Trapdoor is getting harder.
Put me in the Ironblade & Uberguy camp.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: I think this arc is poorly designed. As an introduction to the Incarnate system, I think it's terrible. It's difficult to believe that this content was unveiled in the same issue as those two new 20-29 arcs. Night and day, there. This feels like a throw-back to issue 7 or 8. I think this arc needs a complete overhaul. A heavy-handed (and kinda dumb) band-aid ain't gonna do the trick. Pulling is a valid tactic in the game. Seems to me it would've been better to work with that (make his bifurcations go with him if he's pulled) than work against it. But I guess that would've required too much effort. This change doesn't make the encounter more difficult, it only makes it potentially more aggravating, and makes me (and likely others) more inclined to simply mow over it in the typical fashion that allegedly isn't supposed to work in this arc (and yet works just fine, in my experience). The arc is presented as a personal journey, it should've been designed as such. If people are saying "get a team", that is, to me, an indication of design failure. I understand it was probably a rush job, but c'mon. It's supposed to be the doorway to all this new shiny. It's shouldn't feel like the same ol' same old. This game already has a problem with limited options for dealing with an encounter. So, narrowing the options by which this particular encounter can be dealt with might not have been the smartest move. I'm just sayin'. |
My only issue is with the change to Trapdoor as it sounds to me like the devs saying, "Play it OUR way. This is the RIGHT way to do it."
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
it's that some of us are respectable, intelligent beings. |
Even a possible chance of one even starting, it would be modded and deleted due to the fact it's better business to keep absent minded consumers than smart ones.
Anyhow...
Okay, if you're going to be in 'my camp', we need to ditch the parts I highlighted in yellow. I have NO PROBLEM with the arc as originally designed. I do NOT think it needs an overhaul. I LIKE it.
My only issue is with the change to Trapdoor as it sounds to me like the devs saying, "Play it OUR way. This is the RIGHT way to do it." |
Reichsman was programed to stay put in his area, Trapdoor on the other hand was not and it seems like when players where using a pulling method on Trapdoor, they patched him into not being able to be out of the line of sight of his Biwhositwhatsits when they were intending to multiply more of those guys and was as making them spawn in more random places.
Instead of closing the room off or making his Biwhatchamacallits follow him or spawn around him, they just made the lazy move to just make him stay put so you couldn't pull him.
Why wasn't this explained before? you'd think this was discussed about sometime and a Red Name would at least tell us "Hey, Thanks for pointing that out, Trapdoor was intended to be left in the lava room, so next patch he shouldn't be able to be pulled away from his Biwhozitwhatzit."
I wanted to go into why I feel the lack of professionalism with these arcs, but I will save the devs grace and not type out my opinion about traits in personal health, but rather state what they are doing, and what they have been since I've subbed back since last October, is that I feel they are rushing this too fast where they are half-[Censored]ing work, and placing out poorly designed products and features.
I blame mostly on you forumers, always bored and wanting the devs to constantly give us instant gradification when it takes time and effort to to make a quality product (look at Blizzard rep, point is proven there) and also would aide in the devs so called health problems due to the mass of stress we place on them.
To sum it all up, I'd say yes, the devs did a sloppy work in making the incarnate arc and making Trapdoors situation more difficult than what we are facing now, but I would have to blame the forumers and the dev's business partners into rushing this tripe in order to please the masses before NCSoft loses subscriptions and income from the players that expect the next "Eye Candy" till the next "thing" hits.
My only issue is with the change to Trapdoor as it sounds to me like the devs saying, "Play it OUR way. This is the RIGHT way to do it." |
Please note:
1. While the developers do state their intent sometimes they do not state it all the time, regarding everything. Nor are they required to.
2. The developers can and do change their intent, sometimes after they have stated it.
3. We can make suggestions/arguments to influence their intent regarding some/any part of the game. But the final decision is theirs.
I do wish the developers would explicitly state whether this change to Trapdoor was a case of "we fixed an exploit that was making it too easy" or "at first we thought pulling him was OK, but then we changed our minds".
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
The difference between an exploit and a valid strategy is developer intent. It is not whether I or you or the forums as a collective think "this is OK". It is not about having more or less choices.
