Discussion: Issue 19: Strike Pack is live!
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American_Valor,
Posted on: 2011-02-01 24:24 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I'm willing to bet the game wasn't 100% Bug free even before this so called "19.5".
I'm even willing to bet that NO MMO is 100% bug free, even ones that rarely ever update like PSU....
There's likely a thousand tiny as heck bugs still out there.
Plus the philosophy of "Fix one thing, break 10 other things" Thus no coding will ever be 100% bug free, game, application, OS, firmware, or whatever it is.
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Right, but some bugs can be prevented from heading live if they aren't rushed from the test server to live due to some artificial schedule set up by the dev's overlords.|
Originally Posted by Mattwo7
I'm willing to bet the game wasn't 100% Bug free even before this so called "19.5".
I'm even willing to bet that NO MMO is 100% bug free, even ones that rarely ever update like PSU.... There's likely a thousand tiny as heck bugs still out there. Plus the philosophy of "Fix one thing, break 10 other things" Thus no coding will ever be 100% bug free, game, application, OS, firmware, or whatever it is. |
If the ones in charge allow the devs to do their jobs, we'd probably see less stupidity like the AE farm that went on for a week, and the recent crash due to rushing Issue 19.5 to live.
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I'm not too crazy about the notion of the Notice of the Well being earned through low level task forces. The other rewards (double merits, the xp bonus) are fine, but why are we doing content that doesn't utilize the incarnate abilities (or even the full extent of our powers) to gain more access to incarnate abilities? The Well notices our power when we're not even using all of it?
To top it off, folks that have been doing the WSF will be unlocking their very rare alpha tier with Sister Psyche or Silver Mantis. Just doesn't seem right...
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Actually, it is perfectly right and thematic for the superhero comic genre for something like this to happen. Think about it for a second. You're denied access to the best of your powers as a player and as a character. In game system terms it's purely systematic to ensure that the TF isn't too easy even with the new exemplaring rules.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I'm not too crazy about the notion of the Notice of the Well being earned through low level task forces. The other rewards (double merits, the xp bonus) are fine, but why are we doing content that doesn't utilize the incarnate abilities (or even the full extent of our powers) to gain more access to incarnate abilities? The Well notices our power when we're not even using all of it?
To top it off, folks that have been doing the WSF will be unlocking their very rare alpha tier with Sister Psyche or Silver Mantis. Just doesn't seem right... |
In terms of your CHARACTER, however, things are quite different. Your character has just begun tapping into his highest potential, and is still eager to explore that new potential. An opportunity comes along to do something HUGE and it's that much easier for your character now. Then, your character WILLINGLY enters a situation where they cannot use their newest ability, sacrificing their ability to outperform the average superhero in order to help wipe out a problem that should really be beneath their notice...
A character who willingly restricts their abilities to a lesser level than they usually perform in order to render aid to someone that they could easily simply ignore while staying superior in their own mind? A character that has only recently begun to tap into that new potential?
The well knows your character the second you begin walking the path of the Incarnate. As you begin drawing more power through your connection to the well, the well takes more notice of you. To then sacrifice that power temporarily, to temporarily and voluntarily stop using what the well has granted you to help someone resolve a situation that SHOULD be beneath you and thus not even worth your time? That gets the attention of a supernatural entity.
Look at it from the well's perspective: "You set aside the extra abilities I've given you to help her with that small problem? You're more interesting than I thought." (Favor of the Well granted.)
To put it another way: Two known fencers of disparate skill decide to have a friendly match. In order to make things interesting, the more skilled fencer decides to handicap himself by only using his off-hand. Even with this handicap, he manages to beat the other fencer, earning the applause of the audience for overcoming an opponent in an honorable fashion after ensuring that the fight would be interesting for everyone involved. The well is the audience, and your character is the more skilled fencer.
I have a problem on doing the sister TF or any lowbie tf as part of the WTF, the new currency in the game is shards, and as far as i know , on a lowbie,none will drop. but on a positive note, i have a few char that doing the WTF as a lowbie will be a lot easier than the STF.
ok tin foil hat time, i wonder if the DEVS are doing a bit of forcing of data. by having a low lvl tf be the WTF. they can say on a report that even with new powers, the users are still doing the lower lvl content. or some such reporting.
ok tin foil hat off
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Shards are not the new currency of the game. The new currency of the game is incarnate Components/Salvage...of which shards are but ONE piece.
