Trapdoor is getting harder.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-11 24:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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"Wholly unattainable" win the biggest exaggeration of the thread award. And that's against some stiff competition.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
But at least you didn't suggest wholly unattainable PvP items.
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The Member of Vanguard arc takes about ten minutes total to do. All of my people run it the instant they hit 35. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Vanguard item? Probably costs some insane amount of Vanguard merits which would take me weeks to accrue and then it would turn out to be horribly limited in time or number of uses for the insane cost. I'm not sure I've even done the intro Vanguard arcs with that character. That makes it as equally attainable as a self-made team for me.
 But at least you didn't suggest wholly unattainable PvP items. |
An HVAS costs 250 Vanguard merits. Which is a lot, true, but what you do is find out when your server hosts Rikti ship raids, and get on one of those. Its not unheard of to come out of one of those with 800 or so Vanguard merits.
Saturday night is a popular time for those.
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What, pray tell, would these be?
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
But at least you didn't suggest wholly unattainable PvP items.
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I've been on a few raids. The most I've gotten out of one was 30 merits. I used to do the Vanguard intro on characters, but I stopped - I suppose after awhile I just didn't see the point.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
The Member of Vanguard arc takes about ten minutes total to do. All of my people run it the instant they hit 35.
An HVAS costs 250 Vanguard merits. Which is a lot, true, but what you do is find out when your server hosts Rikti ship raids, and get on one of those. Its not unheard of to come out of one of those with 800 or so Vanguard merits. Saturday night is a popular time for those. |
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Originally Posted by Emberly
What, pray tell, would these be?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I hate to be this guy, but... there are multiple ways to solve this problem. If you ultimately exclude yourself from all of them, I don't think it's reasonable to say the encounter is too hard.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Vanguard item? Probably costs some insane amount of Vanguard merits which would take me weeks to accrue and then it would turn out to be horribly limited in time or number of uses for the insane cost. I'm not sure I've even done the intro Vanguard arcs with that character. That makes it as equally attainable as a self-made team for me.
But at least you didn't suggest wholly unattainable PvP items. |
Probably the most readily attainable method after getting a team would be a mix of inspirations and the Envenomed Dagger temp power.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
how is it unattainable? i still don't get it.. PvP zones are actually pretty empty these days. And if your only getting 30 vanguard merits a mother ship raid, then something is wrong. Once you get in the middle of the ship, and merits come down like rain.
Yeah, being on a team and simply sitting there you should be getting hundreds of merits. Something doesn't smell right there. As far as PvP temps, that's your decision, but they certainly are not "unattainable" by any stretch of the imagination.
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If I have to resort to extreme measures in order to complete the encounter, I think it's more than reasonable to say the encounter is too hard. Indeed, I would say it's the very definition of "too hard." And for a solo encounter, anything that goes beyond my normal powers and inspirations is an extreme measure. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I hate to be this guy, but... there are multiple ways to solve this problem. If you ultimately exclude yourself from all of them, I don't think it's reasonable to say the encounter is too hard.
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The last time I had this sort of problem was back when the Patron arcs made you fight AVs and I had to ask for help. That has been the only time in all the time I've played where I started a team. I believe I was grumbling in threads about it for quite some time before I got worked up to the point of doing that. And then, of course, they changed the way it worked.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
how is it unattainable? i still don't get it.. PvP zones are actually pretty empty these days.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If I have to resort to extreme measures in order to complete the encounter, I think it's more than reasonable to say the encounter is too hard. Indeed, I would say it's the very definition of "too hard." And for a solo encounter, anything that goes beyond my normal powers and inspirations is an extreme measure.
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I just took out Trapdoor no more than a half hour ago, solo, with a defender. I did not use anything on him beyond my powers and a few inspirations.
I used a temp power to help take out the Honoree (Amy's Ward, Honoree hits like a truck), but otherwise got through the entire arc just fine, while solo, on a defender. The character in question is moderately IOed for ranged defense and end recovery, but is by no means uber.
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The last time I had this sort of problem was back when the Patron arcs made you fight AVs and I had to ask for help. That has been the only time in all the time I've played where I started a team. I believe I was grumbling in threads about it for quite some time before I got worked up to the point of doing that. And then, of course, they changed the way it worked. "Pretty empty" isn't empty enough. I made that mistake before, and I won't repeat it. I absolutely will not engage or be engaged in PvP. |
Yes, there are things in the game that you are going to need help for, it is the nature of any MMO. CoH is better than most in that you can solo a large percentage of the content, but you still occasionally need help. If you refuse to ever ask for help for any reason, the problem lies with you, not the content.
You won't set foot in a PvP zone, you won't put together a team, and you think using a temp power means the encounter is "too hard". If you think THIS is too hard, you're going to have a very rude awakening in the near future I think, because future Incarnate stuff is only going to get harder. The game should NOT be made easier to appease those players who think asking for help is a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Good for you. That doesn't change my aforementioned experience with my Blaster in the mission.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I just took out Trapdoor no more than a half hour ago, solo, with a defender. I did not use anything on him beyond my powers and a few inspirations.
