Lycaeus
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Posts
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Joined
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Actually, the kind of endgame I was looking for was an unfolding episodic story told Issue by Issue like an overarcing campaign. They would be told with story arcs, that scale to both solo and team sizes, and let us visit all the unexplored interesting bits in the lore, and see wild landscapes the moon, underwater, Rikti Earth, things like that.
Praetoria for 20-30 or 30-40, or 40-50 would have suited me just fine. Not just Praetoria 1-20 and some shoehorning all our loose unrelated TFs into a gigantic more game than world metagame of repeat to get a game currency to unlock more levels of power and heres two scenario trials that are ostensibly set in Praetoria, but since you zone in, they could be set anywhere really, and given a different skin, no one would know. It just feels disconnected.
Back to endgame. The endgame would involve a lot of choice of preferred difficulty (http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2009/09/...ge-levels.html). Normal (or easy) mode should be soloable by most (or all.) Hard mode would involve greater rewards and provide coordinated teams with commensurate challenges. Mob layout would differ from the norm perhaps different numbers spawning, or a random team size picked per map, and bosses might use some of the gimmicky tricks of the more standard MMOs. Same story, different levels of challenge, different rewards.
Encouraging players to take up the challenge, meanwhile, I think, boils down to crafty design of certain semantics and interesting or encouraging, not punishing or frustrating, failure states. If I have a 5 stage objective to achieve, and I only complete 2 or 3 stages, it feels like failure, especially if MISSION FAILED is splashed across my screen to reinforce this. If the same 5 stages are positioned as complete stage 1-3 on normal mode, and I get a reward commensurate with my participation, and 4-5 are bonus or hard modes... then if I do not complete 4-5, I still feel all right with a partial success, and hope to strive for the full completion next time. Especially if I will get a shiny bonus, badge, accomplishment, loot drop, reward out of being so leet as to finish it on difficult, hard, expert or nightmare modes.
In another browser game that I wont mention by name, failure brings on some really interesting states, in which story avenues can develop, even though there is a time delay penalty to reinforce that you dont want to fail too often. Another MMO allows one to lurk by ones corpse and self-resurrect the first time very quickly, diminishing the frustration of the failure state. I would not be fond of an endgame that would return a lot of repeated failure states with little feedback and devolve into people playing the blame game with each other. -
It is about the journey, not the destination to me. Except my definitions of journey and destinations may differ from other peoples.
For me, journey refers to the immediate emotional experience I have with the game when I log on and play every session, rather than a chase of a reward as destination.
Is the story and the rationale for my character hitting things interesting? Am I experiencing little storylets of beginning, middle and end with interesting characters? Can I immerse myself in the situation and pretend how my different superheroes would react, even if I dont outwardly RP? Are the enemies Im facing interesting (visually different, or reacting in tactically different ways)? Is the setting Im in for this mission interesting (visually again, or conceptually or tactically)? Is the actual flow and feel of the combat smooth and thrilling and exciting? Are there fun opportunities for team synergies? Can I make interesting choices and decisions in the course of play, be it where to spend my game time for the day, what to do, or even which powers to appropriately use?
All of the above empower me and make me feel like the journey is FUN.
Conversely, if I am repeating motions and actions that I have always repeated, or can predict with my eyes closed where the enemy is and what it will do, it threatens to become boring (though my tolerance for repetitive combat grind is quite high as I can fall into a combat zen state.)
If my decisions become funneled by design and fueled by negative discomforting emotions to catch up with the Joneses, or feel obligated to do certain things I dont enjoy in order to unlock future new content, eg. interacting with a mass of teeming players to coordinate them via chat or voice in some fashion to accomplish a goal, earning a piece of supreme loot in order to get more powerful so that I can see the new content, earning more currency in order to get a recipe in order to craft another object in order to
Yeah, I start feeling a little led around by the nose, or a rat in a Skinner box, and my instinctive impulse once I recognize the manipulation is to stop. Because the journey (and it is a journey, of progression even if its a boring one for me personally) is not fun for me.
I happen to be an odd duck mix of Explorer-Achiever who has burnt out with raid-like grinds long ago. Im fine with there being a destination, or an attractive goal to reach. Thats my Achiever side speaking up, asking for a nice gradual sense of progression to a cool reward. But my ever-watchful Explorer, having slapped my Achiever silly some time ago when it got loose and turned me into a rabid greedy selfish monster, now insists that the journey to get to the destination must be enjoyable. If Im not having fun, the destination is not worth suffering through a lousy journey to reach. -
Quote:Actually, I wrote the last two posts venting off steam from spending three hours on Beta Test trying to put together a random PUG team (not just a powergamer forumite team, which was tests 1-4) to test out the BAF for the seventh time, in an effort to produce a bit more data and feedback.Originally Posted by TonyV
Or put another way, just because you don't like the concept of end-game raid-type systems, I think it's extremely prejudicial to make up your mind without even trying it that you're going to hate our developer's implementation of an end-game raid-type system and that it is so irredeemably bad that there's literally nothing in it that could change your mind.
The thing that really drove me emotionally bonkers was trying to hand-build a league and queue. More frustration than fun for me. Others might be fine with it - more power to them.
In the process of testing, while providing copious feedback and possible suggestions to adapt and implement an end-game raid-type system for additional inclusivity, I started asking myself whether I really felt it was personally fun to grind repeatedly for a reward - something I avoided the 800lb gorilla for when it was new, and came to CoH for something different.
CoH's drive for loot and endgame development has been causing a great deal of cognitive dissonance for me personally. And I eventually hit a stage of crisis - possibly more than a little denial in there facing the possibility that I might have to stop my subscription, CoH and Paragon Studios has inspired that much brand loyalty - worked it out that it was currently not very fun for me, and figured out a solution I could live with in the process of venting.