Please note: 1. While the developers do state their intent sometimes they do not state it all the time, regarding everything. Nor are they required to. 2. The developers can and do change their intent, sometimes after they have stated it. 3. We can make suggestions/arguments to influence their intent regarding some/any part of the game. But the final decision is theirs. I do wish the developers would explicitly state whether this change to Trapdoor was a case of "we fixed an exploit that was making it too easy" or "at first we thought pulling him was OK, but then we changed our minds". |
I've found communication between the devs and players during betas have gotten considerably WORSE.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Okay, if you're going to be in 'my camp', we need to ditch the parts I highlighted in yellow. I have NO PROBLEM with the arc as originally designed. I do NOT think it needs an overhaul. I LIKE it.
My only issue is with the change to Trapdoor as it sounds to me like the devs saying, "Play it OUR way. This is the RIGHT way to do it." |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Mmm...
Would like to understand some players' meaning of challenge...
It seems to me, that limiting players to simply exchange DPS with a mob under the mob's conditions to be the only acceptable source of challenge.
Players wanting to use cunning, such as goating the baddie to walk away from his power base, oh that can not be acceptable, we are not supposed to use our brains! That would be an exploit! (Ha ha ha)
Love the attitude of some posters, well some of the ATs don't have a problem, therefore "there is no problem" (I am glad I don't play the Ats that don't, so its not a problem! frame of mind)
As I said often, the challenge for developers is to set a situation that challenges fairly all ATs. Since Support ATs tend to have weak DPS and resistances, making a mission where they are reasonably challenged, would result with an easy mission for the so well designed melee ATs.
While I was eventually able to defeat Trapdoor with my Emp/Psi Defennder solo, it was long and tedius, its really hard to kill folks with a wet noodle... I think at the end, Trapdoor got so bored of my attacking him, that he Kavorkian himself by diving into the lava pool...
Stormy
Seeing as how there was a lengthy closed beta there was plenty of time to make this intent known DURING the beta. To me that's a failure on their part, as they could have had their beta testers TEST this.
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I've found communication between the devs and players during betas have gotten considerably WORSE. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
While I was eventually able to defeat Trapdoor with my Emp/Psi Defennder solo, it was long and tedius, its really hard to kill folks with a wet noodle... I think at the end, Trapdoor got so bored of my attacking him, that he Kavorkian himself by diving into the lava pool...
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I can't beat Trapdoor now (at -1!) and they're making it *harder*? Inspirations helped a lot: they allowed me to remove 1/8 of his HP between chasing down his far too frequent and apparently unending "bifurcations" before the inspirations ran out and I died. I'd like to bifurcate the Midas-eared person who designed that encounter and then the bastitch who decided it couldn't be auto-completed - I have a sharp axe and a dull sword available for the task and right now the latter sounds altogether most suitable.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
The difference between an exploit and a valid strategy is developer intent.
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An exploit is about undesireable levels of reward per effort or time. I cannot accept that pulling him into the hallway is more time effective than knocking him into the lava or simply DPS-ing him to death with a damage-dealing build. (Did I mention that the lava killed him on its own the one time I knocked him in it? I just had to defeat his bifurcations.)
Closing off innovative solutions to a problem that don't give unreasonable reward comes across as petty, intentions be damned. If it's not giving unreasonable reward, the motivation for doing it is purely conceptual, and it says that their concept for how the encounter should play out trumps player ingenuity.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I fought Trapdoor yesterday with my human-form WS. He didn't seem anymore difficult than when I fought him with my electric/ice tanker. If anything, the fight was over more quickly even though this time around I actually fought some of his clones and he did stun and 'defeat' my WS once. Fortunately I had a fluffy up to distract him while my WS rezzed. After that he was kind enough to fall into the lava and shortly thereafter he started begging for mercy.
What was damn tough for my WS was the room full of Rikti.
I decided to try a "stupid" strategy against Trapdoor yesterday. I took my Fire/Fire/Flame Blaster to the encounter, took on two reds, two purples, Hasten, Aim and Build up and just rushed the guy. I managed to put him down on his knees shortly after he summoned his second bifurcation. I'm not sure if this is unique to Fire/Fire having severe shock damage and very fast attacks (I doubt I'd be able to do that with AR or DP), but he was doable like this. I didn't have a chance to try his bifurcations to see how hard they'd be to kill for that Blaster.