Shards drop from every level 50+ enemy an Incarnate fights, but shards are not the only thing an Incarnate needs. Some short-sighted people seem to THINK that Shards are the most important part of the new system when they are, in fact, the least. An Incarnate needs a GRAND TOTAL of only 48 shards to make a Very Rare boost. That's 32 shards to upgrade two notice of the well into a Favor of the Well, and 16 to upgrade two common salvage into Uncommon salvage for the Uncommon boost. That's it, no more and no less than 48 shards are NEEDED.
Every component can be gained without using a single shard except to upgrade a component into a better one. MOST Incarnates will need 52 shards total to avoid having to run a Cathedral of Pain for the Penumbra of Rularuu, but that doesn't negate the simple FACT that every component barring ones that can only be obtained by upgrading can be gotten from existing content without spending a single shard.
Shards are basic lego bricks, the other components are the special pieces used to make a unique design. Shards play a bit part in Incarnate Advancement, the main actors are the OTHER components.
Also, it's far more efficient for an intelligent player to run the TF's that will give them the Incarnate Salvage they need than to grind the LGTF/ITF for 'moar sharddddzzzzz' but nobody seems to see that. Run a speed STF, ITF, and Khan, and you have the components for a Nerve Boost as well as some spare shards. Run the TF's that give you the salvage you need and you won't have to waste shards making salvage when you can instead save shards for upgrading your Notices.
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Wasn't the reason we didn't get the Incarnate System in GR because we didn't have enough content to play with as an incarnate? I feel that going back and doing non-incarnate level SF/TF is just the thing Posi wanted to avoid.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I'm not too crazy about the notion of the Notice of the Well being earned through low level task forces. The other rewards (double merits, the xp bonus) are fine, but why are we doing content that doesn't utilize the incarnate abilities (or even the full extent of our powers) to gain more access to incarnate abilities? The Well notices our power when we're not even using all of it?
To top it off, folks that have been doing the WSF will be unlocking their very rare alpha tier with Sister Psyche or Silver Mantis. Just doesn't seem right... |
I don't mind doing the few high level TF/SFs we have for notices, merits, xp and other stuff. I actually leveled my Dom from 44 to level 50 in one day of LEGIT gameplay. I do mind doing low level TF/SF for incarnate plunder...it doesn't make sense?!
I am fine with teaming, I first thought that it was going to be hard to do but it isn't hard to get on a team and roll with a few people. On Champion, I roll with pretty much a close knit group of people that run the Hami Raids and other high level SF's. It's become second nature to run a LGTF, LRSF and ITF...those are the only three I've run and since the start of the alpha slot I've run an ITF or LGTF daily for my shards and components.
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So id the LRSF still the SF of the week? or is there a new one?
It changes on Tuesday.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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What is with all this HAET over the lowbie TF/SFs being recommended as the WST? Half of the problem with the endgame at this point is that it is a grind-cycle of the same five or six things over and over again (STF, LRSF, ITF, LGTF, Hami, MS Raid, rinse, repeat). Why not give an (extra) incentive to do some lower content? Let's get the Moonfire and Ouroboros TFs a WST! Why not? It's not like you aren't getting rewards one way or another (merits, Inf/prestige, recipe drops, etc).
OH NOES WHERES MAI SHARDS!! Whatever. It's not a race to the T4s.
Meanwhile, the Psyche TF and the Mantis SF give mildly disproportionately high merit rewards than their difficulty and time sink really justify, so why complain about running them?
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I would suspect that I am not alone in my dislike for Exemplaring. |
Originally Posted by twelfth
What is with all this HAET over the lowbie TF/SFs being recommended as the WST?
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A real incentive to do lower content would be to modify how the exemplar system works - keep the "lessening enhancement" effect that keeps powers balanced against lower enemies, but allow players to keep all powers and abilities acquired regardless of level. And let them keep Incarnate powers (equally scaled).
I bet that would get a lot more people running lower level task forces.
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I don't like exemplaring either.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I would suspect that I am not alone in my dislike for Exemplaring.
A real incentive to do lower content would be to modify how the exemplar system works - keep the "lessening enhancement" effect that keeps powers balanced against lower enemies, but allow players to keep all powers and abilities acquired regardless of level. And let them keep Incarnate powers (equally scaled). I bet that would get a lot more people running lower level task forces. |
I have about 8 level 50s (actually more if I think about it, just some I don't really play). I got these characters to rare incarnate:
Widow (Musculature)
Plant/Earth/Fire Dom (Cardiac)
Necro/Dark/Soul MM (Spiritual)
DS/Pain/Cold MM (Spiritual)
Elec/Invuln/Energy Brute (Spiritual)
Energy/Energy/Force Blaster (Spiritual)
I have a Huntsman at 40 who I want to get to 50 for incarnate, and a DP/Dark/Soul Corr at 50 who has an uncommon, but not in a rush to get her to rare.
If I exemplar, it's generally on the widow (who has her fair share of sub-50 sets). She's my badge hunter, and temp power collector, but I also do almost all of that solo when I can, and just ghost as much as possible.
If you're wondering what that has to do with anything, these characters are all ones I play at 50. These characters are pushing into incarnate. Working on improving their performance at max level. They have the latest incarnate stuff, level 50 IOs, accolades, and temp powers to maximize their performance at the high end.
And then I'm asked to exemplar where none of that stuff applies. In order to advance as a level 50. Which I'm exemplaring away from anyway. Which I find really dumb.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Farming them is more like it. Critters and powers aren't balanced that way. cf: old school Family farms.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I would suspect that I am not alone in my dislike for Exemplaring.
A real incentive to do lower content would be to modify how the exemplar system works - keep the "lessening enhancement" effect that keeps powers balanced against lower enemies, but allow players to keep all powers and abilities acquired regardless of level. And let them keep Incarnate powers (equally scaled). I bet that would get a lot more people running lower level task forces. |
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I've always wondered why so many people do not think of exemplaring when they invest in level 50 Io sets, when level 30-ish yield similar results with a larger breadth of availability.
I'd be interested in seeing the overlap between the "wait to 50 for IO's, buy level 50 IO's" and those that cringe at the idea of exemplaring down for the strike target. Probably not a huge number, but I wonder if it's a contributing factor.
But that is a tangent. Instead, another (possibly tangential) thought: with the masses of players doing TF's/SF's, I wonder if the devs will use the times from WST runs in merit reward readjustments? The larger pool of numbers to grab from seems a god opportunity for reward standardization.
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Agreed. If the player scales up in ability but the enemies don't, there is little to no challenge. There's a reason you don't see certain mobs above a particular level. They just weren't designed to be fought as a high level enemy, and wishing your bonuses, etc to scale down would take a lot more work to balance than just simply removing the restrictions.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Farming them is more like it. Critters and powers aren't balanced that way. cf: old school Family farms.
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These lower level task forces are easy enough as they are currently designed, and as the player scales down currently, especially with the +5 level cap for powers. Why make them even easier? I've never seen a complaint about them being hard. Generally it's because they're tedious, which is definitely not the same thing.
If your reason for wanting to add Incarnate "levels" of power to your character is to be able to roll through lower level content (like you can't already), why bother with the system at all?
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I think that's as closed minded as only wanting teams that want a tank, buffbot, damage, debufs, etc. If someone is forming a team and wants debuffs and my Cold, TA, Rad, Son, etc wants the TF, I'll get in. If someone just wants anything, I'll join w/what I got and then offer to switch if we're lacking. If some wants only IO'ed to the gills, level shifted toons for a speed run, well, I got those too. I'm not going to turn down uber teams (wanna-be or no) any more than random PuGs.
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Originally Posted by Hube02
For anyone having a problem getting on a team because the leader is looking for a specific AT or power set, avoid that team. Quite frankly if I see "STF Forming pst with AT and ....." I ignore them. I'm there to have fun, not to stand stand around for an hour while the leader puts together what he/she thinks is the bet possible team.
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It's changing tomorrow to the 5thTF.
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Originally Posted by Sam_Sneed
So id the LRSF still the SF of the week? or is there a new one?
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Level 50 sets are more readily available. Also, if you're more concerned about enhancement bonuses than set bonuses, then three slots of Red Fortune Def, Def/End, Def/Rec at level 50 gets 54.16 def, at level 30, the same slotting yields only 46.32 def. That amount of difference, on a shield tanker, represents about 1% defense. 1% defense, for a tanker, is actually rather important. I would rather have the 1% defense than the set bonuses. Until I drop below level 32, I get that 54.16 defense. Now, both the level 50 25.5 def and the level 30 20.9 def are greater than 20%, so they both get reduced when exemplaring between 21 and 32, so the level 50 will continue to have greater efficiency. The other defense bonuses are less than 20%, so they don't get reduced until level 20.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
I've always wondered why so many people do not think of exemplaring when they invest in level 50 Io sets, when level 30-ish yield similar results with a larger breadth of availability.
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It's not that people don't think of exemplaring, it's just that normally if you're exemplaring, you're on a team, and you don't need to be at peak performance capability.
That said, you could have an alternate build designed to have peak exemplaring capabilities too.
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This is, perhaps, a reasonable RP justification but the mechanics just don't mesh with it. Holding back is usually done to create a level playing field which, for the most part, has never existed in this game. Teams will run rough shod over most enemies, and squishies will be laid low with one or two blows. A few trips to the hospital and it no longer feels like I'm holding back; it feels like I've taken a step back in my journey.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Actually, it is perfectly right and thematic for the superhero comic genre for something like this to happen. Think about it for a second. You're denied access to the best of your powers as a player and as a character. In game system terms it's purely systematic to ensure that the TF isn't too easy even with the new exemplaring rules.
... Look at it from the well's perspective: "You set aside the extra abilities I've given you to help her with that small problem? You're more interesting than I thought." (Favor of the Well granted.) |
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Originally Posted by Shadow Wail
Wasn't the reason we didn't get the Incarnate System in GR because we didn't have enough content to play with as an incarnate? I feel that going back and doing non-incarnate level SF/TF is just the thing Posi wanted to avoid.
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Originally Posted by twelfth
What is with all this HAET over the lowbie TF/SFs being recommended as the WST? Half of the problem with the endgame at this point is that it is a grind-cycle of the same five or six things over and over again (STF, LRSF, ITF, LGTF, Hami, MS Raid, rinse, repeat). Why not give an (extra) incentive to do some lower content? Let's get the Moonfire and Ouroboros TFs a WST! Why not? It's not like you aren't getting rewards one way or another (merits, Inf/prestige, recipe drops, etc).
OH NOES WHERES MAI SHARDS!! Whatever. It's not a race to the T4s. Meanwhile, the Psyche TF and the Mantis SF give mildly disproportionately high merit rewards than their difficulty and time sink really justify, so why complain about running them? |
Secondly, some people just don't enjoy exemplaring as we see here...
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't like exemplaring either.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
I've always wondered why so many people do not think of exemplaring when they invest in level 50 Io sets, when level 30-ish yield similar results with a larger breadth of availability.
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Please try not to assume that my personal issue with the STF and LRSF is that I can't complete it due to being teamed with bad players.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Your unfortunate enough to team with some really bad players, then.
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I don't like the idea of the STF/LRSF for a number of reasons.
One, it's divisive and encourages negative feeling in the community. You get the subset of players who are picky about their teams, and the other players who then deride them for being stupid and picky (with the implication that they are then more superior.) You get the subset of players who rant or rage because they can't complete or win it, and then you get the other players who jump on them for being unlucky, uncoordinated or unwilling to do all the other strategies they suggest (again with the implication that they are more elite and uber.) Blame-calling, jealousy, being impatient with others because they're not like you.
Personally, I find this all very ugly and not enjoyable. Reading the back-and-forth leaves me with a lot of ill-feeling and not-having-any-fun-ness.
Two, their inherent design requires a lot of leadership, responsibility stress and team coordination like herding cats within the TF itself.
Sorry, I'm playing CoH for fast furious fun combat with smoothly integrating group synergies that don't require much words, and do not result in total party wipe if one or two people fail at their individual gameplay.
I don't really find huddling together in a group discussing intricate strategies pre-combat, then executing, and if someone doesn't execute properly, wiping, reviving, re-huddle, re-plan, re-execute exceedingly fun. I find the amount of responsibility involved in leading to be very tiring and draining and not something I want to do very often, and if I wait for someone else to lead, then my time is held hostage by their skill or lack of. I could be playing a real raid treadmill MMO if I found those particular activities thrilling.
Three, their design exposes and almost requires abusing a lot of the game's broken or iffy-working systems. Softcap defense, stacked inspirations, leashing Recluse by flying into funny corners, purple triangle AVs with big bags of hitpoints, -regen, perma-dom mass sleep, stacking appropriate type resists to counter this and that...
I dunno. On the one hand, I can respect that yes, it makes sense that one of the hardest challenges in the game should require extreme game knowledge to figure out the best counters or appropriate optimization of one's available resources.
