. I have to agree with that person. When you see blasters at the front lines with +def kitted out IO sets causing more mayhem than the brute, you have to say... what's going on? When you see two or three blasters like that, or maybe a scrapper, you have to say, what's the point of me being here? I mean, really. Half the team is team dependant. The other half is a team by theirself. Add in additional super awesome powers, and you end up with more people being super-awesome without help. Doing fun things like teaming will actually become less and less likely. People need to remember that teaming is fun because you rely on each other. If there is no threat big enough to really require the base elements of what a character is, then what is the point of the team? I think 4/8 just isn't sufficient anymore to push a team to function properly anymore. We need something bigger, something more crazy. Maybe 4/16 for a team of 8. Something that really makes individuals useful in teams, and allows them to shine again.
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Is the only way we're supposed to play the Holy Trinity tanker/blaster/healer, plow from mob-to-mob style? Does everyone have to be maximally useful on each and every mission/activity there is in the game? Do I steal your glory because I can mini nuke with my archery blaster every 30 seconds, and kill some of the fury-providing mobs near your pbaoe-focused brute? Or do you want something so hard that these message boards fill up with complaints of "It's WAAAY TOO HARD!" even more than it is now?
Please try to design something that is doable for SO-kitted characters, but doesn't become completely trivial for people with 5 fully-slotted-with-very-rare Incarnate Enhancements and Purple-IOd out and accoladed heros. I dare you.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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Nicely put.
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Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja
That's okay if it's client side only, or I can turn it off. I don't need my ego stroked by being a unique dragon. All I need to know is that my TEAM survived and the the LEAGUE prevailed.
These Trials are not about ME and they are not about YOU, they are about a group of people coming together, and when we realize that they way we are used to doing things don't work, we try something different. we might not even prevail on the first attempt, but in working together we can. I'll go ahead and quote one of my fovourite moves now. "Do you know what the definition of a hero is? Someone who gets other people killed." Zoë If an individual on a team wants to be a glory hound, make sure your team doesn't suffer for it. Yes, these Trials are difficult, sometimes frustratingly so, but they are not impossible. Personally, I've never been one to just play my high level characters, nor have I been all that attached to the end-game content (or the lack thereof before now.) I am actually enjoying the strategy and tactics that have to be used in these Trials. Something that has even made the speed run teams take a step back and give a moments pause. |
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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I think this is close to, but not quite on the mark. People merely reach for the highest gain per investment. Right now, a huge number of characters are no longer as useful, because their primary effects are most affected by IO enh. It would be nice to see those effects no longer be eclipsed so heavily by an investment in IOs. For instance, some sort of Incarnate intrinsic buff that boosted specifically the powers of characters who currently are eclipsed by IO enh such as melee or ranged defense, eg FF, or other such type powers. |
Originally Posted by galadiman
Please try to design something that is doable for SO-kitted characters, but doesn't become completely trivial for people with 5 fully-slotted-with-very-rare Incarnate Enhancements and Purple-IOd out and accoladed heros. I dare you.
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A good way to do this would be a 7% boost to primary or secondary "effect" powers across the board for Incarnates, which would give a more obvious, non-IO based benefit for characters running Incarnate content on SOs or minimal slotting.
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Hew in drag baby
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The killer rabbit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail was a serious threat too. Why is the cute little bunny one-shotting fully armored knights? Who cares, it's funny. Why is a minor plot to get pacified sheeple to support a guy who doesn't need their support so vital that we have to send our most powerful heroes and villains to stop it? It ain't funny, so it needs a reason.
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Originally Posted by galadiman
Pardon the ridiculousness of these examples, no offense meant. But CoX storywise, these do seem to be actual serious threats, and not just mountain-out-of-a-molehill stuff, no? Certainly more interesting and serious than a Zombie/Rikti Invasion, imo...
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
So if I work my *** off to get the highest rewards in the game, it's OK for people who didn't work that hard to be compensated for their 'not work' by completely making all my work getting all that stuff on my character moot and pointless? Then why would anyone strive for that loot in the first place??
I choose not to be 'leveled', as you would have it.
And in exchange, the person who works hardest, as much as I may resent their flexibility to play 15 hours a day (Oh, to be in college again! 
), I will grudgingly bow to the awesomeness of their hero. Because they can be special too, right??
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Argue what you will. There's no going around the fact that the Incarnate system is designed around repeating the same tasks over and over again in pursuit of rewards. And I see no reason to repeat tasks with the same character when I can run them with different characters and get at least a tangentially novel experience from it.