Multi-group content is not the way.


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Count me in with the anti-multi-team group, for a few reasons that have already been said. I don't particularly enjoy invasions, Hamidon raids, or mothership raids. I like smaller groups. My ideal team size is 4-5 people: Enough to get things done, small enough that every player has their own niche that they can dramatically impact. Even teams of 8 can start to feel same-y, where every fight goes similarly because there are just so many attacks flying out. The more you add, the less I enjoy it: my damage becomes one source of it among a dozen others and my buffs fall on people that are already defense-capped four times over from other sources. Are there exceptions? Yeah, sure. I've experienced them. But as a rule of thumb, it's a pretty good one. Is this part solved partially by situations that encourage the team to split up? Yes. Can I partially increase my contribution with leadership and good playing? Yeah. But neither of these are full cures.

With the graphics powers get in this game, huge fights just look horrible to me, as everything turns into a smear of pink fire blue energy rain rain purple rain fire-rain imps vines fire explosion ice. Instead of being able to grit my teeth and turn things around personally if somebody's not pulling their weight, I have to count on the competence of a dozen people I don't necessarily know, even if I do know how to do things well enough to give instructions. Can this be a problem in teams as they are? Yeah. But if there are already problems, adding more people exacerbates it most of the time.

I encourage you to read this as 'this type of content does not align well with my personal preferences, and am offering my feedback' rather than 'this content is bad and the devs and people who enjoy it should feel bad.'


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Posted

Every time I read one of these threads I feel like making some popcorn and munching away while the sparks fly. It seems like everyone would benefit from taking a step away and doing something else for a little while, especially people like Friggin Taser, who seem to be on some sort of crusade against those with differing opinions.

And on that note: I dislike the new trials, I think they're a horrible new direction and it's a pain in the *** to go from incredibly survivable Mastermind to road-kill almost faster than it takes for my Assault Bot to recharge. But I'm going to do them anyway because I want my freaking ACU, damn it.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser View Post
Hint: it's because they are actually playing the game and not just turning this issue into a soapbox on the forums.
Hint, it's because most people don't post on forums. I've heard quite a bit of frustrated people in game.


Still here, even after all this time!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano View Post
yes but the new TFs aren't Incarnate content, they're regular content.

So you can have the Incarnate Praetoria War content with just a single team or even solo, now it doesn't have to skimp on the challenge, infact it shouldn't.

Edit: Unless you meant the new trials, of which only the Lambda is minimum 8 people and that's not going to happen unless the team is really, really good or people have got both of their Incarnate level shifts.
So.. the 2 Lambda's i lead, and WON within an hour of the servers coming up on Liberty, with a 8 man team made ENTIRELY off the LFG system because the global channels were down just doesn't count?

Granted, I team pretty regularly, and I use the global channels a lot, and i have a pretty large global friends list, so most of the people the LFG threw into my group i at lest teamed with one time or another, so we weren't ALL complete strangers, but NOONE else had done the Lambdas before, and I personally have only ran them twice on the betas, one time being a complete failure.

It is possible to complete Lambda (and BAF) with the minimal people. Maybe they should give us a badge for it so people will stop saying its impossible...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
It is possible to complete Lambda (and BAF) with the minimal people. Maybe they should give us a badge for it so people will stop saying its impossible...
Maybe they should give us a badge for it so those of us who prefer smaller groups will have an easier time finding other people willing to try with a smaller group.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Maybe they should give us a badge for it so those of us who prefer smaller groups will have an easier time finding other people willing to try with a smaller group.
That works too. Though you can premake your own 8 man group, queue up and more often then not start right away, with just your 8 people. Boom. Small groups, made just the way they were before (well, except you have to group up in RWZ or pocket D before queueing up.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Maybe they should give us a badge for it so those of us who prefer smaller groups will have an easier time finding other people willing to try with a smaller group.
That's something which never fails to get my nethergoat - people feel that you ain't teaming unless you're on a full team. I've run quite a few TFs which are easily startable with as few as four people, yet the team leader will refuse to start unless we have a full complement of eight. I've run on PUGs where the leader insists on replacing anyone who drops team as close to instantly as possible so we're never below eight people. And I've even read team-leading guides that proclaim that a team isn't a team if it's less than five people.

To be perfectly honest, teaming is easy when it's with one or two other people. I can put teams like that together in my sleep and play with them to my heart's content. In fact, a lot of people are much more pleasant one-on-one than as a voice in the crowd. Even if we ignore solo content (yeah, yeah), we're still left with no small-team content post-50.