It's a little unfortunate that it took the OP's post of "preparing" for future content to spark it off. Sorry about that. But hey, it's the general discussion forums, it can probably tolerate a few swerves of subject.
I'm better now. CoH might move towards more inclusivity and content that I can anticipate, thus justifying my subscription - and my criteria for 'move' is really very loose, some producer's letters, a few announcements that there might be other stuff coming up. My patience is generally glacial (until three hours of doing nothing much broke it good.
)
Or it might not. In which case, I have come to hit acceptance that I can stop CoH (meaning cancel its subscription - wow, never done that before, first time for everything), go do other stuff, and come back or not as the case may be.
It's just that once you stop and move on, it takes quite a bit to entice you to come back. We'll see. -
Quote:That's fine. But it's a wound caused by items that were knowingly designed by the devs knowing that some of their players would run into it and get hurt.Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Bolded part is a self-inflicted wound.
You can try to get your driver's license, but if you willfully choose not to prepare for it, you are doomed to fail.
Presumably, they are betting that enough players will shrug it off as a flesh wound, stand up again, and learn how to clamber around the obstacle.
Now the manner in which they encourage and slowly offer help and assistance for those who are having trouble to get around it, will affect the number of players who would put up with the obstacle being there in the first place.
Too abruptly, too dismissively, and one is liable to get players who decide that the meadow they originally picked to play in, is now full of falling boulders from the sky getting in their way, and deciding to head off to greener pastures.
The key to sustainability and profit for the devs is to balance this out so that they manage to retain more than they chase away.
I have stated what I would personally be content with in order to remain. You have stated by your replies that you are fine with their current point of difficulty incline. What we don't know are the feelings and attitudes of the numerous that never make it onto the forums to share their POVs. A proper conversation and discussion on the boards might coax more out of the woodwork.
It's a balancing act for the devs, and the more that share, the more feedback they will get along with the datamines and other evidences they are presumably using for their decisions.
Or then again it might not, and just lead to locked threads and a mod headache. That's a perceptible difference in community now too, that might have an impact for some people's decisions to stay or leave. -
I tried Kahn and Cuda for the first time over this weekend. (Wasn't around for I19.)
Kahn is nothing. I'd agree with Eva_Destruction's classification of it (see the BAF feedback threads). Many missions are easy to sneak. The temp power goes to all members in the zone of one mission. So you just need one person on the ball enough to use it - and on my second Kahn ever, I was the one who re-used my first Kahn's gun after watching the other 7 team members beat away at something that was spamming invulnerable messages for a minute. One zap (and there are 10 uses), badabing, vulnerable. No team coordination required, just one sharper than average person.
The only thing cheesy about the Reichsmann TFs is the part where the mission nav says "Defeat Reichsmann" and he's really invulnerable, so you have to give up, go to mission exit, and wait for the team leader to presumably go talk to the TF contact. No one in the team ever explains that, they just assume everyone knows what to do. Gimmicky. But learnable without words. All I had to do was watch what everyone else did for my first Kahn.
Since Kahn is a 5 AV fight, you have your standard 'broken' AV issues coming into play. Purple triangles and if you don't have -regen in some form, you're in for trouble. (Big bag of hitpoints with insane regen syndrome.) That's probably the cause of all the people having Kahn issues, not having enough people who know anything about -regen on the team. Since I'm allergic to this point, I have made it an issue to always bring my dark def for the first times to anything involving an AV, so that I know there's at least one source of guaranteed -regen. :P
I liked that there were at least two possible solutions to this fight. Both my Kahns just unleashed on Reichsmann and ignored the damage from the other AVs being released. We had a tank/scrapper and one or two other players who just taunted off the damage from the other AVs for both times. Between some huddle AoE heals, and the odd death-vengeance-rez, Reichs went down, then the other AVs in whatever-was-closest fashion. I have heard that other teams will deal with the other AVs as they are being released. Whatever works.
Basic criteria of Kahn: An AV-killing-capable team. This is generally quite low requirements for any TF content, and low coordination/leadership moments required.
Finished in 34 minutes and 41 minutes (the second time was a little less speed-y in nature because I think we had less players who had done it before and were sneak-capable to handle all the glowies in interim missions.) 30 merits is pretty high an award for this.
I'd throw it in at an ITF and LGTF level. Multiple ways to complete the missions, low coordination required. Pretty darned fun. One of the few times I have seen a multiple simultaneous AV fight and not winced in pain or not wanted to do it anymore. (ITF by the way is brute forced most of the time now. Teams just fight Rommy three times. Screw the coordination required for pulling and separating the Nicti. But one could still do it if the pile-on-the-damage method didn't work.)
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Barracuda on the other hand. Wow. The AVs were a little tougher in this one, but as long as you lead them into the machine in a controlled fashion, and have an AV-killing-capable team, the patrons were not too much trouble. We had a /poison mm, /ice corr and a rad, so no buff/debuff and -regen issues there, the patron AVs popped fairly quickly, imo. Reichsmann here on the other hand is a gimmick fight that requires medium to high team leadership coordination moments in theory.
The good news is that there is a brute force method for low leadership-player coordination teams. We went by this route because we got smoked by the seemingly endless ambushes. Our stalker was trying to fire off his temp power, but got interrupted. Our controller did manage to fire off his electric fences red hold at some point. My dom did not because of first time inexperience and trying to locate the one usable temp power out of 5 on a full listing of temps/vet powers while in a room full of angry ambushes and Reichsmann. We didn't discuss anything beyond a vague assumption that the mm should use his temp power, and the stalker apparently had some power that would hold/kill the ambushes (a little technically incorrect there after I went to read Paragonwiki about it.)
Had to rez and fight our way through them until the ambushes stopped, after which, Reichs was doable (our one MM presumably was on the ball enough to use his temp power.) He spent maybe two seconds trying to recharge in his machine before he came back, and then he died. Eventually, after punching him for a long time.
Total time we took was either 1h 15min or 1h 50 mins. I forget the back, but I did remember the front number. For 20 merits. Wow. Can you say mis-balanced time-reward? No wonder everybody and their mother is doing Kahn instead of Cuda, except for villains with no choice. I do need to add that even if the merits were adjusted the other way around, I still think more people would repeat Kahn. Simply because the level of coordination required is low. Few people want to step up to lead.
I admit to being keen enough to see what a proper execution of the temp power theoretical synergy would look like in practice. From reading up the temp powers, it looks like the control ATs should activate the hold, the corruptor types activate the dust devils shortly after (our corr activated his while fighting Reichs after the ambushes were cleared. They looked pretty. Did nothing.) While the dust devils keep the aggro occupied, stalker triggers his stealth power and at least one person should get through to the Failsafe trigger (where the hell was it, I wonder!). Hit that, badabing, all the ambushes who were currently held in that timeframe should collapse and die. Refocus on Reichs, and get the MM to use his temp (whenever the appropriate time was supposed to be.)
But you know what that takes, right? Medium raid-like leadership and player coordination. You won't need the macro'ed barked orders, but you would have to stop the team, explain the strat, and hope they listen and execute perfectly. If not, it's brute force for you. The fighting through the tunnel ambushes were actually quite amusing after we got our act together (and one of the rare times I could play with bonfire on my fire/ dom) and we got quite a few Incarnate shards bonded out of it.
I'd classify this one just above ITF/LGTF, possibly around Tin Mage/Apex level of difficulty (a bit more explanation and ordered coordination for perfect execution of Cuda, less pre-prep needed in terms of alpha slotting and less dodging reflxes required), just a bit lower than STF/LRSF. -
And what would you advise players who cannot or will not or choose not to prepare for this future content?
Sorry, it's not meant for you? Just quit until stuff for you gets developed, if ever? Hardy har, I can do it, so it doesn't bother me. If you -just- tried, you can do it, really! Here I'll take you!
(Without acknowledging some people don't have the capability, the time, or the will to grind repeatedly on content or systems they don't enjoy. A PvPer could use the same argument. Lol, I can PvP. You guys are wusses. If you just bought more IOs, chose your powers correctly, keybinded properly and got better reflexes, you can do it too! Without acknowledging that some people have no interest in getting better at it, period.)
There was an old argument for loot once that maintained IOs would be optional and SOs would still be sufficient. We have long gone tumbling past that slippery slope to the point where everyone "worth anything" is at least franken-slotting. Those who can't have already been getting whittled out by something as simple as Trapdoor (which can be brute forced with 4 lucks and lots of reds - I did this, I didn't have the patience to play with his endless clones) and it's getting worst from there.
I've supported the game without a break in my subscription for 7 years since I joined in Nov/Dec 2004. I have taken numerous breaks to prevent burnout, but my subscription has been maintained because I supported what the devs were doing to cater to all groups, solo, duos, small groups, large teams, and experimenting with innovative solutions and systems.
I have to say I'm very disappointed with the current trend (from Inventions loot onwards) and it is finally heading to a point of crisis for me personally. This isn't a snap decision, it's been going on for months. I will be staying on till April 18 to show that I don't mind the loyalty bribe of the pack. I will likely buy the Animal Pack to show support for development in that direction, of vanity costume microtransactions. There are still two months for things to change, to at least announce I21 or I22 plans that might cater to the player subsets that are currently not being addressed by I20 and indicate an inclusive, customization-friendly direction for CoH to go in.
After which, if nothing changes for the foreseeable future (six months on), I think it's time for me to cancel and let the raid-loving group pay subscription fees and development costs for the kind of content I'd prefer. -
Quote:That pretty much sums up my whole reaction to the letter. Easier group formation, the equivalent of a raid UI to smooth out coordination. As usual, CoH reveals itself to be on the forefront of good ideas - Warhammer pioneered it, Rift is doing it well at the moment, Guild Wars 2 is hopefully on the bandwagon, CoH has the core combat structure to succeed where holy trinity reliant games tend to meltdown because a few people failing = wipe for all the group.Originally Posted by Leandro
OH HECK YES. GIMME.
I suspect the wisdom of crowds will surprise those who think that soloists cannot coordinate. The more people you throw in, the more likely that you'll get a critical mass of folks who can stabilize and organize the whole group. Just please don't make it too unforgiving. Not the first round of Incarnate trials. Save those for the toppest of top tier please. -
Great stuff. More communication the merrier!
Please do keep it up, and dare I say I like frequent structured communication better than the odd redname posting cryptic remarks now and then (though that is fun too, from time to time.)
Reptile, lizard, dinosaur, scales, dragon, shark and aquatic would be sweet concepts to add in another pack down the road, whatever it gets called in the end.
And I really like the inclusion of all the goodies - costume change emotes, auras, a power, etc. into the Animal Pack to make it even more attractive. -
Quote:Speaking only for myself as well, you're not the only one. The exact same things run through my mind in all of Nethergoat's posts in this thread.Originally Posted by Nethergoat
And speaking only for myself, a game design trend line drifting toward industry norms is cause for concern. I play this game because I like this game, the more it hews to MMO orthodoxy the less appealing it becomes.