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| Well, if part of the game requires things you flatly refuse to do for any reason, I guess you aren't going to get to enjoy that part of the game, are you? |
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| Yes, there are things in the game that you are going to need help for, it is the nature of any MMO. CoH is better than most in that you can solo a large percentage of the content, but you still occasionally need help. If you refuse to ever ask for help for any reason, the problem lies with you, not the content. |
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| You won't set foot in a PvP zone, you won't put together a team, and you think using a temp power means the encounter is "too hard". If you think THIS is too hard, you're going to have a very rude awakening in the near future I think, because future Incarnate stuff is only going to get harder. The game should NOT be made easier to appease those players who think asking for help is a bad thing. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I'm actually happy that for once when soloing some of my characters might actually need inspirations or even temp powers to complete an encounter with a non-AV enemy. I've had exactly zero problems so far with any of the characters I've done it with, I haven't even had to use any temp powers. So far I've done it with each hero AT (save for Kheldians).
I think incarnate content should be hard. It's supposed to be the end-game be it solo content or team, as long as it's related to being an incarnate it should ramp up the difficulty. It would be a mistake, in my opinion, to make it faceroll content just because some players refuse to use the tools given to them to complete it.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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The solo difficulty should not be lowered to appease people that flatly refuse to avail themselves of the tools available in the game to complete content.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
...The solo difficulty shouldn't be ramped up to appease the elitists and masochists.
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See, it works both ways.
Even in this extremely solo friendly MMO, there are times when you will need help, even if you don't like it. Either use the tools that are available or STFU. Don't try to change the game for the rest of us due to YOUR stubborn refusal to use the in game resources to their fullest extent.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Yes, it can conceivably work both ways. Hence my reply that you quoted which was itself in response to a statement very similar to your own. Congratulations on completing a circle which had already been completed.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
The solo difficulty should not be lowered to appease people that flatly refuse to avail themselves of the tools available in the game to complete content.
See, it works both ways. |
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| Even in this extremely solo friendly MMO, there are times when you will need help, even if you don't like it. Either use the tools that are available or STFU. Don't try to change the game for the rest of us due to YOUR stubborn refusal to use the in game resources to their fullest extent. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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If you cannot deal with a game changing and growing, then an MMO is not for you.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
The way you're wanting it kept is the game changer, I just want the difficulty brought back down to the status quo.
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The player base as a whole has been begging for content of this nature for years.
If you are married to the status quo, then by all means just keep playing all the content the game already has to offer, and ignore the new content the way you ignore PvP.
Those of us who have open minds about things changing will just keep enjoying all the new thing you are too stubborn to learn to do.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Don't try to change the game for the rest of us due to YOUR stubborn refusal to use the in game resources to their fullest extent.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
If you cannot deal with a game changing and growing, then an MMO is not for you.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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That is called "evolution". This is just the first part of the Incarnate content, future content will be just as hard, or harder. It is intended for high level characters that have already reached the peak of their power, and it is intentionally more difficult than "standard" content. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If the missions one can acquire solo are relatively consistent in difficulty, when there is one that is inconsistent the problem lies with the content. |
If the game stayed stagnant, like you want it, it would start bleeding off subscriptions as new games come out that offer new features and new challenges that players here might like better. It has been proven that an MMO that refuses to change with it's playerbase will fail more often than not.
This is the end game content that everyone and their grandmother has been requesting for literally YEARS now, if it were no different than the stuff we already had, what would be the point of even doing it?
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| As I understand it, the other Incarnate stuff thus far is made up of TFs which necessitate teams. The solo difficulty shouldn't be ramped up to appease the elitists and masochists. |
If you're this bent out of shape NOW, I can only imagine the temper tantrum you're going to throw when the next part of the Incarnate content is released and it's even harder than this.
Also worth noting: The solo difficulty has not been ramped up, because this stuff you're throwing a fit about is purely optional. It is just like IOs, PvP, Task Forces, and anything else in the game. There is nothing at all that says you HAVE to do this. So, if you think it's too hard....don't do it.
You should probably just save yourself the hassle and just ragequit now, because the Incarnate content is NOT going to get any easier just because YOU want it to be.
Seriously, I have never seen anyone complain as much about something they claim to enjoy as you do. You seem to think the devs are obligated to change the entire game just to make YOU happy. News flash: They aren't.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Tenzhi, if you happen to be on the Liberty server, send me a PM. I'll be glad to help you with the Ramiel Arc on either a Tanker or Dom. Both are IO'd to hell and back and with the two of us it shouldn't be a problem. I usually log in between 7:30 pm and 8:00 pm CST.
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Oh, I don't know. That seems to be the whole point of the Incarnate system. It's meant to provide something to do for the l33t endgame enthusiasts, not for players like you and me. It's a bit annoying that the devs are spending so much effort on content for a relatively small group of people, but since that achiever-oriented content was in short supply before, I can't really complain. I still have more than enough to do in the rest of the game.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
As I understand it, the other Incarnate stuff thus far is made up of TFs which necessitate teams. The solo difficulty shouldn't be ramped up to appease the elitists and masochists.
