Multi-group content is not the way.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-06 22:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I agree with most of this and yet I like the trials. However, while I'm on them I'm sure as hell not trying to BANTER with anyone. Too busy trying not to die, make sure prisoners don't escape, and running around to get the weapons to defeat maurauder without getting curbstomped by adds.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Otherwise known as the law of conservation of ninjutsu
 Something like that, yes. The more the characters in any given story, the less face time they get and the less memorable and awesome they are in the end. To wax anime for a moment:Take Naruto, for example. That show has loads and loads of characters. I haven't counted, but there are probably over 50 named ones. They almost never show up together at the same time for anything other than epilogue greetings. Most of the time it's a team of four (standard for the show's canon laws) or several teams of four scattered across several different events. And even then loads of those characters spend months with no screen time at all. In fact, the show had a couple of jokes about that. One was when Garra and his friends were shown in the script that they wouldn't be appearing in the next few story arcs, much to their disappointment. And indeed, we didn't see them for around a year. The other was a few characters joking about renaming the show into "Shikamaru Shippuuden" or "Asuma Shippuuden" because the titular protagonist was about to spend two full story arcs training and having not much of any plot to him. You know, like the last 200 episodes, but I digress. Another good example is Shaman King. This show has a main cast of over a dozen, plus quite a fat supporting cast, plus a whole cadre of villains and a whole host of cameo characters. However, it manages to make all characters personable by leading them through each character's personal story arc one by one, highlighting that particular character as the story's main protagonist, with the rest acting like supporting cast and combat team-mates. I don't recall a single encounter in 64 episodes that wasn't focused on one specific character, up to and including the final battle that highlighted the show's de-facto protagonist. What I'm saying is that, at least for some people, what feels "epic" isn't the number of warm bodies tossed at a problem like one might dispense bird seed for the pigeons in a public park, but rather a story which highlights a specific character or two or three and focuses on them. In fact, I just got done writing an essay on why stories should make us care and what stories should make us care about, and "characters" was and is central to that, in my eyes. And you really can't design any sort of gameplay which lets everyone shine in his own way when you're dealing with more people than you can fit on a bus. That's not to say there isn't a kind of "epic" feel to a large-scale war where everyone in the show thus far goes all out. But it's a specific kind of "epic" that doesn't work for everybody. I'm not so sure about that, myself. One of the reasons I've stuck with this game for so long can be summed up in the old 2001 trailer tagline: "City of Heroes, where YOU are the hero!" For the most part, this game does a great job of making me feel like THE hero. Not always on a team, no, but I'm careful about who I team with and what I team for. For the most part, I try to be on a team that specifically needs what I bring, and that goes some way towards fulfilling that specification. But when the team just needs "more" of what I have, it starts feeling faceless. I'm not a named hero, I'm "a Scrapper" or, more commonly, I'm just "DPS." A poster recently said "Screw concept." in those exact words. This, to my eyes, is what these Trials are leading us to. I don't question whether the gameplay is fun or not. I'm sure it is for those that like that sort of thing. But it comes at the cost of fracturing my suspension of disbelief like a mirror by rubbing my face in the fact that I really am just another brick in the wall, just another face in the crowd, just another hero in a city that already has far too many. I know that to be true, but I try to ignore it as much as I can, and indeed pretend that the game is, in fact, all about me. I can do that solo just fine. I can do that on a small team. I can... Sort of do that on a large team. I can't do that in a league. Just can't. So, no, I don't intend to work the Trials, and I don't intend to try and stop people from working them. To each their own. I just want to do what I can to cull the misconception that people like me are somehow callous or deficient or wrong in their preferences. No more, no less. |
Unlike other content these trials ARE REALLY NOT the place for inane banter. Especially since they just came out. Maybe in 2-5 months once everyone is suped up with +3s and knows them like the back of their hand then. Right now, no, not really. Everyone is too busy learning and making sure not to clog up the League channel with stupidity, so that we can all listen to and understand the one raid leader (or one or two people) who seem to know what they are doing.
Then again that might because I've done them with nothing but PUGs so far. ALL failed, but I don't care about that as Interface and 78% of Judgement are unlocked.
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I have to stand with Moo here. This reading between the lines is... Wait a minute... What is that?|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Really, Vanden? Are you maybe confusing me with someone else?