And I'm not just talking about Lambada and BARF. Look at the other level 50 TFs we can run:

*STF - 8 people
*RSF - 8 people
*Lady Grey - I don't know how many this requires to start, but I've never run one with less than 8 people
*ITF - 6 people minumum, most run with 7 or 8
*Tin Mage - 8 people
*Apex - 8 people

OK, credit where credit is due, the two Mender Silos TFs don't have a minimum team requirememnt, but look at everything else - six people and more. Feh!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Task_Forces

Small-Team content and Task Forces are 2 different things.

Trials and Task Forces are also 2 different things.

Please stop trying to make them all equal.

Now, you can do some task forces with small teams, and you can do some trials with task force level teams, but they aren't all the same beast. Its like the different between a house cat, a puma, and a lion. They all may be considered 'Cats' but they are by far totally different animals.


 

Posted

If you don't like the iTrails, there's no need to do them. Just generate lots of Shards on 8 man teams that mow through content and convert them. Part of the beauty of I20 is you get to do the content you like and still make Incarnate progress.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemodand View Post
If you don't like the iTrails, there's no need to do them. Just generate lots of Shards on 8 man teams that mow through content and convert them. Part of the beauty of I20 is you get to do the content you like and still make Incarnate progress.
That was the beauty of i19. In i20 you get to make very slow Incarnate progress unless the content you like happens to be the trials. In i19 you got to make reasonable progress no matter what you did, and even to make fast progress you had quite a few options.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Task_Forces

Small-Team content and Task Forces are 2 different things.

Trials and Task Forces are also 2 different things.

Please stop trying to make them all equal.
When did I? I listed about five or six things with TF or SF appended, meaning they were all Task Forces, with "Strike Force" being a pointless renaming of the same basic system.

I'm not convinced that TFs can't or shouldn't be small team content, however, especially considering they kind of already are. The Posi TF only requires three people, and I ran it with three people about a week ago. It did not present too much of a problem (bastardised narrative timeline notwithstanding).

So why is it such a novel concept to have small-team TFs at the level cap?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I am disappointed also Moo. It is easy to say "this isn't for you go do something else". And if it is just a one issue thing then I can almost agree with that.
My worry is that this is the trend of things to come. I worry that the next couple issues will be this same thing. And that I think it is worth worrying about. I pay my same monthly fee. And while I understand some like this, not everyone does. I do agree we should have variety, as long as that variety includes those that have no interest in raids. Future content should include those that prefer small teams. Those that like raids got them this issue.
Variety also would mean that future content isn't focused on Praetoria. I've had about enough of it. Something new now please.




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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
That was the beauty of i19. In i20 you get to make very slow Incarnate progress unless the content you like happens to be the trials. In i19 you got to make reasonable progress no matter what you did, and even to make fast progress you had quite a few options.
I20 has been out for 2 days, and I've unlocked my Interface, Judgement and Destiny slots. I've slotted them with commons. I get between 5-15 threads per run and I can make about 6 runs per day. How is this slow?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
That was the beauty of i19. In i20 you get to make very slow Incarnate progress unless the content you like happens to be the trials. In i19 you got to make reasonable progress no matter what you did, and even to make fast progress you had quite a few options.
2 days to unlock a slot;
6 days to an common;
10 days to an uncommon.

A little over two months to get uncommons in each slot.

That's at the 10:10 conversion rate.

It's only the rares and above that become difficult. You get a significant amount of the flavor of the Incarnate abilities at the uncommon level.

For someone who refuses to do the trials, that's not that bad.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
I20 has been out for 2 days, and I've unlocked my Interface, Judgement and Destiny slots. I've slotted them with commons. I get between 5-15 threads per run and I can make about 6 runs per day. How is this slow?
I believe the point was that it's slow outside of the Trials, hence why they're not seen as an alternative.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I still cannot understand the rationale behind wanting solo access to powers that are most useful on team content and would completely trivialize already-easy regular content. The best argument I've heard is that your interests are not being met, but you know what, neither are those of the base-building and PvP communities. You can't always get what you want. It sucks that you're not getting any new stuff, but you are making the choice not to play the new content, and the devs can't do everything at once. Right now they're focusing on Incarnate content. 5 years ago they were focusing on Villain content. Priorities change.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
I still cannot understand the rationale behind wanting solo access to powers that are most useful on team content and would completely trivialize already-easy regular content. The best argument I've heard is that your interests are not being met, but you know what, neither are those of the base-building and PvP communities. You can't always get what you want. It sucks that you're not getting any new stuff, but you are making the choice not to play the new content, and the devs can't do everything at once. Right now they're focusing on Incarnate content. 5 years ago they were focusing on Villain content. Priorities change.
I understand the desire to have progression as a solo focused character. I don't begrudge people that. What I don't understand is this incessant need to use hyperbole to attack Issue 20.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO View Post
The Fellowship of the Ring was 9 guys. Everyone familiar with the story remembers what they did, especially when they had to break down into smaller groups. Even then, Pippin and Merry don't really get to stand on their own as characters until they split off from Frodo and Sam.
Hafta call you on this. Apologies if I'm repeating another, didn't read the whole thread yet.