On the other hand, it makes me twitch a little that the solutions are so extreme, and that there are so many of them stacked together in one TF that a savvy TF runner would be smart to pre-build an optimized team that has counters for what GW can do, what Recluse can do, etc. (This feeds back into point one, which encourages people to become picky, and the resultant negative feeling.)
Or a flexible TF runner will end up doing a huddle to build strategies on the fly (which feeds back into point one, which results in people feeling superior/elite and smug and feeds into my point two of un-enjoyment, which is when I start thinking, why I am putting up with raiding-style strategies and requisite group/time investment in a game that I came to in order to escape that style of gameplay? And all for what? Loot. *sighs* I picked this game initially because it didn't have any leet loot to chase.)
Anyhow, Tuesday and a change of WST can't come soon enough. I don't even mind exemplaring when Sister Psyche comes along.
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Has it been explained exactly when the clock ticks over from one WST to another ? Midnight Eastern, midnight Pacific ? does it require maint to do ? While this may not be relevant to Americans, it certainly is to those of us who play when most sensible Americans are asleep.
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I'd assume, if it didn't happen automatically at midnight or 3am Eastern (midnight Pacific), it would go instead at 9am Eastern/6am Pacific (37 minutes from now), at the end of the normal maintenance window.
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Errr isn't maintenance on Thursdays? |
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
I'd assume, if it didn't happen automatically at midnight or 3am Eastern (midnight Pacific), it would go instead at 9am Eastern/6am Pacific (37 minutes from now), at the end of the normal maintenance window.
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I think we are forgetting the main point here, we COULD have NOT had 19.5 and had to wait for the incarnate trials for our rare's and very rare bonuses, but the TF's are an alternate and earlier way of achieving them. Issue 19 could have been left running on the servers with us just accumulating shards until Issue 20 is released.
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Why should the well give a crap out some lowbie task force and if so then why don't our "new enhanced abilities" work at lower levels? What we suddenly gain power and then lose it when sking down for lower level tasks? Makes me not want to sk down ever.
First of all, I’m told I can rationalize just about anything, so, people that know me avoid that part of me, but here goes. We do lowbie TF/SF to keep a hand in to how the “little people” live… in order to help them or squash them… so as to not forget our roots.
K, now that that little mental exercise in justification is done, here’s my take on it. There are a few reasons I can make out.
1-Costs
It’s cost reduction. In my wife’s soap, when a character dies, the soap doesn’t always have the money to pay the actors that left the show to come back for a day, reprise their roles, and show up to mourn. So, there’s tons of “Their plane / train / etc… was delayed.” Or, they speak about them off panel as if they had been there. “Did you see Aunt Julie in the back? She was so sad she couldn’t stay for the reception but at least she made the funeral.” Yeah, we never saw her once.
Here in CoH, it’s a way to keep costs down so that instead of inventing a progressively difficult set of TF for each Alpha Stage, we revisit old Task Forces, add a reward at the end, and the coding change was minimal.
2-Incentive to group
Having a badge for redoing a WST means that (some) players won’t just do it once, and go away. Those with Badge OCD like me will redo a tough task force, just to get 1 pip towards that mondo huge 50 TF badge. Sure many would help out of the goodness of their hearts. But having an OCD-Carrot will motivate some even more. Plus, there are other rewards for the WST, so, people in that level range will be motivated as well. Since one of them is EXP, it means when the target is under 45-50, those people will group for the exp, while us incarnates group for the drop.
3-Extend the life of old content
I mean, how often is there a Transcendence or Quartermain TF being run? Or some other rare one on your specific server? Presumably, some, but not all, of those “never run” TF will get their turn, and people that want to experience them will have a shot, and hopefully the ones that hate them but not enough to avoid them as a WST won’t grumble about it TOO much to their peers.
Yes, it’s a little heavy handed, but, whatever it takes to keep costs down, players playing together, and keep the game going, is good by me. And speaking personally, on the week(s) that there’s a TF or SF I can’t stand, I’ll skip, play alts, or do something else than CoH.
I actually hope there is a point for doing WST after the I20 trials, because I’d love that 50 TF badge. But if not, oh well, I’ll file it under “I guess I won’t get them” badges, like some of the PvP ones. Sure I’d have preferred fresh new Incarnate content for 19.5, but considering so many expansions are free, I’m ok with this.