Trapdoor is getting harder.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-11 24:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I dunno. Soon as I come across an EB with a health bar like that, I'll keep track and let ya know.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Sooooo.... how many inspirations drop when you are alone in a room with an EB whose health-bar is made of solid adamantium...? I know for my Def the answer was "zero," but perhaps you have secret techniques for getting insps to drop without NPC deaths involved.
Being forced to leave a mission multiple times to restock on insps is the definition of "failure of design" to me, but whatever. |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Or alternatively if you know you are going to face a tough EB stock up on inspirations before hand, it's not rocket science. In my testing with my no-primary TA/A (discussed above) the first time I went in with whatever inspirations I had on hand to give me a baseline (I was pretty sure I'd fail but I wanted to confirm) I gave it a good try and got him to 50% . The second time I went in with my standard "EB pack" but could not beat him down (I think missed a bifurcation somewhere). Third time I reset the mission (to give me a clean start bifurcation-wise) and my standard "EB pack" was enough to beat him with about 8 inspirations left.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Sooooo.... how many inspirations drop when you are alone in a room with an EB whose health-bar is made of solid adamantium...? I know for my Def the answer was "zero," but perhaps you have secret techniques for getting insps to drop without NPC deaths involved.
Being forced to leave a mission multiple times to restock on insps is the definition of "failure of design" to me, but whatever. |
So in my case, yes I had to leave to refill but that was mostly because I screwed up. If I'd gone in with my normal EB pack from the start it wouldn't have been an issue. Inspirations in this game are like potions in a lot of other games. You can manage without them most of the time but sometimes you need them. If you know ahead of time it's not a problem but if you don't (or get the mix wrong) you might have to make a second trip. Fortunately there's a vendor right next to the mission door, isn't that convenient?
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yeah, never mind that practically the vast majority of this game's normal content can be solo'd.|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Why do people constantly think that "MMO" means "YOU MUST TEAM!" Or that people that don't want to team up are somehow anti-social trogs?
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one bump in the road and people want to call "foul"
and some people were already complaining they couldn't beat Trapdoor before this change, when he was stupidly easy...the only thing that's changed is that the whines got louder.
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Went in with a full compliment of insps, thanks for the advice. I've been in the game since 2006 and I don't go face an EB without inspirations. Ever.| Or alternatively if you know you are going to face a tough EB stock up on inspirations before hand, it's not rocket science. |
Once again, being forced to exit a mission to get more insps is a failure of design, not least because while you're out there scrounging for inspirations, the EB is regenning back up to full health. I know a lot of you think this is the coolest thing ever, but not all of us do.
Elite Bosses are not by normal design, much less normal content, if you were having to refill inspirations to beat a single Boss, I would agree it's a bad design. I still find it personally weird that of my 50's I ran...my Elec/EM Blaster and my Kin/Psi Defender had more issues soloing Honoree than they did with Trapdoor.
I highly doubt one has to scrounge up much Inf to get inspirations at the vender next to Ramiel.
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Now if you could not defeat the EB with only one tray of inspirations then I would consider it a problem but under the circumstances I don't. Zerging an EB is sometimes an option in this game (which is unusual for an MMO) but in general I consider it bad design if an EB requires it. Trapdoor is not such an EB, it's perfectly possible to defeat him with a single tray of inspirations.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Went in with a full compliment of insps, thanks for the advice. I've been in the game since 2006 and I don't go face an EB without inspirations. Ever.
Once again, being forced to exit a mission to get more insps is a failure of design, not least because while you're out there scrounging for inspirations, the EB is regenning back up to full health. I know a lot of you think this is the coolest thing ever, but not all of us do. |
There is a general assumption in the game that squishier characters probably will need inspirations for tough bosses, that's pretty much a given. Trapdoor is on the slightly higher end of the scale so you need a bit more care in selection of inspirations. If you have to leave the mission to restock then one of the following likely applied:
1. You got unlucky and the RNG killed you
2. You had a poor selection of inspirations
3. You used poor tactics
I don't consider any of those to be a problem with the boss. If Trapdoor was impossible to solo without tier 3 inspirations or required more than 20 tier 1 inspirations I would consider it a problem. However I was able to solo him on a Defender without using my Primary at all and only using 12 or so tier1 inspirations so that isn't the case.
I don't see what you expect the devs to do to make it so you never have to leave to get inspirations, I guess they could add an inspiration vendor in the mission but that seems kinda silly.