Yeah, never mind about all the supporting characters (Eowyn?!??, off the top of my head), the setbacks they suffered (including several perma-deaths [Boromir, Theoden...] and one true resurrection), the reversals and regroupings... Please.

edit: Oh yeah, and several GINORMOUS armies holding off the orcish hordes to get The Main Event completed. With HyperElephants.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I believe the point was that it's slow outside of the Trials, hence why they're not seen as an alternative.
I, for one, like slow and steady progress towards goals and will not do the trials. I've just finished getting 30 Alignment Merits on each of 3 characters so am very comfortable with the alternative solo method.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
I still cannot understand the rationale behind wanting solo access to powers that are most useful on team content and would completely trivialize already-easy regular content. The best argument I've heard is that your interests are not being met, but you know what, neither are those of the base-building and PvP communities. You can't always get what you want. It sucks that you're not getting any new stuff, but you are making the choice not to play the new content, and the devs can't do everything at once. Right now they're focusing on Incarnate content. 5 years ago they were focusing on Villain content. Priorities change.
True. Let's hope they ALSO focus on the often ignored things like powerset prolif, bases, and pvp in the next few upcoming issues.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
I understand the desire to have progression as a solo focused character. I don't begrudge people that. What I don't understand is this incessant need to use hyperbole to attack Issue 20.
Well if you inherently hate raids I can see it.

Though I'd hardly call what we got in Issue 20 the traditional type of raid content.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
When did I? I listed about five or six things with TF or SF appended, meaning they were all Task Forces, with "Strike Force" being a pointless renaming of the same basic system.

I'm not convinced that TFs can't or shouldn't be small team content, however, especially considering they kind of already are. The Posi TF only requires three people, and I ran it with three people about a week ago. It did not present too much of a problem (bastardised narrative timeline notwithstanding).

So why is it such a novel concept to have small-team TFs at the level cap?
The problem is high level characters multiply the difficulty bar. If the dev's design with 3 level 50s in mind, then with 8, its trivial, where if they design with 8 in mind, with 3 its a challenge.

Its like playing at a handicap in just about any game that allows handicaps. You know your playing at a disadvantage, but forcing everyone else to play that way just isn't fair to everyone else.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbegla View Post
The problem is high level characters multiply the difficulty bar. If the dev's design with 3 level 50s in mind, then with 8, its trivial, where if they design with 8 in mind, with 3 its a challenge.

Its like playing at a handicap in just about any game that allows handicaps. You know your playing at a disadvantage, but forcing everyone else to play that way just isn't fair to everyone else.
I wouldn't necessarily agree that's the case for EVERY time. In general maybe, but I've been on plenty of high level tfs where we've dropped below the 8 (one ITF had 5 of us on Rommie) and we still kicked the tf's teeth in. If the players are good enough less than 8 is NOT necessarily a handicap.

Also I think you SHOULD be able to start with less than 8 if you intend to do it to CHALLENGE yourself. I see nothing wrong with that.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I'm not convinced that TFs can't or shouldn't be small team content, however, especially considering they kind of already are. The Posi TF only requires three people, and I ran it with three people about a week ago. It did not present too much of a problem (bastardised narrative timeline notwithstanding).

So why is it such a novel concept to have small-team TFs at the level cap?
Technically Khan and Barracuda can be started with four people, but the massively bloated sack of HP at the end very much discourages running with only four.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
I20 has been out for 2 days, and I've unlocked my Interface, Judgement and Destiny slots. I've slotted them with commons. I get between 5-15 threads per run and I can make about 6 runs per day. How is this slow?
Runs of what exactly? Oh, you mean the trials? How does this help people who don't like the trials?


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