On that note, that same Blaster managed to down Hero 1 without dying, largely because Ring of Fire seems to -fly him for about five seconds at a time. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Didn't you read Ballsock Aztec's replies? HE didn't have a problem and his lucky streak was seven encounters long, which means YOU don't have a problem, either. You gots to get yer head right, boy! Those extra bifurcations you saw were *imaginary* because they never happened to him!
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Where the hell did you even get the last half of the post? Glad to see you're still putting words in my mouth. I KILLED the bifurcations AS they spawned and never saw them spawn faster than one every 30 seconds. On seven characters. That IS NOT LUCK.
I never said they didn't exist. I never said the mechanic wasn't there. I said they spawned at a regular pace, not rapidly, and I KILLED them rather than try to whittle him down through his regen.
You keep posting what you want to hear though, it seems to be working for you. And I appreciate the name-calling. You're just pissy because I called you on your bull@#$% and you have no other comebacks other than making crap up and insulting people.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/HellkatPredator/2012%20Livestreams/ChompAeon.gif)
Once I figured out that he sizzles quick in the lava, all I have needed is a way to get him into the shabu-shabu pot. If that remains the viable tactic, I am not sure the clones matter.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
I actually decided to view this post.
Where the hell did you even get the last half of the post? Glad to see you're still putting words in my mouth. I KILLED the bifurcations AS they spawned and never saw them spawn faster than one every 30 seconds. On seven characters. That IS NOT LUCK. I never said they didn't exist. I never said the mechanic wasn't there. I said they spawned at a regular pace, not rapidly, and I KILLED them rather than try to whittle him down through his regen. You keep posting what you want to hear though, it seems to be working for you. And I appreciate the name-calling. You're just pissy because I called you on your bull@#$% and you have no other comebacks other than making crap up and insulting people. |
I'm specifically referring to the post you made where you all but called people talking about the fast respawns of the bifurcations liars. As proof, you held up the fact that you went seven encounters without experiencing that. (As you just now did.) Well, here's the thing: sometimes the bifurcations spawn at an increased rate. I experienced that in two of my four encounters and others experienced it, as well. Yet you essentially dismissed those statements as being untrue. Because if it didn't happen TO YOU, then obviously it NEVER HAPPENS AT ALL. It *was* luck for you. A coin coming up tails seven times in a row isn't evidence of design, it's just luck. The rest of us who've seen it come up heads aren't lying about that, we're just reporting what we saw.
This is why I can't respect you. Also the fact that you cried and put me on ignore. This is your thread. Man up and stay in the fight that you started, dude.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Hey, don't blame me, you started it.
I'm specifically referring to the post you made where you all but called people talking about the fast respawns of the bifurcations liars. As proof, you held up the fact that you went seven encounters without experiencing that. (As you just now did.) Well, here's the thing: sometimes the bifurcations spawn at an increased rate. I experienced that in two of my four encounters and others experienced it, as well. Yet you essentially dismissed those statements as being untrue. Because if it didn't happen TO YOU, then obviously it NEVER HAPPENS AT ALL. It *was* luck for you. A coin coming up tails seven times in a row isn't evidence of design, it's just luck. The rest of us who've seen it come up heads aren't lying about that, we're just reporting what we saw. This is why I can't respect you. Also the fact that you cried and put me on ignore. This is your thread. Man up and stay in the fight that you started, dude. |
I listed them, and all I got from you was "you got lucky". No, it still doesn't work out that way. I helped a friend run through that arc on 4 of her 5 50's last night and you know what happened? Same damn thing! Same respawn rate, same bifurcations, and the same strategy. Just kill the bifurcations and then hammer on Trapdoor. So 4 more runs, totaling 11 times I've watched and experienced this mission, and the same thing happened. Still sound like luck to you?
The attitude you're displaying is, "Well, my Purpled-out DPS monster waltzed through the mission so I don't know why you noobs don't know how to play."
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Then there was this little gem, aimed at another poster:
Stop judging US by the stupid people you've met.