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I got all my level 50 characters through the arc (prior to the patch), and that's plenty for me. It wouldn't have bothered me if I hadn't been able to get through the Ramiel arc. I don't play my 50s much, so I don't plan to get much of anything out of the Incarnate system anyway.
It will be interesting to see if the Incarnate content can maintain some popularity, unlike, say, the PvP content (which both of us avoid like the plague).
I have to chuckle at the irony of people complaining about the difficulty of something that was specifically designed for the players looking for more of a challenge.
Yes, it's hard. It's supposed to be. If everything related to Incarnates was just as easy as everything else in the game, there would be no point to it even existing.
If you want to spend all your time clubbing baby seals (or the CoH equivalent), there is plenty of stuff to do already. So why are you crusading to have the difficulty lowered on the content that was designed from the beginning for those who want more challenging stuff to do?
You want easy? You have TONS of easy. Don't crap on the people who wanted more challenging when they finally got it after years of waiting.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I did not request it and both my grandmothers are dead so it's unlikely they requested it. As for any difference between the new stuff and the old, our characters' foes have been getting stronger along with our characters since level two, and we have been slotting our characters with various types of enhancements in hopes of gaining an edge over those foes for years now. Is it not so?
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This is the end game content that everyone and their grandmother has been requesting for literally YEARS now, if it were no different than the stuff we already had, what would be the point of even doing it?
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I personally don't think Trapdoor is hard. He's easy for some of my characters and tedious for others.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I have to chuckle at the irony of people complaining about the difficulty of something that was specifically designed for the players looking for more of a challenge.
Yes, it's hard. It's supposed to be. If everything related to Incarnates was just as easy as everything else in the game, there would be no point to it even existing. If you want to spend all your time clubbing baby seals (or the CoH equivalent), there is plenty of stuff to do already. So why are you crusading to have the difficulty lowered on the content that was designed from the beginning for those who want more challenging stuff to do? You want easy? You have TONS of easy. Don't crap on the people who wanted more challenging when they finally got it after years of waiting. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Thereason you are running ship raids and netting 30 merits is because your character has not run the extremely short-n-easy Member of Vanguard arc. Running this arc means the difference between netting 30 merits on a ship raid, and 700-1000 merits. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I've been on a few raids. The most I've gotten out of one was 30 merits. I used to do the Vanguard intro on characters, but I stopped - I suppose after awhile I just didn't see the point.
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Those merits are mighty handy, not only for HVAS but for purchasing costume parts, including but not limited to the glowing Talsorian weapons.
Its really easy, that's why I suggested taking the raid route. I will admit grinding solo through RWZ story arcs for merits can be really tedious, especially on anything prone to sleeps or mezzes.
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And that is a limitation you are placing on yourself, and nothing more. That limitation is not representative of the width and breadth of opportunities available to you in the game. It's unreasonable to expect that anyone should be able to cordon off entire swaths of the game in such self-imposed limitations and then declare that something is too hard. It's "too hard" in large part because you're handicapping yourself in too many ways. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If I have to resort to extreme measures in order to complete the encounter, I think it's more than reasonable to say the encounter is too hard. Indeed, I would say it's the very definition of "too hard." And for a solo encounter, anything that goes beyond my normal powers and inspirations is an extreme measure.
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Personally, I think +regen, specifically, is a touchy tool for the devs to use to make an encounter "challenging". It's extremely sensitive to the effective DPS of the players facing it, and whether or not they have access to -regen debuffs. However, even solo, the tools for overcoming it in this encounter do exist. A temp power with fairly potent -regen is cheap and plentiful on the market. Many if not most of us are willing and able to get a summonable EB from one of two sources. And, at the upper end of performance, there are IOs. Including getting a team, that's at least five available ways to tackle the problem.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Are saying you you get 700 to 1000 merits for the Vanguard arc? or that you get that many from ship raids *after* doing the Vanguard arc?|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Thereason you are running ship raids and netting 30 merits is because your character has not run the extremely short-n-easy Member of Vanguard arc. Running this arc means the difference between netting 30 merits on a ship raid, and 700-1000 merits.
Those merits are mighty handy, not only for HVAS but for purchasing costume parts, including but not limited to the glowing Talsorian weapons. Its really easy, that's why I suggested taking the raid route. I will admit grinding solo through RWZ story arcs for merits can be really tedious, especially on anything prone to sleeps or mezzes. |
Either way, I've never gotten anywhere near that number of merits for doing anything in the RWZ. I'd probably have to add the V-merits earned across all my characters who've been through the RWZ content to get more than 1,000. I did a lot RWZ grinding with my Brute in order to buy a few costume pieces I wanted, so he's probably responsible for half the V-merits I've earned. I never saw anything in the triple digits except after days and days of missions and arcs.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
But at least you didn't suggest wholly unattainable PvP items.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound