Issue 19's Inherant Fitness: The concerns
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-09-07 05:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
My concerns about inherent fitness:
Oh noes, what three fun powers will I take instead of swift, hurdle and stamina?
=P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Here's Bob thinking out loud, "If I was a Dev...
...I'd seriously consider putting a set of "Free Respec" Contacts in the game for a month... click them...sey "Yes" to a Respec ... Respec... and do it as often as you want for the month this goes live... save a ton of troubles"
That's my theory anyway... probably someone would whine it devalues their Respec recipe they just put on the market...
The final line of a post by Sweet_Sarah on Liberty
"Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes."
Quote:
I have to admit, the "Yay I just hit 16, now time to go train my exciting new power, Health!!!" joke never fails to impress team mates ;-)
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
My concerns about inherent fitness:
Oh noes, what three fun powers will I take instead of swift, hurdle and stamina? =P |
Nahh, that's what Mids and the test server are for. Plot it out in Mids, test it on test after copying over After you get the freespec, get it right there, then do it on live.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
One legitmate question raised at the press talk was that of multiple respecs for multiple builds. If only could give you 2 freespecs, and link them to each of your builds. Not that it bothers me in particular I have a lovely assortment of respecs to keep me going, but others might find it beneficial, especially if they aren't Vets.
|
Originally Posted by b0bcatmc
Here's Bob thinking out loud, "If I was a Dev...
...I'd seriously consider putting a set of "Free Respec" Contacts in the game for a month... click them...sey "Yes" to a Respec ... Respec... and do it as often as you want for the month this goes live... save a ton of troubles" That's my theory anyway... probably someone would whine it devalues their Respec recipe they just put on the market... |
Quote:
I've got something that will help with this. I normally take a screen shot so I know where I had my powers originally, then after the respec, do /cleartray. This will put everything back into your Powers window where you can pull them down instead of trying to shuffle them around.
|
Originally Posted by Feycat
This is the only concern that I have. It would be AWESOME if they'd re-work the respec process so that your power trays don't end up full of every single temp power or vet inherent you have and your actual powers are all jumbled up or pushed off the trays. I can really deal with the rest of the respec process just fine, but what it does to the power trays is awful >.<
|
Quote:
No, not really.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Ok so "melodrama" = expressing an opinion in your book.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I know I'm mostly a lone voice in decrying the dumbing down of a great game - and commercial imperatives will have their way-
Carry on like this and Ms Bianco will be popping round your house to spoon feed you custard every time you log on and Mr Miller will be giving you a nice foot rub after your show. Lord knows what the Ocho will do! |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I personally never had to rest after every mob. If you did then I'd suggest learn to play and stop attacking other people for having a different opinion to yours.
|
So, let's see shall we?
Turning off sprint in a fight? Check
Using brawl? Check
Popping blues? Check
Skipping toggles that I wouldnt need until end-game/damage toggles? Check
Kindly educate me as to what super secret special thing you do that the vast majority of other players dont that mean you never get stuffed for endurance pre-20. I'm dying to know.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
How does it make the game easier? Well it gives at least ONE extra pool or power available to be chosen which means at the very minimum you get an extra something to make life easier. Cuz sure as what my dog does on the lawn smells there's nothing in the power pools that make things harder. The fact that to quote "so many people consider Stamina necessary" doesn't equate to "that is bad." To follow that through by your logic implies that "so many tanks consider Taunt to be necessary" that it should be made an inherent without needing to choose the power for example.
|
Stamina is a pool power. Pool powers, by definition, are supposed to be optional extras, to add flavour to a character. The Fitness pool was a waste of three power slots that could otherwise be spent on primary/secondary or true optional powers. Having to take 'optional extras' just to function above level 20 without heavy IO investment flies in the face of what the Devs have shown to be their design goals.
So, now players get to pick three powers that, otherwise, they might not normally have considered. Maybe they'll take primary/secondary powers they never used to like, like Hand Clap or Beanbag (as examples, im sure people do take them already. Purely from experience, I dont see them often) Or maybe they'll take Leadership, medicine, etc. Which will fulfill the Devs stated aim that they want people to experiment and get as much use out of powers as possible.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I was none of these and yes I take Stamina like I do a travel power and like I take a primary attach chain. Just cuz you need it doesn't mean it's broken. But if you can't play with or without it maybe you need to revise your playstyle.
|
'Cool factor' does not describe being stuck gasping for end because your recovery without stamina at the later levels is abominable. This is a Super Hero game. No, that doesn't rule out non-powered heroes, but even they will be fitter than average by necessity. This is not a game for 'gets out of breath after one rough fight man' or 'not very active girl'.
