Trapdoor is getting harder.
Once again, the failure is in your performance and not the design of the encounter. |
Or not.
Look, this is all academic to me. When I meet this kind of crap on a low-damage character, I cut the Gordian knot: I go get a temp power. All of my 50s are Incarnate. Willy, nilly, whichever kinda way: it is done.
Doesn't sound like a "failure" to me. Mileage will vary, natch. Meanwhile one way or another I beat the system.
In any case, some people are claiming that any character can solo Trapdoor, and that any case where someone can't is a failure on the part of the player, not the design of the encounter. So I put that forth as an example of a character that I know *can* solo, and for whom I suspect the difficulty won't be trivial.
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Unlike some, I don't think it's likely that a totally arbitrary character can complete this mission solo unless they use external means, such as temp powers. I don't necessarily think that's a problem in this case.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The problem with this encounter is that in order to make it soloable for team geared characters (low damage, ally buffs), they'd need to make it so easy that the challenge would be trivial for anyone else and nothing out of the ordinary for these low damage characters. How would it qualify for endgame or incarnate content, if this was the case?
They solved the problem quite nicely, I think. Either you out-DPS him (using insps if needed) or then on a controller or whatever else, you mez him so that he can't summon clones and then whittle him down.
As I said earlier, it's completely fair for endgame content to expect the player to build their character in a smart way (this means: making it able to solo the content if you're hellbent on soloing it) and being able to use at least inspirations to their advantage. If this fails, it clearly seems the player is not ready to take on endgame content.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
The problem with this encounter is that in order to make it soloable for team geared characters (low damage, ally buffs), they'd need to make it so easy that the challenge would be trivial for anyone else and nothing out of the ordinary for these low damage characters. How would it qualify for endgame or incarnate content, if this was the case?
They solved the problem quite nicely, I think. Either you out-DPS him (using insps if needed) or then on a controller or whatever else, you mez him so that he can't summon clones and then whittle him down. As I said earlier, it's completely fair for endgame content to expect the player to build their character in a smart way (this means: making it able to solo the content if you're hellbent on soloing it) and being able to use at least inspirations to their advantage. If this fails, it clearly seems the player is not ready to take on endgame content. |
I don't think it's unreasonable to set Trapdoor to "Easy Mode" when someone is solo and then ramp up the difficulty as more teammates are added. As I mentioned before, on some builds he is ridiculously, even impossibly, difficult to fight, yet when adding just one other player that exact same encounter becomes trivially easy. That says "badly designed" right on the box.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's not what he did. You can certainly infer that from it, but it's not clear that the implication was so dramatic.
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And I can tell you from experience, some veteran players are total idiots. Present company need not be considered examples of this, but veteran status in the game says nothing about either expertise at the game or more general wit. |
Frankly, it's apparent to that you're not really interested in doing much more than griping, arguing with people do take the other side in the argument, and blowing what they actually say out of proportion into something rather different. |
All experiences are not *your* experiences, and the bald fact is that you got lucky in your encounter. There weren't multiple bifurcations, they didn't spawn at an increased rate, and Trapdoor never hit you once. Hell, *any* AT with any build could solo Trapdoor under those conditions. If he had actually hit you once, you would've been almost dead. If he'd also stunned you, you *would* have been dead with his second shot. If there had been multiple bifurcations you wouldn't have been able to out-damage his regen, and while chasing those spawns down he would've had ample opportunity to send you to the hospital. And you know, many people in this very thread have reported those things happening. I just think it's annoying that some of you who haven't encountered such things keep telling those of us who have that we're wrong and it didn't happen or we don't know how to play.
That's what's got my pretty pink Hello Kitty panties in a bunch.
Merry Christmas. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Welcome, my son. Welcome to the Elite.
Who did you fight? It's all right, we told you who to fight.
You're through the Trapdoor, finished your chore.
Now was that so hard for your first shard?
Go and replay old stuff to equip your buff.
Yes, the Alpha's way cool, and you know that Incarnates rule.
So welcome.
To the Elite.
As I mentioned before, on some builds he is ridiculously, even impossibly, difficult to fight, yet when adding just one other player that exact same encounter becomes trivially easy. That says "badly designed" right on the box.
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In some cases, there might be a case of "if the player took THIS power from their powerset" but didnt (ie a possible "obvious choice") then it can make the job a lot easier.
Case in point: Build Up/Aim are generally considered "must have" powers for blasters, but if you DONT take it, it can make your life more difficult. You can still play the game normally, but that *some* situations your life would be easier if you had taken it.