And yes, of course it's a question of degree. It may very well be that we are the only two players of CoH that feel this way, in which case it would be economic suicide to take our feedback too seriously. It may very well be more commercially profitable to create an orthodox MMO clone with endgame treadmill at the cost of losing a subset of the players who supported CoH in the past because we felt what it was doing was not akin to orthodox MMOs and innovatively different in a manner that pleased us.
It doesn't change the fact that I feel the need to chime in on the forums now and then to voice my opinions, possibly seek validation from others who may feel the same as I, and potentially contribute to feedback that may influence the devs into considering options or directions that may not have occurred to them. Because I do care about the game, and would not like to be lost as a customer.
Just speaking for myself though, the current uncertainty is hard for me to decide one way or another to stay or to go, to show my support of the game's direction through my sub, or whether I should accept that CoH has changed too much for my liking and cease to support it.
I like the loyalty Vanguard Pack coming, even though it feels a bit of a bribe to stay on. Putting up with the WST and the changes it engenders in overall community feel are a bit more of a pain, since I am of the opinion that dangling excessive extrinsic rewards steadily move people towards being concerned about the ends, rather than the means or the journey. I am fanatically crazy about the Animal Pack, but I am also concerned that if I buy it, it might feed development of the game into a direction I'm not crazy about, towards a future that I personally have no interest in playing. I don't know for sure yet, of course, until it hits.
My initial hope and belief was that CoH devs could and would design an inclusive endgame, something different from the norm. It could be that I20 might still surprise me. I do feel that the WST is a badly conceived stopgap measure to keep the population subscribed and amused until then, though.
So, yeah, I'm confused and conflicted. It is most likely that I will wait and watch and see until I20 and news of I21 plans arrive to decide one way or another.
(And why post this? Because it's feedback, subjective and personal though it might be. It might be ignored, it might be taken into consideration, that's not in my control. But if it isn't voiced, then no one would have heard in the first place.) -
Quote:Please try not to assume that my personal issue with the STF and LRSF is that I can't complete it due to being teamed with bad players.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Your unfortunate enough to team with some really bad players, then.
I don't like the idea of the STF/LRSF for a number of reasons.
One, it's divisive and encourages negative feeling in the community. You get the subset of players who are picky about their teams, and the other players who then deride them for being stupid and picky (with the implication that they are then more superior.) You get the subset of players who rant or rage because they can't complete or win it, and then you get the other players who jump on them for being unlucky, uncoordinated or unwilling to do all the other strategies they suggest (again with the implication that they are more elite and uber.) Blame-calling, jealousy, being impatient with others because they're not like you.
Personally, I find this all very ugly and not enjoyable. Reading the back-and-forth leaves me with a lot of ill-feeling and not-having-any-fun-ness.
Two, their inherent design requires a lot of leadership, responsibility stress and team coordination like herding cats within the TF itself.
Sorry, I'm playing CoH for fast furious fun combat with smoothly integrating group synergies that don't require much words, and do not result in total party wipe if one or two people fail at their individual gameplay.
I don't really find huddling together in a group discussing intricate strategies pre-combat, then executing, and if someone doesn't execute properly, wiping, reviving, re-huddle, re-plan, re-execute exceedingly fun. I find the amount of responsibility involved in leading to be very tiring and draining and not something I want to do very often, and if I wait for someone else to lead, then my time is held hostage by their skill or lack of. I could be playing a real raid treadmill MMO if I found those particular activities thrilling.
Three, their design exposes and almost requires abusing a lot of the game's broken or iffy-working systems. Softcap defense, stacked inspirations, leashing Recluse by flying into funny corners, purple triangle AVs with big bags of hitpoints, -regen, perma-dom mass sleep, stacking appropriate type resists to counter this and that...
I dunno. On the one hand, I can respect that yes, it makes sense that one of the hardest challenges in the game should require extreme game knowledge to figure out the best counters or appropriate optimization of one's available resources.
On the other hand, it makes me twitch a little that the solutions are so extreme, and that there are so many of them stacked together in one TF that a savvy TF runner would be smart to pre-build an optimized team that has counters for what GW can do, what Recluse can do, etc. (This feeds back into point one, which encourages people to become picky, and the resultant negative feeling.)
Or a flexible TF runner will end up doing a huddle to build strategies on the fly (which feeds back into point one, which results in people feeling superior/elite and smug and feeds into my point two of un-enjoyment, which is when I start thinking, why I am putting up with raiding-style strategies and requisite group/time investment in a game that I came to in order to escape that style of gameplay? And all for what? Loot. *sighs* I picked this game initially because it didn't have any leet loot to chase.)
Anyhow, Tuesday and a change of WST can't come soon enough. I don't even mind exemplaring when Sister Psyche comes along. -
Well, I'd like to thank the devs for how smart they were being by starting the Seven Year Reward at the same time they introduced the WST. If not for that, I would have canceled just to indicate my *eye-roll* at the STF and LRSF being the first WST and decision to not participate.
I loathe those two task forces with every fibre of my being - and it's not because I can't complete it, I have - but because of how picky and exclusive and negative it 'encourages' the community to be in its design. a) Look for tank to start. b) Lather on the buffer/debuffers. c) Stare at powersets and pick and choose. Not to mention, grind and prepare for a few hours outside of TF time for nukes, shivans, HVASes and other stuff just in case the team can't do it by themselves. Every time I think about doing one of those TFs, I think meh, I rather do an Apex or Tin Mage and I much rather log off. Because I'm not having fun even thinking about preparing to do them, let alone doing them.
Perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way about it. That's just too bad. I wish the rest of you well in enjoying the WST. Thanks for playtesting all the problems with such an annoying task as the target. Let's hope that between the patches and the inherent frustrations of the STF/LRSF that more people don't end up coming around to my way of thinking about them, because the chore/grind/obligation-to-complete factor is a good way of killing long term interest and subscription to a game.
For myself, I will not be logging onto CoH this week. I will not contribute myself as an additional number in the dev's datamine to say, oh, the WST was a success. I will cheerfully wait for next week's ITF and delay a Notice of the Well by one week. It's not worth the effing aggravation of an STF or LRSF - if it succeeds, I'm grinding my teeth because of the cheesy tactics or team composition used, if it fails, it's hours and hours of wasted time.
I have chosen to avoid hamster wheel raid endgame grind (grind in the sense of repetitively doing something -I don't find fun-) in other games, and I will be avoiding it here. Hopefully, it will just be for a week.
If not, then well, seven years is a long time to stick with any game, whereas games can change beyond recognition in the space of weeks or months. Please be very careful that while adding 'endgame' to pander to the hardcore subset that desires one, that the rest of your game's population are not alienated in the process. I am content to wait and see until I20, but my unease has been developing for quite some time. -
Quote:First thing I tried. Didn't work either.Originally Posted by Tex
You could also try the 'Repair (Consistency Check)' option in the pick list when you right click on the game name in the Launcher.
Appreciate the free tech support, but I brought it up to highlight that the NCsoft launcher generates frustration over goodwill. If I really get the urge to play the other game again, I can Google and manual patch my way to victory eventually.
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At the risk of sidelining the thread, no. If I delete 10 gigs worth of Aion off my PC, it will get replaced with a Steam game or another MMO of that size, rather than sit through NCsoft launcher installation once more. I download at speeds of 1-2 MB/sec on Steam, 200kb/sec using CoH launcher, and about 50-150kb/sec using NCsoft's launcher.
Um... in a vain attempt to steer this post back to questions for Second Measure...
Does the hinted at "furry" pack contain hunched over, beast-like running animation? If so, you can have my pre-order for it right now. :P
Hmm... It's really really hard to think of questions when we have nothin' concrete for the future. Waiting for I19.5 news? Check. Waiting for I20? Check. Waiting for more Praetoria additions? Check. Waiting for more hints of epic storyline? Check. All covered already, and the answer seems to be wait for us to tell you more.
Hmm... Big red ball? -
I've only gotten to page 2 of this thread, but just needed to say this quickly:
I'm really encouraged that the devs have a new resolution to communicate more with the community, and that the watchword is inclusiveness for the endgame (though time will tell if the balance between challenging and fun vs challenging and frustrating is gotten right)...
...but please, oh God, save us from the NCsoft launcher. Please make it optional to use it. I liked the CoH launcher once it started switching between ports that weren't typical peer to peer network related (as my ISP throttles those ports severely).
In comparison, I've had to use the NCsoft launcher for Tabula Rasa, Exteel, Dungeon Runners and Aion. TR had issues with the download, but some fighting with the launcher got it working. Exteel and DR were ok...
...but Aion... ah, Aion started working properly and then rapidly went down the drain when I stopped the game for six months, then tried updating it for the double xp weekends. To this day, it still gives a version number error, useless help info - something akin to "unable to download correct version manifest, the server may be under maintenance, please try again later" and refuses to patch. I've no clue what it is up to, the NCsoft support knowledgebase has nothing on the error, it might possibly be because my version numbers are too backdated for it. If I were driven enough, I might debug my way through the obstacle. But I really can't be bothered. I rather not play the game and save money by not subscribing.
That is not something you want your on-the-fence CoH players to feel while choosing between the three superhero MMO games now out on the market. Get them into the interesting game fast and quick, not playing the debug patch error game. -
It all depends. I spent a good six months or more when I first joined CoH just making tons of alts and feeling out the powersets. Lots of alts in their teens and a few aborted attempts at level 35+. Also feeling out the servers: started on Justice, went on to Freedom, experimented with Guardian and Pinnacle and finally settled on Virtue.
The first character I really 'clicked' with was the invul/fire tank on Freedom a little before the issue where invul got nerfed. Spent maybe a couple happy weeks of teaming and got to about 35ish before the hammer came down on invul. Dangit. Was still in love with it all the same, so I kept working on it, soloing and teaming up to 50. Think it was about 280+ hours.
More alting. More not hitting 50 on anything. City of Villains came by, decided to get a level 50 villain to match the level 50 hero. Teaming and soloing the ice/energy dom, took about 180 hours to get him to 50.
About this time, there was a big dom debate furor on whether they were OP, alright or gimp. Hold Them Touch Them was made on the Pinnacle server by DarkCurrent and ShrikeX (iirc). I tried a grav/, ugh, even slower than ice. Decided to go hog wild and try the powerset more likely to be considered OP. BJ, fire/fire dom was born... Playing him, I realized I really was a closet pyromaniac and REALLY LIKED BURNING things with FLAME.
My timezone was off from the others, it was quite hard teaming up regularly, and they were racing through the levels. The PvP zones were the new thing at the time, and it hit me to do a self-imposed solo 'plevel' challenge and race the HTTT teamers up to level 50. It took maybe 4 days to a week of 6-8 hours a day doing nothing but PvP zone missions over and over since level 25ish - setting things on fire never got old though - and BJ hit 50 practically before anyone else, except ShrikeX's dom, if I recall correctly, who had been started first before the others, and he spent a lot of time joining 8-people teams. BJ was very young when he hit 50, about 100 hours plus minus 2, I think.