And while the first part of my post was maybe a little sarcastic, the rest was only intended as a counter arguement. But hey, if you want to get lary about it, by all means, I can deal with that.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
You big jerk. You made me snort my pepsi.
|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
I don't get the "no extra slots" complaint. Just pick three powers and don't slot them and you're still better off than you were previously.
It sounds like saying "Here's the thing: I have sections in my wallet for singles, fives, tens and twenties. You just gave me three free $2 bills and I wish you hadn't done that unless you were going to buy me a new wallet with more compartments." |
Quote:
Thanks for the snark.|
Originally Posted by The_Salt
You're going to pick those powers, then you're going to move them off of your power bar and never, ever use them.
WHAM, you're right back to playing your character the way you usually do. Me, I'll be enjoying a couple of extra toys to play with. |
I, for one, don't pick powers I don't intend to use. Even if it's rarely, I still use them.
I intend to have the new toys to play with as well, but I would rather be able to enjoy them without reducing the effectiveness of all my other powers. And if you give me that "Then don't put slots in the new powers!" nonsense, I'm will kindly thank you to stop playing at being so naive. Sure, I can play with powers without ever enhancing them, but then they're hardly as effective as typical play would require.
With the current slotting, with a typically expected Stamina build, I'm able to six-slot and five-slot most of my main powers and four-slot any ones that are emergency or utility. I won't be able to do that with most builds when I have three new powers to establish to a basic "four slot" potential.
Why is four slots basic? For "attacks," that's one accuracy, one damage or mez, one endurance reduction and one recharge rate. For Toggles, that's two Endurance Reductions and two of whatever the toggle improves. So, that'll be at least nine more slots I need to maintain the rest of my powers at their current optimums and utilize these three new powers.
Frankly, I feel this is a very valid concern.
Don't get me wrong, I won't be surprised when we don't get extra enhancement slots. I'm also not sad to see Stamina going Inherent (quite the opposite, actually, I'm extremely overjoyed). I feel it's bad I have to say that last bit; apparently "raising concerns" is tantamount to shouting "Dooooooom!"
I still feel that you can't simply slap the powers into a new section, leave the rest of the system as-is, and say "Okay! It's good to go!"
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Quote:
Don't let the responses in this thread get to you Oneirohero. This is a hot button topic right now and lots of people have very strong views on the subject. Those people also like to express themselves rather vocally.|
Originally Posted by Oneirohero
I'm sorry I compared Swift to Speed Boost hyperbole, I really am! *mashes [Beguile] while running away*
I'm sure whatever changes will come our way, I'll get used to it eventually. I wish people would actually respond to threads positively until they've given a reason to bring on the pain. At least I didn't pull a GKaiser! |
None of it is aimed at you personally.
I look forward to this change. I'm just wondering if the base values for the powers will remain the same.
Justice
Levels 1-20 are hard? Really? Slow paced, maybe, and that's if you insist on soloing the whole time. But they're aren't difficult.
But I'm not as crazy excited about this as I figured I might be.
The main thing I do not like is making the -entirety- of the fitness pool an inherant, as opposed to something like just altering Stamina. Sure the Swift and Health levels are rather boring, but I never take Hurdle. Ever. I don't want that extra jump automatically added in to my characters.
Probably a long shot, but I wonder if they'd do something like make Health and/or Stamina inherant, then change the Fitness Pool to a Travel pool, keeping Health and Hurdle there, and adding powers to boost Teleport and Fly. *shrug*
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
Quote:
This is easily solved by typing in /cleartray after a respec...I hated having to sort everything out before so now I just start fresh instead. |
Originally Posted by Feycat
It would be AWESOME if they'd re-work the respec process so that your power trays don't end up full of every single temp power or vet inherent you have and your actual powers are all jumbled up or pushed off the trays. I can really deal with the rest of the respec process just fine, but what it does to the power trays is awful >.<
|
As for inherent fitness, while I disagree with most of the complaints presented, I am almost as tired of hearing the same counterarguments over and over again. I wish they hadn't let the cat out of the bag until more details could be presented, if only to calm those who think an associated nerf is inevitable. A Q&A and FAQ about just this issue would be welcome right about now.
The simplest way to address this concern is to simply make the new inherent swurdle a toggle with zero endurance cost.
Quote:
My feelings exactly. I love love love our Devs. But this is something I am not looking forward to if every new character I make from now on is forced to have Hurdle. Inherants like Brawl, Walk, Ninja Run, etc. are all toggles. The Fitness pool powers are always on. Please let us choose to take Fitness pool powers or not. Choice is a good thing.
|
Originally Posted by Partsman
I will also voice my concern here. I always take Swift on the way to Stamina, but I abhor and avoid Hurdle. I cannot stand the speed burst in the forward motion when you are just trying to get over a 1 foot ledge. When it is paired with Combat Jumping, it is barely tolerable, but not by much. I hope we have the option of "claiming" these powers at level 1 or 2, rather than having them forced on us.
|
So, what options are there for these new power picks?
Well, it opens up another power pool so your options are:
Concealment
Stealth - one endurance, or an LotG +recharge, or a karma -kb
Grant Invisibility - one endurance, or an LotG +recharge, or a karma -kb
Invisibility - one endurance, or an LotG +recharge, or a karma -kb
Phase Shift - one recharge
Flight
Hover - one endurance, or an LotG +recharge, or a karma -kb, or one speed, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
Air Superiority - one acc, or one acc/dam HO or IO
Fly - one endurance, or one speed, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
Group Fly - one endurance, or one speed, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
Fighting
Boxing - one acc, or one acc/dam HO or IO
Kick - one acc, or one acc/dam HO or IO
Tough - one endurance, or one resistance, or a steadfast +3 def, or any resistance IO, or an HO
Weave - one endurance, or an LotG +recharge, or a karma -kb
Leadership
Maneuvers - one endurance, or an LotG +recharge, or a karma -kb
Assault - one endurance
Tactics - one endurance or any tohit IO
Vengeance - one endurance, or an LotG +recharge, or a karma -kb
Leaping
Jump Kick - one acc, or one acc/dam HO or IO
Combat Jumping - one endurance, or an LotG +recharge, or a karma -kb, or an HO
Super Jump - one endurance, or one speed, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
Acrobatics - one endurance or one KB
Medicine
Aid Other - one heal, or one recharge, or one range, or one interrupt, or any heal IO, or an HO
Stimulant - one recharge, or one range, or one interrupt
Aid Self - one heal, or one recharge, or one interrupt, or any heal IO, or an HO
Resuscitate - one recharge
Presence
Challenge - one accuracy, or one range, or one recharge, or one taunt, or any taunt IO
Provoke - one accuracy, or one range, or one recharge, or one taunt, or any taunt IO
Intimidate - One accuracy, or one recharge, or one fear
Invoke Panic - One accuracy, or one recharge, or one fear, or any fear IO
Speed
Flurry - one acc, or one acc/dam HO or IO
Hasten - one recharge
Super Speed - one endurance, or one speed, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
Whirlwind - one endurance, or any KB IO (especially the force feedback +recharge)
Teleportation
Recall Friend - one endurance, or one range, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
Teleport Foe - one endurance, or one range, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
Teleport - one endurance, or one range, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
Team Teleport - one endurance, or one range, or a stealth, or a winter's gift, or an HO
And that's just the power pools. There are lots of "skippable" powers in primaries and secondaries that you can now pick up and use on a lark or that once in a blue moon ocassion -- something like repel for example. And then there are all the choices in epics and patron pools, but most of those probably need more than one slot. Then again, you could get a patron pet and sick a recharge in it.
And if you can find one or two slots elsewhere, it opens up all kinds of possibilities with sets to provide HP, Regen, defense, damage, etc.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Loving the fact we are getting the fitness pool for free.
Why?
Was it broken?
Did we truly need it to be given free?
I don't think so, I'm hoping because what ever is around the corner is a bad *** and we will need it and I hope whatever it is, is so tough that people are crying about it on the forums for months and months.
This game needs a challenge giving the fitness pool for free does make it easier as now we get to choose 3 more powers and good slotters will be able to fit the 3 powers in pretty easily and make them useful, I know I will.
So to the devs make the game harder, much harder, make people cry, then this change might grab my attention
Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
what i think....
I think I'LL WAIT TO FIND OUT MORE INFORMATION FIRST.
duhhh
Quote:
i am laughing at you|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Thanks for the snark.