Without taking into consideration peoples builds, it can be hard as to WHY they are failling... and unless you individually tailor to the player(s) (might as well be two, cos two badly build empath defenders aint going to do much against Trapdoor necessarily), there will ALWAYS be cases of people failing to solo/duo around... no matter how long they have played the game.
Case in point: I tried the Honeree/the other guy... i FAILED badly trying to solo it, I had ONE friend show up, we cakewalked it... but my friend had issues trying to solo it also... Make of that what you will, especially considering that we also reset the mission when my friend joined up with me.
Lots of people in this thread were called liars for reporting different experiences than the OP's. Lots more have been called losers for not being able to beat Trapdoor easily, the way you did in your video. That aggravates me. |
But you can dismiss that mission - thank the powers that be - and so we see little complaining. Honoree/Holtz are a speed-bump that can be got around.
The issue of people being called liars when reporting issues that other players have no experienced is far older that Trappy or this thread. This behavior has been going on in these forums for an extremely long time. I remember once I was dogpiled for reporting that every now and then, EBs can hit right through Phase Shift. This is especially true for "name" characters like Citadel and Black Scorpion - if the boss is powerful enough, you better keep running even if you ARE phased. I had seen it multiple times, but the screaming on these forums about what a "liar" I was could probably be heard at the rim of the Arctic Circle. The amusing thing was that people were weighing in on this, and they'd never had Phase on one of their characters. Truly, lol.
No one person can see everything that happens in this game, on all possible ATS, on all possible builds. That's not popular news, but its true. For instance I have no idea what happens when an AR/traps Blaster takes on Trappy, so it interests me to hear what others have to say. Such conversations can, in the long term, help me decide what powersets I want to try for myself.
When people tell me I need to bring inspirations, or more inspirations, or different inspirations, I laugh. I enter EB encounters with a trayful, believe me, usually at least half Lucks. What strikes me as dangerous and counterproductive is when my level 50 character, so carefully built and slotted, is forced to rely on some little temp powers [which is what insps are, if you think about it] in order to get through an encounter. That does not say "super" to me, but that's just me.
Bad <----- actually a female, just sayin'.
That's *precisely* what he did. He was slightly more verbose than "you suxxor" and he slipped it in between other blather, but that's the essential tone of all the posts on this page. Telling people "it's not rocket science" and "you used wrong tactics" is insulting, period. The "you idiot" is implied, but it's there. This is reading comprehension 101. (See what I did there? I didn't insult you directly, but I *implied* that you just don't get it. As my mother always says, "It's not just *what* you say, it's *how* you say it.")
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Usage Note: Infer is sometimes confused with imply, but the distinction is a useful one. When we say that a speaker or sentence implies something, we mean that it is conveyed or suggested without being stated outright: When the mayor said that she would not rule out a business tax increase, she implied (not inferred) that some taxes might be raised. Inference, on the other hand, is the activity performed by a reader or interpreter in drawing conclusions that are not explicit in what is said: When the mayor said that she would not rule out a tax increase, we inferred that she had been consulting with some new financial advisers, since her old advisers were in favor of tax reductions. |
Come on, that's insulting on the face of it, veteran player or not. Don't defend douchey behavior. |
No I'm not. I'm just tired of the self-appointed Play Police acting all elite and insulting everyone with their "learn to play noob" attitude. So I will take the opportunity to call it out and insult them back, because it's no less than they deserve. Lots of people in this thread were called liars for reporting different experiences than the OP's. Lots more have been called losers for not being able to beat Trapdoor easily, the way you did in your video. That aggravates me. |
All experiences are not *your* experiences, and the bald fact is that you got lucky in your encounter. There weren't multiple bifurcations, they didn't spawn at an increased rate, and Trapdoor never hit you once. |
Moreover, I do not believe that he spawns multiple Bifurcations at once, ever. Every time I saw the message, he spawned one. However, during the long fight, I know that I was away looking for a Bifurcation long enough sometimes that spawned another when I was not near him, and in those cases there is no warning popup. This makes it appear as if he has summoned more than one.
Hell, *any* AT with any build could solo Trapdoor under those conditions. |
If he had actually hit you once, you would've been almost dead. If he'd also stunned you, you *would* have been dead with his second shot. |
If there had been multiple bifurcations you wouldn't have been able to out-damage his regen, and while chasing those spawns down he would've had ample opportunity to send you to the hospital. |
And you know, many people in this very thread have reported those things happening. I just think it's annoying that some of you who haven't encountered such things keep telling those of us who have that we're wrong and it didn't happen or we don't know how to play. |
See, that addendum was snarky, contextually. You know it and I know it, even though you didn't do anything to especially call it out. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Your position is increasingly one of defensiveness, and I believe you see assaults on your person instead of on your position even where they do not exist. Certainly ad homenim is a staple of internet discussion, but I think your defensive attitude is helping you see it where it was not intended. I read the same text you did, and I see "come on, inspirations are a big deal here" not "I'm assuming you're a moron and didn't even use inspirations." Sometimes, a cigar really is a cigar, and all that.
