Thoughts on the difficulty of STF and LRSF
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2011-02-07 12:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I've done it with no tactics lots of times. It just take people that know what their build can do and rock it. The last group I did this on, we had a mash of builds from people I have teamed with before, by luck. We went in with an Ice tank, no temps, no mass hypnosis, no mass insps and we did fine, it took targeting and some tactics.
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Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo
As a pure-redside player these days (no L50 Hero, either) I have never seen the STF so can't pass comment on it, however I've been on a few LRSF's (all successful, often with faceplants galore on the last mish).
It's the one bit of content in the game I don't care for at all. I've done two or three as it's the WST but otherwise I wouldn't touch it. When tactics come down to "stack inspirations, use temp powers" or "you must use mass hypnosis" then I reckon something has gone wrong in the design stages. At least it appears it was semi-fixed in the STF - at least LR doesn't spawn until after the Patrons are defeated. I feel that the last mission of the LRSF could do with a little redesign - have the Phalanx split into two clear aggro groups so you can take on two groups of four (a la the STF). |
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When I recruit for an STF or any TF in general I start with an open call. The first few people to respond have a spot. The remaining 3 spots or so exist to fill out the holes in the existing team. I'm never saying I always need an emp over a stormy or a fire blaster over a peacebringer. I will however exclude a character if it makes the team unbalanced. If I already have a thermal on the team and a handful of damage dealers, I'm excluding everything in search of debuffs. I'm not taking "uber" over average. I'm taking what will make the team more effective.|
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
If, on the other hand, you're speaking to prioritizing some builds/sets and excluding others, I cry foul. For basically the reason above, actually.
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There are people that will take any character and there are people that are hyper specific about what they want. The fact of the matter is the leader is taking the initiative to form the task force and they can make their team however they please. If people take issue with how I (or anyone else) operate....if they are upset because I didn't want to take a petless mastermind along with me then....that person can make their own team and take whoever they want.
Personally, I think both extremes are silly. The hyper specific leaders just don't know enough to improvise and the people that take anyone aren't setting themselves up for success. The STF needs debuffs and damage. Everything after that is just gravy.
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The only problem I would have with an all MM STF is that it would be too easy, and I like a challenge. |
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Reminds me, wouldn't mind doing an All Mastermind LRSF/STF.
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The classes that are commonly scorned are the ones I enjoy on my teams most. I like to throw aside preconceptions. Each new team for me is a unique experience. Thank you fellow players for being special.
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People used to do this on SOs, remember?|
Originally Posted by crayhal
I've seen one where the main melee toons weren't slotted well enough (obvious from their lack of bonuses in the info window.)
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| Also, because of the WST, a lot of unprepared toons just want to join in hopes that the rest of the team will carry them. |
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Agreed!
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Good on ya, mate! Sounded like a bunch of utter jerks anyway.
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------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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True.|
Originally Posted by Indiramourning
The only problem I would have with an all MM STF is that it would be too easy, and I like a challenge.
The classes that are commonly scorned are the ones I enjoy on my teams most. I like to throw aside preconceptions. Each new team for me is a unique experience. Thank you fellow players for being special. |
Hmm an all Hami MM raid...
Actually lets work out the numbers of that
50 MMs.
6 pets apiece (lets not bring in Dark Servant, Gang warfare etc. it'll just get too complicated).
300 pets.
350 things all crowded into that zone.
Would it crash the server?
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How about 50 Thug MMs?|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
True.
Hmm an all Hami MM raid... Actually lets work out the numbers of that 50 MMs. 6 pets apiece (lets not bring in Dark Servant, Gang warfare etc. it'll just get too complicated). 300 pets. 350 things all crowded into that zone. Would it crash the server? |
They all use Gang War on Hami at the same moment.
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That's... actually a much fairer answer than I was expecting. And since it's basically what I and mine do, I have nothing more to say on the matter.
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When I recruit for an STF or any TF in general I start with an open call. The first few people to respond have a spot. The remaining 3 spots or so exist to fill out the holes in the existing team. I'm never saying I always need an emp over a stormy or a fire blaster over a peacebringer. I will however exclude a character if it makes the team unbalanced. If I already have a thermal on the team and a handful of damage dealers, I'm excluding everything in search of debuffs. I'm not taking "uber" over average. I'm taking what will make the team more effective. There are people that will take any character and there are people that are hyper specific about what they want. The fact of the matter is the leader is taking the initiative to form the task force and they can make their team however they please. If people take issue with how I (or anyone else) operate....if they are upset because I didn't want to take a petless mastermind along with me then....that person can make their own team and take whoever they want. Personally, I think both extremes are silly. The hyper specific leaders just don't know enough to improvise and the people that take anyone aren't setting themselves up for success. The STF needs debuffs and damage. Everything after that is just gravy. |
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I always wanted to put together an all MM team for the raid, hover above Hami, and use Assemble the Team to drop all 60 of us on him at once!