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He doesn't need to spawn an infinite number of clones, and he doesn't need to be spawning new ones every whatever seconds if he's not taking damage. Especially if there's no one even in the mission at the moment. As I said, my Mastermind beat him without luring him out of the room, but only because the damn clones eventually stopped spawning. IE, I had to fight it as a war of attrition, and he eventually ran out of pets before I did. That will no longer happen. Maybe my experience was unusual, but my zombies wasted an incredible amount of time in that room trying to find their way around when I sent them after a clone. By the time they'd reached it and killed it, he'd spawned the next one, every single time.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't see what you expect the devs to do to make it so you never have to leave to get inspirations, I guess they could add an inspiration vendor in the mission but that seems kinda silly. |
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IMHO if it has to be fought as a war of attrition that's bad design however I'm not at all convinced it does have to be fought that way. I would prefer it if he automatically reset when disengaged rather than keep spawning clones (i.e. all clones despawn and he heals to full health) to save people having to reset the mission but I don't think that's possible with the current tech. |
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
He doesn't need to spawn an infinite number of clones, and he doesn't need to be spawning new ones every whatever seconds if he's not taking damage. Especially if there's no one even in the mission at the moment. As I said, my Mastermind beat him without luring him out of the room, but only because the damn clones eventually stopped spawning. IE, I had to fight it as a war of attrition, and he eventually ran out of pets before I did. That will no longer happen. Maybe my experience was unusual, but my zombies wasted an incredible amount of time in that room trying to find their way around when I sent them after a clone. By the time they'd reached it and killed it, he'd spawned the next one, every single time.
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I don't know what to tell you about your Zombies, but I'll point out that Furio related above that he did it with a Necromancer and didn't have any issues with sending off his GKs to kill the clones so it might have been a positioning issue.
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Your statement is far too all-inclusive. You're speaking for all ATs and all possible slotting, and that's just too broad, I am sorry. | IMHO if it has to be fought as a war of attrition that's bad design however I'm not at all convinced it does have to be fought that way |
Maybe its not a war of attrition TO YOU. It wasn't for certain of my alts. For some of them it WAS though, and no offense but what you think had zero to do with what went down at the time.
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| Now if you could not defeat the EB with only one tray of inspirations then I would consider it a problem but under the circumstances I don't. |
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i think it's possible to have an NPC's pets on a timer so that they despawn after a set time. If his bifurcations had a lifespan of four minutes he'd be a bit less annoying while still being difficult to defeat. On the plus side going to the hospital wouldn't have the potential to make resetting the mission a necessity.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
IMHO if it has to be fought as a war of attrition that's bad design however I'm not at all convinced it does have to be fought that way. I would prefer it if he automatically reset when disengaged rather than keep spawning clones (i.e. all clones despawn and he heals to full health) to save people having to reset the mission but I don't think that's possible with the current tech.
I don't know what to tell you about your Zombies, but I'll point out that Furio related above that he did it with a Necromancer and didn't have any issues with sending off his GKs to kill the clones so it might have been a positioning issue. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Insinuating that veteran players are total idiots. Awesome.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Or alternatively if you know you are going to face a tough EB stock up on inspirations before hand, it's not rocket science.
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Dear Santa, for Christmas can you make morons shut their pieholes?
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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There are no tactics for this encounter. There was one, but it was removed. So that insult is, you know, retarded.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
3. You used poor tactics
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Remaining useable tactics:|
Originally Posted by Ironik
There are no tactics for this encounter. There was one, but it was removed. So that insult is, you know, retarded.
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1. Kill Clones
2. Lure Trapdoor into Lava
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Which are both hilarious fun.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Remaining useable tactics:
1. Kill Clones 2. Lure Trapdoor into Lava |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Adeon: If you have the opportunity to test it, I can think of two AT/powersets that might have significant problems with Trapdoor. I have both, but at very low levels, so testing either isn't an option for the observable future.
In any case, the characters are a Gravity/Psi Dominator, and an Earth/Storm controller. The Gravity Dominator might be able to Hold him and push him into the lava, but dealing with the clones could be problematic. Especially since, for this encounter at least, the Singularity seems likely to be counterproductive. And while I do solo with the Earth/Storm controller, killing even a normal boss feels more like erosion than an actual fight. I can control the heck out of targets, but then finishing them off is a lot like just waiting for them to expire from boredom.
*Edit* I should specify that I assume both will have issues attempting to solo him, obviously any drawbacks would be irrelevant if you bring another player along.
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That's not what he did. You can certainly infer that from it, but it's not clear that the implication was so dramatic.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Insinuating that veteran players are total idiots. Awesome.
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And I can tell you from experience, some veteran players are total idiots. Present company need not be considered examples of this, but veteran status in the game says nothing about either expertise at the game or more general wit.
Frankly, it's apparent to that you're not really interested in doing much more than griping, arguing with people do take the other side in the argument, and blowing what they actually say out of proportion into something rather different.
Merry Christmas.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I have no good characters who can test this, but people are reporting that holding him stops him from bifurcating. This seems surprising to me, but it could explain why some people are reporting that he is so much easier for their controllers. Edit: By the way, Drain Psyche is one of the nastiest -regen debuffs in the game outside those available to people like Rad Emission, Dark Miasma and Traps characters. It should offer some respite even if you can't use holds to stop him from duping himself.|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
In any case, the characters are a Gravity/Psi Dominator, and an Earth/Storm controller. The Gravity Dominator might be able to Hold him and push him into the lava, but dealing with the clones could be problematic. Especially since, for this encounter at least, the Singularity seems likely to be counterproductive. And while I do solo with the Earth/Storm controller, killing even a normal boss feels more like erosion than an actual fight. I can control the heck out of targets, but then finishing them off is a lot like just waiting for them to expire from boredom.