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Can you see it? There's something there, I'm sure of it. Let's look a little closer.
There is! There is something there! What is that? It looks like text. Let's see...
Is that? No... You can't mean that... It's too small to read.
Oh, man, yes, it is. I can't believe this. That can't be right. It must be...
Oh, come on, now! Moo! I'm ashamed of you, man. I'm ashamed of you. I never thought to read between the lines of your posts, but who would have thought THAT was there?
Well, I am sickened and disgusted!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I agree with you. It adds an epicness to the event it's self. Im more concened about the execution than the concept. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'm trying to tie in using Leagues for the new content and the difficulty of said content with the Dark Reign/Siege saga. We have to take down Tyrant, and to do that we have to smash up his Praetors. Eight people just isn't enough.
The heroes of Marvel had to take down Norman Osborn, and to do that they had to usurp him and those who follow him. Sending a few signature heroes wasn't enough. My point: Regular 8 man teams usually won't be enough for this new content. |
Again these things will change pvertime when mechanics get reviewed.
A grand scale battle wit multiple groups of heroes is amazing. Im dating myself here but Marvels Secret Wars was and will still be amazing, although arguably Executioners Song was up there.
Id like to see these grand displays, the problem is that the dynamic of the league feels less cohesive then the examples you are mentioning, due to game limitations, and the fact that it was is not orchestrated well.
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Nice deflection.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I agree completely. The "raids are awesome and epic and awesome" crowd is more guilty of this than anyone.
Hmm, rereading my post, it does use the word "I" quite a bit doesn't it? Hmmm, seems to me like I AM SPEAKING FOR MY FREAKING SELF. And oh look, surprise surprise, a bunch of other people, also speaking FOR THEMSELVES, feel similarly. Now who's claiming to speak for everyone? Dismissing everyone who doesn't agree with you seems to be the new developer-endorsed direction for endgame, doesn't it, considering the amount of what is essentially "shut up and suck it" the dev-supporters seem to be getting away with. |
Doesn't stop the fact that in every one of your posts you make some kind of hairbrained illogical conclusion that because that's how YOU play, EVERYONE plays like that.
Read back the post you quoted. You didn't say "On a team of 8, I find that I myself get to know people better." No, you posted, summed up for your raid-hating brain, "On smaller teams everyone gets to know everybody based on powersets or maybe if someone is an idiot and uses RotP as a joke. Also, grrrr hate raids, grrrr."
You are a broken record that no one really bought.
I await your deflection and then crass generalization of all players to meet your own opinions. Your posts are nothing but flashing lights.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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Sam, I want to +rep you so bad right now.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I have to stand with Moo here. This reading between the lines is... Wait a minute... What is that?
<snip> Oh, come on, now! Moo! I'm ashamed of you, man. I'm ashamed of you. I never thought to read between the lines of your posts, but who would have thought THAT was there? Well, I am sickened and disgusted! |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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You should be on everyones friend list!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I have to stand with Moo here. This reading between the lines is... Wait a minute... What is that?
Can you see it? There's something there, I'm sure of it. Let's look a little closer. There is! There is something there! What is that? It looks like text. Let's see... Is that? No... You can't mean that... It's too small to read. Oh, man, yes, it is. I can't believe this. That can't be right. It must be... Oh, come on, now! Moo! I'm ashamed of you, man. I'm ashamed of you. I never thought to read between the lines of your posts, but who would have thought THAT was there? Well, I am sickened and disgusted! |
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Got to love the anti-raid crowd constantly quoting and "me, too-ing" every post to make it seem like there are more people in their vocal minority than there are.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Sam, I want to +rep you so bad right now.
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Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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And yours are nothing but the same "I get what I want so screw anyone who doesn't like it" that usually comes with an inane winky attached.
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
I await your deflection and then crass generalization of all players to meet your own opinions. Your posts are nothing but flashing lights.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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If it's such a problem to say that, why are so many people saying it? |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I agree completely. The "raids are awesome and epic and awesome" crowd is more guilty of this than anyone.
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You're implying that the minority of people going "this issue is terrible" (and yes, those people are a minority whether you like it or not) are more correct than the majority, who are people who just walked out of a trial and said "I loved it!"