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Hmm an all Hami MM raid...
Actually lets work out the numbers of that 50 MMs. 6 pets apiece (lets not bring in Dark Servant, Gang warfare etc. it'll just get too complicated). 300 pets. 350 things all crowded into that zone. Would it crash the server? |
I ran the LRSF this weekend on my Fort, the first time in a long time. The PUG I was on wouldn't be considered optimal other than maybe having a couple rads. We didn't have a stoner or a mind freak to sleep the AV's. We finished it within 40-45 minutes with no serious issues My only issue was my computer wanting to slow load the missions for some reason, but otherwise fine. We had 1-2 people who were familier with the SF, a few more like me, who have ran it before but not recently, and the rest who it was their first time.
Afterwords we decided to do Lady Gray with only a few personal changes, and basically steamrolled through that with no problem.
The STF is a total coin toss to me. Unlike other TFs I feel like the outcome just comes down to whether I lucked out with my team or not. I don't find it very "challenging." It's more like, god I hope my teammates don't turn out to suck. The rest of the game kind of shields you from that for the most part.
In a best case scenario, the STF is sort of boring. In a worst case scenario, it's a meat grinder that waits until you've sunk an hour into it to reveal that your team is hopeless. Usually after a couple of defeats people who are used to sailing through it start quitting and everyone basically tries not to talk to each other for a while. I much prefer the Apex TF to the STF. People getting angry and yelling at each other because the game is just not what I signed up for (I have the message boards for that).
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Hmm... Good point. So now I wonder, is it the leader's job to coach said unprepared players? If so, how would one give instructions without sounding like a total drill sargent? There are some egos out there and it's usually too late when: |
Originally Posted by DSorrow
People used to do this on SOs, remember?
Or people who still keep in mind that the game is balanced for SOs. Unprepared players, on the other hand, do exist. They are those who have no idea how to build their characters (as in, pick key powers) or how to use them. |
Leader: Turn on rooted. It'll help.
Stoner: I don't have it. Is it good?
Leader: ..... Yah. Just pop 4 purples and 2 oranges.
Stoner: I'm out of insp.
D O O M .....
These TFs are funny.
I've been on some PuG STFs in the past week that have been brutal, LRSF runs have been much better an easier. I've found that STF is generally much more taxing because the first few missions are fairly easy. GW tends to break up teams fairly quickly. On the last PUG we tried pulling, several came and we retreated until we go Mako to the boat; at that point we had Mako down to 1/3rd and Scirocco and GW showed up and people dropped team.
On the other hand, the LRSFs have been just steamrolled; our teams have had several VEATs, Corrs, Scrappers and Brutes and stuff has just MELTED. We have had a few aborted LRSFs from wipes, but generally it's been swimmingly fun.
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I've personally have had better luck with STF over LRSF. I like LRSF mind you, it's a fun setup. It feels like it requires far more clockwork alignment of fortune than STF [the 8-AV fight versus the pull/Ghost Widow cheese].
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
These TFs are funny.
I've been on some PuG STFs in the past week that have been brutal, LRSF runs have been much better an easier. I've found that STF is generally much more taxing because the first few missions are fairly easy. GW tends to break up teams fairly quickly. On the last PUG we tried pulling, several came and we retreated until we go Mako to the boat; at that point we had Mako down to 1/3rd and Scirocco and GW showed up and people dropped team. On the other hand, the LRSFs have been just steamrolled; our teams have had several VEATs, Corrs, Scrappers and Brutes and stuff has just MELTED. We have had a few aborted LRSFs from wipes, but generally it's been swimmingly fun. |
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That's not always a good measure. For example- a very well frankenslotted character often won't have much in the way of set bonuses.
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Originally Posted by crayhal
I've seen one where the main melee toons weren't slotted well enough (obvious from their lack of bonuses in the info window.)
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Probably how you'd do it naturally. "Turn on rooted. It'll help." or anything along the lines of that seems like a good way to me. At least that's the kind of stuff I really appreciate when I'm new in a game. As long as you're not purposefully rude it seems fine to me, some people might disagree, but then again they're probably those people who find any bit of criticism a personal attack.|
Originally Posted by crayhal
Hmm... Good point. So now I wonder, is it the leader's job to coach said unprepared players? If so, how would one give instructions without sounding like a total drill sargent?