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It's an aside from your point, but I was responding to Ironik, Not Sam.
Something to bear in mind, is that we've never before had content that was as specifically targeted at being an increasing ramp of difficulty the way Incarnate content is. We've had hard new "hard" content before, like the LRSF and STF, but they weren't billed as "just the beginning" in quite the same way. The "lrn2play" people are going to be out in force. I very much doubt our community is really suddenly changing into a less friendly version of itself. I think we're just discussing topic that's really near and dear to the "lrn2play" crowd to a degree never before seen, and they're being more vocal than before.
And honestly, that's assuming there's more of it than there has been in the past when things like the LRSF debuted. I seem to recall plenty of "lrn2play" posts back then. I can't be certain, but I'm not convinced this is worse now.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
You may be right Uberguy. I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of "end game" systems. Well, to be really honest, I despise them. I feel it brings out the worst in people in general. I'll admit this is largely due to my experiences in a rather insanely popular MMO with a fantasy theme.
So it may be me being touchy because of that. Here's to hoping it all calms down eventually.
Case in point: Build Up/Aim are generally considered "must have" powers for blasters, but if you DONT take it, it can make your life more difficult. You can still play the game normally, but that *some* situations your life would be easier if you had taken it.
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Keeping him on the platform is vital to being able to find him again after hitting a bifurcation, yeah. Unfortunately, the ATs most likely to have problems with this also generally have no way of keeping him on the platform.
Moreover, I do not believe that he spawns multiple Bifurcations at once, ever. Every time I saw the message, he spawned one. However, during the long fight, I know that I was away looking for a Bifurcation long enough sometimes that spawned another when I was not near him, and in those cases there is no warning popup. This makes it appear as if he has summoned more than one.
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He wasn't going anywhere, with me stacking multiple Tar Patches on the platform and leaving him a Dark Servant to play with. Keeping him on the platform so I could scout from a central position was an pillar of my strategy.
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Unlike some folks, I have a possible explanation for reports of multiple Bifurcations which no one has countered - that a spawning warning message was missed. I think people are mistaken in the conclusion they are drawing from finding multiple Bifurcations out after only seeing a single message.
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On top of that, Fluffy was also using Twilight Grasp (-regen), and otherwise debuffing Trapdoor.
Something to bear in mind, is that we've never before had content that was as specifically targeted at being an increasing ramp of difficulty the way Incarnate content is. We've had hard new "hard" content before, like the LRSF and STF, but they weren't billed as "just the beginning" in quite the same way. The "lrn2play" people are going to be out in force. I very much doubt our community is really suddenly changing into a less friendly version of itself. I think we're just discussing topic that's really near and dear to the "lrn2play" crowd to a degree never before seen, and they're being more vocal than before.
And honestly, that's assuming there's more of it than there has been in the past when things like the LRSF debuted. I seem to recall plenty of "lrn2play" posts back then. I can't be certain, but I'm not convinced this is worse now. |
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Your position is increasingly one of defensiveness, and I believe you see assaults on your person instead of on your position even where they do not exist.
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Is that my position or my person being attacked? I contend it's the latter. Defensive? Sure. But only *after* being attacked personally.
Honestly, I haven't such ill behavior since the jranger crowd imploded. Maybe they're back, I don't know, but their dismissive attitudes towards other players (and I don't mean me, here, but the others who've been attacked as noobs and idiots) is annoying in the extreme. I'm not a "stand there and watch it" kind of guy. Never have been.
It was. I'll bet, though, that you don't know what was behind it. It felt, well, wrong, to be all "you're wrong, stop it" on Christmas Eve. So the spirit of it was "great, now I've said all this crap, Merry Christmas." |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
At least this proves I wasn't defending you out of misplaced chivalry: it was honestly on the merits of the argument.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
And I have an explanation as to why you were not getting multiple bifurcations: The Dark Servant. Fluffly has a hold - Petrifying Gaze. I couldn't tell if you were using it yourself in the video, but Fluffy was. As pointed out multiple times in threads about Trapdoor, holds trump Trapdoor's bifurcation ability. Combined with the disorients and slows you were hitting him with, all I can say about you not getting multiple bifurcations is "No ****".
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I never once disoriented him. I do not have (and will never have) and clearly did not use Dark Pit. You cannot stack disorients from just Howling Twilight. I pretty clearly am using Power Mastery as my epic pool, so I have no other powers with which to disorient him.