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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No, no, I agree with you completely. Trials and heavy action are not the place for banter. I do, however, remember that argument being tossed around with the OOOLD Hamidon encounter. I would complain that I spent four hours on the clock sitting on my hands, and people would cut me off saying how great of a community mingling spot that was, and how they didn't really care for the Hamidon and just went there for the banter... Banter which consisted of childish ad-hominem insults, intentional idiocy and people acting like complete jerks, but that's besides the point.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Unlike other content these trials ARE REALLY NOT the place for inane banter. Especially since they just came out. Maybe in 2-5 months once everyone is suped up with +3s and knows them like the back of their hand then. Right now, no, not really. Everyone is too busy learning and making sure not to clog up the League channel with stupidity, so that we can all listen to and understand the one raid leader (or one or two people) who seem to know what they are doing.
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What I'm mostly saying is that I don't see raids or TFs or even Pocket D as great socialisation opportunities. Then again, I'm also not the kind of guy who goes to bars and chats up strangers. I prefer my socialising to be done in private with just a couple of other people, both in-game and out.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ah, it's great to get the old Friggin Taser back. How I have missed you.
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Got to love the anti-raid crowd constantly quoting and "me, too-ing" every post to make it seem like there are more people in their vocal minority than there are.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I believe the intention was to call a stop to the hostilities. What the "I like raids" people are guilt of, if anything, is presenting me and people like me as social pariahs who are wrong for not liking raids no matter the reasons presented.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You're implying that the minority of people going "this issue is terrible" (and yes, those people are a minority whether you like it or not) are more correct than the majority, who are people who just walked out of a trial and said "I loved it!"
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Fine Eva, I'll talk to you like a person and not the caricature you have made yourself out to be with this issue.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
And yours are nothing but the same "I get what I want so screw anyone who doesn't like it" that usually comes with an inane winky attached.
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You say the devs have a "shut up and suck it up" attitude because they aren't talking to YOU personally this issue. What do you want them to say?
Do you want them to say "We're sorry this content doesn't appeal to you personally, so we're halting production on issue 20 and changing it to a series of story arcs?"
Do you want them to say "We're sorry you don't like raid content, here, have a free pony?"
Or are you going to look at this like a rational adult and see they already said it all in issue's past: "Every bit of content in an MMO won't appeal to everyone."
Remember when inventions came out? There was a vocal minority screaming about how they'd ruin the game. Yet we're still here so you can do the exact same thing with raids.
Remember when AE came out? With the rampant farming, there was a vocal minority screaming about how it would ruin the game. Yet we're still here so you can do the exact same thing with raids.
I can continue this with every major new system of content added to the game, Eva. You aren't a sparkly, unique snowflake just because this issue happens to be your snowflake.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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Different strokes bro|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This kinda mystifies me when I see it.
Mostly because most people I've seen say something like this mean it along the lines of: I'm not super unless I can crush any opposition to me with no effort at all. Personally, I find Batman a helluva lot more entertaining than Superman. Batman has challenges to overcome, Superman (unless it's some global threat) has essentially zero chance of being defeated by his opponent, and that's boring. |
Ramiel's arc was the most fun I've ever had in CoH, in particular the Ouroboros mission where you're in the future and max incarnatededed out. No chance of losing, but the most fun I've ever had.. and I've been here about as long as anyone's been able to be here.
I like the trials, but I'm not seeing this overwhelming majority of players claiming they love it, not ingame, and certainly not here (it's mostly just one dozen posters who post a dozen times in every topic).
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Hint: it's because they are actually playing the game and not just turning this issue into a soapbox on the forums.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
I like the trials, but I'm not seeing this overwhelming majority of players claiming they love it, not ingame, and certainly not here (it's mostly just one dozen posters who post a dozen times in every topic).
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Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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But... if I say I enjoyed something, I'm saying that because I enjoyed it. I'm in no way trying to label anyone as anything. It is what it is; I played the trials and I enjoyed them.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I believe the intention was to call a stop to the hostilities. What the "I like raids" people are guilt of, if anything, is presenting me and people like me as social pariahs who are wrong for not liking raids no matter the reasons presented.