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I should point out that, if you have a character that plays as you describe for your Earth/Storm, that character is begging to have a team. I don't mean to be insulting, but that's one of those things like the old, bad joke about telling the doctor that it hurts when you do something, so he tells you not to do it. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to solo a character like that in general. Taking it to a known hard fight just seems to be asking for heartache.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Which brings us right back around. I don't want to team up. Not for this mission, not for most missions. I *do* occaisionally do so, but it isn't something that happens often. I don't know a large number of people that I want to do missions with, and PUGs, even from the Global channels that I lurk on, mostly just end up feeding my Ignore list. Spending time on my Earth/Storm solo is still less aggravating to me than spending time around players that I don't know.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I should point out that, if you have a character that plays as you describe for your Earth/Storm, that character is begging to have a team. I don't mean to be insulting, but that's one of those things like the old, bad joke about telling the doctor that it hurts when you do something, so he tells you not to do it. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to solo a character like that in general. Taking it to a known hard fight just seems to be asking for heartache.
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FWIW, I don't think it's at all reasonable that he summons Bifurcations forevermore once aggro'd, even if you leave and he is no longer engaged. I could certainly be wrong, but I strongly suspect that this is some artifact of his implementation - it doesn't seem like a reasonable encounter design goal. (For that matter, I think the same thing of the eternal Rikti summons in the Weakened Honoree mission, but I personally find the implications of that summoning less drastic than those of Trapdoor with, oh, twenty active Bifurcations.)
In short, I would like to see that changed.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Well, I really hope you won't take this the wrong way, but that's your choice. You're choosing to play something that's painful to solo when what you basically do is solo. There's no implicit guarantee that's going to be successful at all content, and it's likely to be a slog at all times compared to, well, an awful lot of alternatives.|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Which brings us right back around. I don't want to team up. Not for this mission, not for most missions. I *do* occaisionally do so, but it isn't something that happens often. I don't know a large number of people that I want to do missions with, and PUGs, even from the Global channels that I lurk on, mostly just end up feeding my Ignore list. Spending time on my Earth/Storm solo is still less aggravating to me than spending time around players that I don't know.
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There are builds in this game that really are pretty clearly weak solo, and most useful helping a team get stuff done. If you play them solo, you have to expect to be weak, and someone who's weak isn't going to be able to overcome all obstacles. And let me be clear here, I'm not using "weak" in some elitist sense to denigrate you as a player. I mean your character is not a strong combatant.
I solo a lot. I have a pretty strong solo preference streak in me. I make a lot of things I think a lot of people wouldn't play solo be pretty decent at it. But there are some things I just wouldn't build to play solo, because I know it won't work well.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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And for the most part, I don't play AT/set combos that I know don't solo well. I have zero Defenders, and no Tankers. (Yes, I know, both can solo. But a Brute or Corruptor has access to most of the same powers and are orders of magnitude easier for me to use.) It's also the reason why my only Force Field character is a Mastermind - that set is very nearly useless solo, even compared to the other defense-buff sets. (Or at least it seems that way to me. I'm sure someone will helpfully explain how I'm wrong and it's totally awesome.)|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
There are builds in this game that really are pretty clearly weak solo, and most useful helping a team get stuff done. If you play them solo, you have to expect to be weak, and someone who's weak isn't going to be able to overcome all obstacles. And let me be clear here, I'm not using "weak" in some elitist sense to denigrate you as a player. I mean your character is not a strong combatant.
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That particular character is an exception, in that I had a concept that I felt required an Earth/Storm controller. IE, the character I wanted to make, didn't seem to make any sense to me with any other powers.
In any case, some people are claiming that any character can solo Trapdoor, and that any case where someone can't is a failure on the part of the player, not the design of the encounter. So I put that forth as an example of a character that I know *can* solo, and for whom I suspect the difficulty won't be trivial. If Holds actually stop him from duplicating, then the Animated Stone can probably deal with Trapdoor. If it can't, or if one slips through, then dealing with the clone while keeping him from making any more could be a problem.
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I offer my husband up as support of your statement.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
And I can tell you from experience, some veteran players are total idiots. Present company need not be considered examples of this, but veteran status in the game says nothing about either expertise at the game or more general wit.
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But it's not that way for everyone. Or even most. So I guess it's more of a "failure to plan". What's that saying..... If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Being forced to leave a mission multiple times to restock on insps is the definition of "failure of design" to me, but whatever.
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| Once again, being forced to exit a mission to get more insps is a failure of design, |
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Uberguy: I should also specify that the Earth/Storm is currently at about level 24, and the last time I played the character was before Inherent Fitness. I have used the freespec to take Freezing Rain earlier, and I've added Air Superiority, which I didn't have before. (The character is one of my older ones, and honestly predates most of what I know about the game and how powersets work. As little as that may be.) So I've only played it at a point where slotting is minimal, and there aren't many other options for damage dealing powers from outside the sets. A friend who actually farms with an Earth controller assures me that the DPS goes up greatly once the Animated Stone and Tornado and APP attacks are available.
Being forced to leave a mission multiple times to restock on insps is the definition of "failure of design" to me, but whatever.