I, for one, don't pick powers I don't intend to use. Even if it's rarely, I still use them. I intend to have the new toys to play with as well, but I would rather be able to enjoy them without reducing the effectiveness of all my other powers. And if you give me that "Then don't put slots in the new powers!" nonsense, I'm will kindly thank you to stop playing at being so naive. Sure, I can play with powers without ever enhancing them, but then they're hardly as effective as typical play would require. With the current slotting, with a typically expected Stamina build, I'm able to six-slot and five-slot most of my main powers and four-slot any ones that are emergency or utility. I won't be able to do that with most builds when I have three new powers to establish to a basic "four slot" potential. Why is four slots basic? For "attacks," that's one accuracy, one damage or mez, one endurance reduction and one recharge rate. For Toggles, that's two Endurance Reductions and two of whatever the toggle improves. So, that'll be at least nine more slots I need to maintain the rest of my powers at their current optimums and utilize these three new powers. Frankly, I feel this is a very valid concern. Don't get me wrong, I won't be surprised when we don't get extra enhancement slots. I'm also not sad to see Stamina going Inherent (quite the opposite, actually, I'm extremely overjoyed). I feel it's bad I have to say that last bit; apparently "raising concerns" is tantamount to shouting "Dooooooom!" I still feel that you can't simply slap the powers into a new section, leave the rest of the system as-is, and say "Okay! It's good to go!" |
i am laughing so hard
this is the stupidest argument against inherent fitness in the entire world
i mean, your argument says, "I MUST HAVE MY CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!" The idea that you ABSOLUTELY MUST have four slots in every power is ridiculous!
Quote:
I suppose you're right about it being a "Cake" argument, but you're wrong about it being against Inherent Fitness. I stated quite clearly that I'm not against it.|
Originally Posted by The_Salt
i am laughing at you
i am laughing so hard this is the stupidest argument against inherent fitness in the entire world i mean, your argument says, "I MUST HAVE MY CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!" The idea that you ABSOLUTELY MUST have four slots in every power is ridiculous! |
I'm against it being a simple shift, because it's going to damage builds more than players expect it to.
And no, not every powerset requires four slots to be effective, but if you intend to have a lot of powers that do more for you than a temporary boost to your effectiveness like Aim or Build Up, then you're going to want to maximize your effectiveness, and you won't be able to do that with the slots you have available to these three new options.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Quote:
Someone did provide a very nice list of some power pool selections, and while I question some of them as being worthwhile at 1 slot, it is a helpful list of utility powers.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I suppose you're right about it being a "Cake" argument, but you're wrong about it being against Inherent Fitness. I stated quite clearly that I'm not against it.
I'm against it being a simple shift, because it's going to damage builds more than players expect it to. And no, not every powerset requires four slots to be effective, but if you intend to have a lot of powers that do more for you than a temporary boost to your effectiveness like Aim or Build Up, then you're going to want to maximize your effectiveness, and you won't be able to do that with the slots you have available to these three new options. |
In general, I think the issue is that they don't really want this to be a case where it lets a character add another attack into their rotation [at 50]. It's more to free up the characters to select more of their attack powers before 20, and open up a few more utility power selections which were what the fitness powers really were before anyway.
Let's Dance!
Quote:
Having three new powers isn't going to damage any sensible person.
|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
I'm against it being a simple shift, because it's going to damage builds more than players expect it to.
|
Quote:
I think we should just wait and see what happens. All this speculation will not change what the changes will be. Ultimately that is up to the designers and our fate is in their hands. Besides I find playing the game much more fun than talking about it. |
Originally Posted by Oneirohero
What do you guys think?
|
Quote:
Well, if slots are kept as-is, then these utility powers you're describing are going to be sorely hamstrung, see limited use, or the entire build will face a global shift toward lost capability. It won't be a massive shift, but I'm more than certain players will be scratching their heads, wondering why they can't fit one more accuracy enhancement into their attacks or one more defense into their Maneuvers. They'll be wondering why they have so many Sixth IOs from various sets and why they suddenly can't get those stacked bonuses they were using so easily before.|
Originally Posted by reiella
Someone did provide a very nice list of some power pool selections, and while I question some of them as being worthwhile at 1 slot, it is a helpful list of utility powers.
In general, I think the issue is that they don't really want this to be a case where it lets a character add another attack into their rotation [at 50]. It's more to free up the characters to select more of their attack powers before 20, and open up a few more utility power selections which were what the fitness powers really were before anyway. |
Then they're going to look at their three new powers, the slots they're taking up, and realize what's happening.
On the plus side, I'll be able to have Hasten on a lot more characters.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
1-20 will actually be much easier just by the default that people will now pick those shiny powers earlier and not wait till after stamina.
Say hello to ennervating field, steamy mist and all those lovely powers you usually put off till after 20, suddenly making an appearance in the low teens ;-)
By the way, I do not agree with this "We have more power options but no more slots." Plenty of powers are great with just 1 slot. Some powers only need 5 slots not 6. People will adapt.