The dark def on the other hand has taken literally 3-4 years. Made when I first started the game (she's got like the first anniversary badge) and abandoned for other characters for a very long time. Took the incoming spate of lots of TFs with lots of AVs for me to decide that one of the more reliable characters to have in my stable to take on TF teams would be a -regenner debuffer with control and other support options. Started seriously working on her when the Katie TFs were the popular thing and got her to 50 then.
Between soloing and teaming, I would say most of my chars all average 150-180ish hours now to hit 50, but how spread out those hours are is something else entirely. -
Quote:Thank you for summarizing the critical difference which has me feeling very uneasy at the future direction of this game. If future content reflects this as a change in developer mindset or philosophy, just like the developer silence on the forums has deepened, well, it's not quite the same CoH anymore.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
The only difference is that now the divide is made clearer, and those who can't or won't suddenly find themselves shut out not by their own actions (or inaction, as the case may be) but by developer decree.
I do hope I'm wrong about this, and the devs are silently paying attention as per normal - which is part of the reason why the CoH boards are so nice to discuss stuff in. -
Quote:Alright. My factual error there with IOs and salvage.Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Specialty drops (vanguard merits, incarnate shards, reward merits for GMs) can be produced for each player, but a mob will produce at most one IO recipe, at most one invention salvage, and then it's assigned to a random player of those eligible for rewards.
I was mainly trying to allude to the reason why all the drops are not announced in general chat as a matter of course as well. Some people still feel compelled to share how much they got, but it's not made public by the game's design. -
Quote:However, there is very little variation in getting to level 30 and getting the Midnighter badge as compared to the rest of the basic CoH gameplay. If there were a slew of complaints on the forums on how it is "impossible to reach 30" or "impossible to get the Midnighter badge," I would indeed think twice about having that as a gate.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
You can't join my Manticore TF unless you're level 30. You can't join my ITF unless you have the Midnighter badge. Artificial barriers to entry are nothing new to this game.
I'd point to the level 50 epic archetype unlocks as another example. Omg, it's so EASY to get multiple level 50s in this game, go the people who have multiple level 50s. But there's really no need to have that as an artificial gate to epic ATs, is it? Folks have complained on the forums about that previously. There's data in various MMOs to suggest that quite a lot of the playerbase never hit a max level character. Hence, the requirement for unlock has dropped to level 20, if I'm not mistaken.
Now the gate to the Alpha slot is first, the "Impossible Mr Trapdoor" that has produced a ferocious divisive debate over whether it can be achieved (and a patch that has apparently ramped up the level of difficulty too), and then repeated running of various Task Forces (or very dogged soloing, for which, I am thankful that option has been included.)
I'm not saying we can't have artificial barriers. But I'm pointing out that one should look very hard at the exact details of the barrier, and in turn, how that prompts the general community to react.
Let's take a wild hypothetical example of designing a really tall artificial barrier of progression. What if participating in Invention sets required you to get the Field Crafter badge and unlock the crafting station by crafting all those normal IOs first? Or you get a certain number of normal sets to drop on one character (and a shiny badge!) before you graduate to unlocking "purple" set drops.
You think those won't divide the community? I suspect the grumpiness between those-who-can and those-who-can't will get even more hysterical. :P
And I'm so not in favor of community divisions.
There is a -reason- why every character in CoH can get an individually rolled loot drop off the same mob, rather than play the need before greed competitive dice roll game of other MMOs. I'm saying not to lose sight of that kind of rationale for inclusiveness in the upcoming Incarnate System additions.
I don't have major issues with the Alpha slot content as a whole. The two things that I do have specific beef with are making the initial unlock too difficult for folks to achieve (aka Trapdoor) and a dramatic -4 level shift that pretty much encourages the community as a whole to even dismiss the idea of taking a non-Alpha slotted character into the Apex and Tin Mage task forces.
You know another example of how you can sway the community with a very simple tweak in game design? Offer a shiny 'uber-challenge' badge for successful Apex or Tin Mage task force completion with the team containing at least one level-shifted individual. I virtually guarantee folks will at least consider taking one on, if not looking for them outright when they want the shiny.
Ah, but would you TAKE a person without the Alpha Slot when you begin those TFs? Would you shrug and not bother in the same way that most people would not bother if a character was IO'ed or SO'ed in a TF? (Though we all know a few annoying people that have started bothering about that.)Quote:Originally Posted by Rikis
Again, it's simply not true. On one of my successful attempts Apex TFs, a person had disconnected so we were down to 7, and at all points in the fight, we had two people (generally speaking, different team members) dead. So at all points in the fight, we were fighting with an effective 5 people doing damage/debuffing. Sure it was slow, but it's to be expected if you're taking that fight with less than a full team. I've also done the Tin Mage TF with 7 people. Although that's not such a big deal because that TF is more of the same as the old stuff.
Or would you automatically go "Ok, does everyone have the Alpha Slot here?" and start scrutinizing everyone's buffs?
If the latter, why? Why did the game design encourage you to react in that way? -
Quote:And thus, not worth paying attention to? Or just repeatedly advising them to use the same tactics the other 99 out of 100 players did, in the hope that it will fix the 'operator error?'Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
If 99 out of 100 players can succeed at a specific piece of content, and one struggles or fails repeatedly at that same task, what conclusion is there to be drawn other than 'operator error'?
Perhaps there is a physical handicap for why they can't manage it. There are severely disabled people that play MMOs or other games, and they would love the option of an 'uber-easy' mode. Too often, the gamer reply is, "Hey, I can do it, why can't you? I don't need the uber-easy mode, we don't need it in-game, period."
I wasn't one of those who got sick with the sonic powerset effects. I don't see why people have to jump down the throats of others, going, lol, I'm ok, live with it.
Or even if they have no physical handicap, but choose not to, for various gameplay/immersion/personal reasons. Doesn't mean that their opinions and options have to be dismissed out of hand. ("Incarnate System is for folks who can be hardcore enough. Don't like it? Don't participate in it" is the feeling I'm getting out of the devs' game design and some of the community.)
But it doesn't have to be that way. We want CoH to have lots of subscribers, of all different gameplay styles, all accepted for how they like to play. Or at least, I do. There are things that can be done to promote this sort of inclusive feeling.
For example, as suggested earlier in the thread, making some solo or easier Incarnate story narratives that aren't TF only.
Or simply, in every Issue update, to remember to include and hype some content for soloists, as well as the latest 'raid'/Incarnate system update. I notice LOTRO does this quite a lot - in their effort to support a diverse, story-focused community but still keep hardcore raiders, soloist explorers and staunch roleplayers in the population, they try and do a little something for everyone each update.
Or not placing an artificial level-shift THAT painful so that one or two people minus the alpha slot can still be 'carried' through it. That will give them a chance to see what they're missing, and perhaps be inspired and taught to improve further. How in the world can we encourage people to alpha slot if their only encounter with it is "Oh sorry, you don't have the alpha slot, we can't take you on this TF?" For some kinds of folks, that sort of reception can get very discouraging and stop them from interacting with the main community.
The very reason CoH has successful inclusive PUG teaming is less reliance on holy trinity, one person's failure not equaling to automatic team wipe, 8 member teams meaning one or two (or three or four) can be not so good players and still succeed at the mission. Seems a shame to wipe that out so quickly with the Incarnate System. For content that requires all 7 slots alpha to omega, then ok, perhaps that's acceptable, but we have to be careful not to be like WoW and lock all important story narratives/conclusions away from people who don't raid (or Incarnate).
The alpha slot is only the beginning. Did we have to artificially gate content THAT fast and that rigidly? -
Quote:Because I PUG and am in favor of inclusivity, so I see all sorts. The good and the bad. The separation of us vs them is what I am always wary of CoH heading down that road. I'm not in favor of dismissing anybody because they don't play like me.Originally Posted by RadDidIt
Once again, why even team with those people?
But if the community 'feel' ends up shifting to selfishness instead of encouraging and nurturing, then it becomes much less attractive for me to bother with teaming or playing the game. Used to be I would get an 80-90% good PUG, now it's 50-60% chances. If it drops any further, I'll be even sadder. -
Quote:This. And what Heraclea has been going on and on about attitude in all her posts. The biggest thing that kept me subscribing for six years to CoH was the friendliness of the community and the inclusivity of its philosophy. Raids? New hamidon is the perfect example - take anyone, everyone plays an important part.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know, I'm not handicapped, I have good dexterity, I have decent reflexes... And yet it still bothers me how elitist the attitude here is becoming. Once upon a time, we acted like it was everyone's god-given right to have fun in the game in his own way. And now we take pleasure in telling people they're not good enough and that they don't "deserve" to participate? This concerns me greatly, because it stands to corrupt probably the single greatest advantage this community had over those of all other MMOs.
I watched the introduction of loot with a sinking heart - with IOs, came greed. People stopped being heroes, stopped giving away influence, and became merchants. They do this because the game design prompts them to, and rewards them for that attitude.
Then came the STF and LRSF. With it came more elitism, more pickiness about powersets, etc. Yes, the community has adapted to them. But it's gotten more ugly as a result. L2P is the common attitude, or more nicely and diplomatically, "hey, adapt and get used to it. It's -really- not that hard, you can do this and that, blah blah, etc." The separation has started. Not everyone discriminates against a character only in SOs, but a few have begun to, and people don't shout them down anymore in favor of inclusivity, they just shrug.
Teams have lost the united feeling. People are soloing in their IO'ed builds in a team, zooming off in different directions because they can. Hey, watch my soft-capped defence pwn this spawn of 8! WOOT, I got a purple drop (link link link). Count how many incarnate shards I got this mission ("I'm uber because the RNG gave me so many" is the implication.)
And now Tin Mage and Apex throw in a hardcoded gimmick, FORCING people to turn away anyone not alpha slotted. Even the nicest guy is reduced to "Hey, uhh, we are really really sorry, we feel hopelessly bad about this, but you can't play until you get the alpha slot, cos of the design of the TF." And trust me, not everyone communicates so nicely. It is dev and game design-prompted elitism (if that's too strong a word for you, call it a separation and division of the playerbase into the haves and have-nots, the can-dos and the can't dos).
That is my concern. It has begun a long long time ago. I took a very long break away from this. But the more this game changes to resemble every other MMO out there, in design and in community, the sadder I feel, it's just not the same community anymore.
P.S. For the record, I have alpha slotted, and I have run Apex and Tin Mage. I happen to have the reflexes and situational awareness to dodge the patches, and I don't find the TFs so bad personally. (Though I have taken to camping out on my dark def because she just seems the safest to handle any AV and any gimmick successfully - yay for -regen and being ranged.)
But the very fact that I have to sit here and qualify this in order to deflect the automatic impulse of those-who-can to assume that I can't, is what saddens me. -
Thanks for the feedback all, I'm not good with expensive IO builds, used to cheapo-frankenslotting only. Please keep them coming, good number of things to chew on.
Quote:Good point, never really looked closely at the damage per second or damage per activation stats in Mid's until this comment. Learn something new every day.Originally Posted by Happy_Thoughts
Maybe consider recharge since they're only at 41% currently, and/or damage procs.