The -recharge from HT lasts 30 seconds, and the power has a base recharge time of 180 seconds, down to around 80 for my character. He was +2, so the -recharge was at 80% effectiveness, around 50%. In any case, I'm not sure what -recharge would have to do with multiple simultaneous Bifurcation summons, which is what some folks are saying he does.
So in summary, what the heck are you talking about?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
TrueMetal wanted me to "DIAF" for responding with equal harshness to the critics. For those unfamiliar with internet lingo, DIAF means "Die in A Fire."
Is that my position or my person being attacked? I contend it's the latter. Defensive? Sure. But only *after* being attacked personally. Honestly, I haven't such ill behavior since the jranger crowd imploded. Maybe they're back, I don't know, but their dismissive attitudes towards other players (and I don't mean me, here, but the others who've been attacked as noobs and idiots) is annoying in the extreme. I'm not a "stand there and watch it" kind of guy. Never have been. |
Well, I can't discern the true reason behind the snarkiness, but I could detect it in two simple words. I can guess at intent, but that should be ample evidence to you that I don't just imagine I'm seeing things which aren't there. Parsing language is part of what I do. I used to have a job where it was *all* I did. If I weren't paid money for it, I'd do it anyway. Those folks are actually saying what I claim they're saying. Just pretend I'm a dog who can hear things you can't. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Admittedly a claws/SR isn't exactly a poor soloer, but that was my only 50 that had yet to face trapdoor.
He got 3 bifurcations out in total, the random spawning does make it slightly harder to track them down, but the only insp I used was a single green when he landed a couple of back to back hits.
(this character is not on my main server and has very few IOs slotted, certainly not softcapped to everything unless I use elude.)
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Mmm...
I must admit Trapdoor's difficulty as "is" to be just fine. I was able to defeat him with my Psi/Emp Defender, it took a long time and it was very annoying, but he was defeatable.
As long as we are alowed to lure him into the lava pool, so the damage can stack-up with the laughable damage my Emp Defender does, he can be defeated.
I have have observed after the third summoning of "little helpers", he tends to summon them within line of sight of himself and you. So you can stop attacking him, and take the next 8 rounds or more defeating his minions, after all you are a Defender and have a wet noodle for an attack. Yet they do go down, and you can continue to attack Trapdoor who did not heal because he remained in the lava pool and after the minion is destroyed after summoning, you can continue to whittle him down.
If the devs remove the use of the lava pool, then I sincerely doubt as a run of the mill Defender I could possibly solo him, a wet noodle is not much of an attack.
Stormy
In any case, the characters are a Gravity/Psi Dominator, and an Earth/Storm controller. The Gravity Dominator might be able to Hold him and push him into the lava, but dealing with the clones could be problematic. Especially since, for this encounter at least, the Singularity seems likely to be counterproductive. And while I do solo with the Earth/Storm controller, killing even a normal boss feels more like erosion than an actual fight. I can control the heck out of targets, but then finishing them off is a lot like just waiting for them to expire from boredom.
I'll admit Earth/Storm is probably going to be one of the harder combos to solo it with, unfortunately mine is only in the mid-30s so I can't test it at the moment. If I was doing it my strategy would be to load up on inspirations (probably the same combo I used in my previous test). Tactics-wise I'd try and lure him into the lava, and immobilize him there. Then I have my rock monster and lightning storm pound on him while I focus on taking out the clones (tossing attacks at him in between). Between Fossilize and the blast from the epic set it should be practical to take the clones down reasonably quickly. Hopefully he'd focus on the rock monster rather then me (which means I can heal him) but I'd probably bring my standard EB inspiration kit as well. Obviously this is based on the assumption that Stone Prison and Fossilize are slotted for damage, I realize some people don't do that but I figure if you're going to try and solo an EB you should probably slot your attacks for damage (as a side note the T1 and T2 controller powers are the one place I bother to slot IOs while leveling, a cheap frankenslot around level 30 makes a huge difference).
EDIT: This is of course completely ignoring the possibility of holding him but I'm sleepy . Also number time. His base regen is 11.6 hp/sec, each clone gives him an additional 58.1 hp/sec and 10% damage resistance. The lava does at least 60hp/sec to him (it was doing 20 damage per sec with a couple of clones out and it looked like at least 3 ticks a second). So theoretically the Earth/Storm should be able to solo him simply by immobilizing him in the lava and killing the closes at least slightly faster than he spawns them and since the clones have minion level stats a basic attack chain of fossilize -> epic blast -> fossilize should do kill them.
In short, I would like to see that changed.