In return, we won't judge other Belgians based on your posts. Deal? |
Since that post you've resorted to nothing but insults and making things up to boost your own argument instead of providing concrete evidence that my information is false. Here, let's look at those instances:
Ignore over this discussion? Gee, I hope you never have any real trouble in life. I'd hate to see you be too afraid to leave your bedroom.
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Apparently neither TrueMetal not Mr. Unpronounceable Random Letters wants you to have choice. It's their way or the highway.
... That's something they've utterly failed to express and instead just resort to insults. |
This coming from the guy who put me on ignore after two exchanges. Add something about a kettle and pot here.
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Didn't you read Ballsock Aztec's replies? HE didn't have a problem and his lucky streak was seven encounters long, which means YOU don't have a problem, either. You gots to get yer head right, boy! Those extra bifurcations you saw were *imaginary* because they never happened to him!
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ME?
Jeez, I thought all these Trapdoor missions I've run were actual experience, not just calling you names. Boy, I was wrong!
You've been contradicting yourself and acting like a first-rate fool since you insulted the gent from Belgium and got called on it. The only reason you're still taking this up with me (and following my posts around the other forums, I might add) is because you can't bear the thought of someone saying anything against what you believe and refuse to accept that you might be maybe just the least bit incorrect in your assumptions.
You want me to man up? I'll man up when you man up and we call this a draw. No one's right, no one's wrong. Crap happens one way and crap happens another way and it's on YOUR shoulders to understand that NOT EVERYONE experiences the same thing. Does it sound like I'm contradicting myself? Yes it does. But you've made the same mistake I have: You assumed, like I did, that the only way you've seen it is the way it must be.
We're both wrong. I will admit that what I said has a great chance of being inaccurate. Will you 'man up' and join me in doing so, or will you keep throwing mud at my expense?
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/HellkatPredator/2012%20Livestreams/ChompAeon.gif)
That's an apologist's definition of exploit, and one I categorically dismiss.
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I would like to see how that works out. It would certainly be something new in the MMO space.
An exploit is about undesireable levels of reward per effort or time.
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Right now, the developers get to make the rules. This is reality. They may have talked about some things, received feedback from players. But there has never been a case in the 6 year history of this game where player(s) forced the developers to make a change against their will.
And I agree with this system to the point that I play this game and pay money for my access to it. There are some parts I would like changed, and I have made suggestions regarding them. But the lack of those changes has not made the game unplayable to me - if/when that happens I will leave.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
That's exactly how my encounter went. My Fire x 3 Blaster is a killing machine, so I simply burned Trapdoor down. Who needs lava, I *am* lava! My AR/Dev Blaster, on the other hand, got spanked, hard, and repeatedly. And not in the fun way. I had to get help on her mission. My Energy/Energy Blaster simply pulled him into the hallway and batted him around like a cat smacking a mouse. My Brute just beat him to death.
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elec/elec/elec blaster.. not too difficult,
energy/energy/force blaster .. ditto,
AR/dev/weapon mastery blaster .. ditto,
2 MMs, robot/traps, merc/traps .. really easy;
bifurcation spawn rate wasn't fast, and each time it came up I defeated the spectre within a couple of seconds,
all were at -1 difficulty except for the 3x elec which was at 0 (and is the only one with any purple IOs: a stun set at the time). They all have numerous IO sets and nary a single SO among them.
I never pulled him out of the room but did knock him into the lava almost every time. It's not my fault he's too stupid to get out quickly.
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Dunno what all the hubbub is about.
Well then, I guess he must be teaming up with Fusionette!
There, I made it, okay? I made the joke.
I think the definition of the clones spawning "too quickly" is "faster than I can kill them while still trying to avoid being killed by Trapdoor" not necessarily any particular number of seconds. Having witnessed this (watching over another player's shoulder) it can *feel* very fast indeed.
I noticed the last time I helped someone with this mission that he would not stay in the hall. He'd run in then turn back. We finally just had to fight him in the doorway. I don't know if that was inside the regen radius or not but between a blaster and a scrapper we were able to defeat him pretty quickly. I'm sad to see this tactic being nerfed even if I can sort of understand why.
Since almost none of my characters have knockback outside the odd plasmatic taser temp-power, and none have -regen outside the dagger temp-power, I have no idea how I'm going to solo this mission in the future. Luckily I have plenty of friends who can help. I really feel for those that don't.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"