I'm planning on Musculature for the alpha slot, so I think I can tolerate damage at around 85% IO enhanced. If I exemplar down and lose that boost, chances are likely I'll be on a team with plenty more damage-causing folks. But I didn't realize the effect of recharge or fiddled with damage procs much.
Level 16: Tenebrous Tentacles -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(19), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), Posi-Dam%(37), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 20: Night Fall -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(21), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(21), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), Posi-Dam%(40), RechRdx-I(40)
I've swapped the plan as follows. This is going to be interesting to build toward.
Level 1: Dark Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(29), Decim-Build%(34)
Level 2: Gloom -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(13), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Also while going through the build again, noticed that I would probably be better off putting the unique chance for build up in the faster recharging dark blast than gloom, so swapped those. -
Ok, a bit of background. Haven't played seriously since Issue 15, just dabbled in Praetoria a little with Going Rogue, and have lost track of all the niggling changes like new IO sets, PvP IOs, current price of IOs, dual builds, new taskforces since Imperious TF, morality missions and the new merits, alpha slots, etc. and oh yes, inherent fitness.
My dark def is currently frankenslotted to a passable extent, with hasten/superspeed, stamina, leadership toggles, using power sink from the elec epic to shore up greedy end usage.
But eh, inherent fitness... So I'm thinking of working on a dual build and respec'ing that to accomodate inherent fitness, while picking up some other fun powers to play with. I also need some kind of goal to work (grind, *gulp*) towards, otherwise I'm just picking up merits here and there from random taskforces with no clue what to do with them.
Stuff I do and what I want: I solo a lot. I want damage, and the end bar to support it. More recharge couldn't hurt. My main problems at the moment are being fairly slow to kill anything, mez effects (I know, carry breakfrees
) and the odd annoying EB which is cured with judicious use of 3 purples (screw running toggles) and a trayful of reds.
I also team, and I'd like to try the new taskforces and still be a decent dark defender with all the nice team powers, not some strange solo build contortion. Exemplaring down to try out the revised Posi or a mid-level TF shouldn't make me think "oh @#)! I forgot X..."
Mid's build below:
1) Did I forget X? (power choices, slotting)
2) Did I accidentally pick IOs that will take me years to work toward accumulating? Weeks, maybe a month or three, for a few treasured ones, is fine.
3) Are there better options (for power choices or slotting)?
All advice, feedback, discussion is much appreciated.
NB: Level 38 power, Blackstar, is for fun. I would like to slot it but can't figure out how. I don't snipe much, if ever. Wanted to try Black Hole, but couldn't work up the guts to. Torrent, Life Drain, meh. Don't have any of these powers on my current build. Might eventually drop it for something more utility like recall friend, but well, fun is fun.
The plan is to switch to villain, unlock soul mastery, switch back to hero-side. Anyone know if it will stay unlocked if I then respec while hero-aligned, or do I have to respec as a villain to use the pool?
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Sejanna: Level 50 Natural Defender
Primary Power Set: Dark Miasma
Secondary Power Set: Dark Blast
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(A), Theft-Heal/Rchg(7), Theft-Acc/Heal(27), Theft-Heal(31), Theft-+End%(33), DarkWD-Slow%(46)
Level 1: Dark Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(29), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 2: Gloom -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(13), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Decim-Build%(31)
Level 4: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(7), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(27), DarkWD-ToHitDeb(31), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(34)
Level 6: Tar Patch -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(11), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 10: Super Speed -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Fearsome Stare -- Cloud-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), Cloud-ToHitDeb(17), Cloud-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Cloud-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Abys-Acc/Fear/Rchg(36), Abys-EndRdx/Fear(36)
Level 14: Fly -- Srng-Fly(A), Srng-EndRdx/Fly(15), Frbd-Fly(15), Zephyr-ResKB(36)
Level 16: Tenebrous Tentacles -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(19), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), DampS-ToHitDeb(37), DampS-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(37)
Level 18: Howling Twilight -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 20: Night Fall -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(21), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(21), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), DampS-ToHitDeb(40), DampS-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(40)
Level 22: Shadow Fall -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(23), S'fstPrt-ResKB(23), GftotA-Def(40), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(42), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 24: Petrifying Gaze -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(25), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(25), Lock-Rchg/Hold(42)
Level 26: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 28: Tactics -- AdjTgt-ToHit(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx(43), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(45)
Level 30: Vengeance -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 32: Dark Servant -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb(A), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(33), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(33), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(45), DarkWD-Slow%(46)
Level 35: Dark Pit -- Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(A), Rope-Acc/Stun/Rchg(45)
Level 38: Blackstar -- Dmg-I(A)
Level 41: Soul Drain -- GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(A), GSFC-Build%(43), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 44: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 47: Soul Storm -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(48), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(48), Lock-Rchg/Hold(48)
Level 49: Summon Mistress -- ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(50), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(5), EndMod-I(5) -
[ QUOTE ]
As for Positron's comment: Great, this means they'll get a designer who specializes in making 1 mission XP farms.
[/ QUOTE ]
Guess they've got "understand the needs of players in an MMO" down pat.
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<QR>
I'm just wondering why no one has pointed out LOTRO, at $9.99 a month for Founder pricing and their anniversary offers. The reduced rate encourages me to keep the subscription going as a secondary MMO.
All you need is one extra person thinking a second account for more alts would be good, or hanging on to the subscription while playing another MMO as their primary game to net you a profit.
That's how Steam can slash prices on weekend deals and still end up making oodles of $$$.
Just devil's advocating here. I can afford $15 a month fine. I can afford LOTRO and a third or fourth or however many MMOs I want fine too. I'll just run out of time to play 'em in a hurry. :P