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o_o;
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I have to agree with this... For the most part. For all the kvetching about how hard the Ramiel arc was when it first came out, it was and still is one of my favourites, Trapdoor or no Trapdoor. Sure, it's cheap in terms of difficulty, it's chock-full of gimmicks and actually a little short, but I still love it to bits.|
Originally Posted by Haterade
Ramiel's arc was the most fun I've ever had in CoH, in particular the Ouroboros mission where you're in the future and max incarnatededed out. No chance of losing, but the most fun I've ever had.. and I've been here about as long as anyone's been able to be here.
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Even if I'm not interested in Raids, I'll still do that arc every time, for the fun of it if nothing else. Plus, at least the Common Alpha should be reasonably easy to get without raiding.
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I do not like the first mission, however. It's blatant fanservice and that comes off more as patronising than anything else. "We can't show you boobies, but we can show you lots of cleavage and upskirt shots..." I mean: "We can't let you beat up all those signature characters, but we can let you beat up their reflections. That's cool, right?" It's a lot of spectacle with no substance. Beating up Lord Recluse or the Statesman in person is far more satisfying than defeating their astral projections or whatever those are while you cheat shamelessly.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well. Sort of. I mean I get mixed reviews a lot in my SG which is on the huge scale. We will all try it because we are all team players, but I would say that when it comes to this new content, people seem to be less on the fence.|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Hint: it's because they are actually playing the game and not just turning this issue into a soapbox on the forums.
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It's like, people either really really love it, or people really really don't.
I can't give you figures for it, but I know there is a huge aspect of diversity, at least on Virtue where I play, and most of the time people are asking for people to join task forces and not Leagues.
In League defense though, it's not been in game long enough and with going rogue being released "not" that long ago, you still have folks who are not able to experience end game content, which could definately impact the overall love/hate relationship people have with it.
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I don't mean you, specifically, but I put a fair few people on ignore over this specific issue. If I say I dislike their new favourite toy, then it MUST be because I'm doing something wrong, or because I was raised wrong or whatever. It's not just Incarnates, either. I talked about my refusal to get into Inventions Sets recently, and was called "idiotic" and "moronic" for it, and in those exact words.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
But... if I say I enjoyed something, I'm saying that because I enjoyed it. I'm in no way trying to label anyone as anything. It is what it is; I played the trials and I enjoyed them.
o_o; |
What I despise is that there is a crowd of people who claim they've had it up to here, and will use that as an excuse to belittle those who are vocal in their dislikes. The "if you don't like what I like, then there's something wrong with you" is where the problem originates.
Hell, just look at people telling Moo how much he's wrong by re-interpreting things he never said, but were rather "evident" from reading between the lines.
That's not fun.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Then don't raid. Convert shards into the needed threads.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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That then skips over another topic entirely, in that all new post-50 content we've seen is in the form of large-team or multi-team encounters, but I don't want to get into that again.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Then don't raid. Convert shards into the needed threads.
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Suffice it to say that I'll be collecting... Shards, Threads, whatever drops off level 50 enemies, up until I run out of content to do.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What a terrible suggestion.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Then don't raid. Convert shards into the needed threads.
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Actually there has been very little dev commentary on anything to anyone. And I am saying the moderators are letting people get away with a lot of "shut up and suck it," whether blatant, or disguised with inane smilies. See: the second post in this thread.|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Fine Eva, I'll talk to you like a person and not the caricature you have made yourself out to be with this issue.
You say the devs have a "shut up and suck it up" attitude because they aren't talking to YOU personally this issue. What do you want them to say? |
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
I like the trials, but I'm not seeing this overwhelming majority of players claiming they love it, not ingame, and certainly not here (it's mostly just one dozen posters who post a dozen times in every topic).
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I do not like the first mission, however. It's blatant fanservice and that comes off more as patronising than anything else. "We can't show you boobies, but we can show you lots of cleavage and upskirt shots..." I mean: "We can't let you beat up all those signature characters, but we can let you beat up their reflections. That's cool, right?" It's a lot of spectacle with no substance. Beating up Lord Recluse or the Statesman in person is far more satisfying than defeating their astral projections or whatever those are while you cheat shamelessly.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Dismissing everyone who doesn't agree with you seems to be the new developer-endorsed direction for endgame, doesn't it, considering the amount of what is essentially "shut up and suck it" the dev-supporters seem to be getting away with.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World