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| There are some egos out there |
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Stoner: I'm out of insp. D O O M ..... |
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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Good advice. The other piece I'd add is in terms of quantity.......one comment will usually be treated in isolation, but if you do it 10 times, the player is much more likely to just ignore you, or quit. |
Originally Posted by DSorrow
Probably how you'd do it naturally. "Turn on rooted. It'll help." or anything along the lines of that seems like a good way to me. At least that's the kind of stuff I really appreciate when I'm new in a game. As long as you're not purposefully rude it seems fine to me, some people might disagree, but then again they're probably those people who find any bit of criticism a personal attack.
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No matter what, you'll always have players who don't like constructive help and sooner or later someone will get angry. Be the mature one, have a thick skin, and don't make the matter any worse. Some people are simply going to get angry and quit, and responding to them will just make it more uncomfortable for the rest of the team.
I think a lot of the perception of the STF being hard comes from the fact that the players that have been around awhile remember what it was like back before IOs, and Real Numbers, and ParagonWiki. The simple fact that we know how much Defense we currently have and how much you need to softcap against Recluse (75%), as well as absolute certainty as to which tower is the one to destroy first, makes the whole thing pretty easy on most teams.
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Now I'm wondering... if folks used to do this on SOs, how come a lvl 50 SS/shield brute with a set of purples (as evident in all those Ultimate bonuses in the info window) and alpha slotted T2 still can't survive 3 heroes in LRSF? This was the lead brute in the LRSF that my MM was in, and after 5 team wipes in Atlas, we had to call it quits.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
People used to do this on SOs, remember?
Or people who still keep in mind that the game is balanced for SOs. |
If it is possible to do it with SOs, how come a multi-billion, T2 alpha slotted brute can't hold agro?
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The problem isn't with the build. The problem is between the chair and keyboard
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Originally Posted by crayhal
Now I'm wondering... if folks used to do this on SOs, how come a lvl 50 SS/shield brute with a set of purples (as evident in all those Ultimate bonuses in the info window) and alpha slotted T2 still can't survive 3 heroes in LRSF? This was the lead brute in the LRSF that my MM was in, and after 5 team wipes in Atlas, we had to call it quits.
If it is possible to do it with SOs, how come a multi-billion, T2 alpha slotted brute can't hold agro? |
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It has been my experience that the "unprepared" are usually up front about it.|
Originally Posted by crayhal
Hmm... Good point. So now I wonder, is it the leader's job to coach said unprepared players? If so, how would one give instructions without sounding like a total drill sargent? There are some egos out there and it's usually too late when:
Leader: Turn on rooted. It'll help. Stoner: I don't have it. Is it good? Leader: ..... Yah. Just pop 4 purples and 2 oranges. Stoner: I'm out of insp. D O O M ..... |
Unprepared guy: "I've never done this before so I have no idea what to do."
Leader: "No problem, we'll direct you."
Unprepared guy: "Ok, thanks."
Then, you know, you be polite about it and don't call him a noob when he goes the wrong way and wastes 30 valuable seconds of your life fighting something that wasn't strictly necessary.
If your tank doesn't have their mez protection, and hasn't figured out by the time they hit level 45 that mez protection is a good and necessary thing then they are beyond help. Either that or they're PLd, in which case they should go run some "standard" content before tackling the "advanced" stuff.
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Originally Posted by crayhal
Now I'm wondering... if folks used to do this on SOs, how come a lvl 50 SS/shield brute with a set of purples (as evident in all those Ultimate bonuses in the info window) and alpha slotted T2 still can't survive 3 heroes in LRSF? This was the lead brute in the LRSF that my MM was in, and after 5 team wipes in Atlas, we had to call it quits.
If it is possible to do it with SOs, how come a multi-billion, T2 alpha slotted brute can't hold agro? |
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I've had a mixed bag of running the STF this past week, and I won't be missing the PUGing process of it.
Some people just seem to be bad at the game. I've been on plenty of teams which ought to have been OK, not optimal teams, but doable with competent players, but they just had issues.
My first STF of the week was a brilliant speed run done in 32 minutes. It went downhill from there. My last was yesterday which took a miserable 3 hours.
Mark me down as looking forward to Kahn.
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Well, BS is still better if you can back it up! |
Originally Posted by McNum
In my experience, the only difference between elitists and noobs is success. They act pretty similar, and are almost equally annoying.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Hence the "almost equally annoying". Jerks about it or not, you can at least respect some of the things elitists can pull off. Noobs just have the elitist attitude with nothing to back it up.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Well, BS is still better if you can back it up!
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