Issue 19's Inherant Fitness: The concerns
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-09-07 05:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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:reviewed the thread|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
You also forgot people attempting to make witty commentary on said thread.
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:reviewed the thread again.
I don't see any witty commen....ah, you said ATTEMPTING TO MAKE... ok, thanks. bye.
You can get swift at lvl 6, so who cares if you get it at lvl 2 now in i19. I have the ninja pack and can run faster with ninja run at lvl 4 than if I were to slot swift and use sprint only.
I personally am looking forward to stamina before lvl 20, even if I have to get it at lvl 6-10.
I can't feel my legs..!
I hope the devs don't take seriously the "concerns" posted in this thread.
Where were these complaints when run speed and fly speed got buffed with Going Rogue? Getting inherent swift and hurdle is a nice boost. It's ridiculous to consider it to be a negative.
Complaints about not having slots for more powers? Silly. You will have MORE powers. If it means you have to be more judicious with slotting, so be it. You will still have MORE powers. Not all powers need extra slots to be effective. If that's not good enough, take a slot from your weakest attack and use it for one of your new powers. If you're still down because you can't six slot a power, here's another suggestion: take a power you don't want and never use it.
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Haha, i'm with you on this! Still, my mains are getting respec'ed on the first day.
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
My only concern is that now I'll have to respec dozens of characters to take advantage of this new perk.
And I HATE respeccing! |
I'll respec as many times as I need to, if I'm respeccing into a better build. As long as it's a no-cost improvement, I'll do the leg work to have it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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My newest concern...what is my stalker going to do with the slot I save from getting Fitness Pool free?!
Don't worry! I'll think of something! I'll live with this...concern. ^_^
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Why should I have to do this "work-around", when all the devs would have to do is to make all the fitness powers unlock at level 1 or 2, and then give the players the choice to claim them on a per-power basis, like the veteran powers. That way if somebody wants stamina but not swift or hurdle, they can. EVERYBODY wins...
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Originally Posted by Zortel
I've found the jump height issue should be resolvable by just giving space a half tap instead of a full tap, and you gain the advantage of being able to fall a bit longer without taking damage.
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I can't see any good reason not to be able to turn off Swift if you want to. I have enough trouble outrunning escorted npcs on characters without it.
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This, a thousand times this.
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Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Can I just offer the complete opposite point of view?
I hate hate hate the default run speed. It is sooo SLOW. I take swift on all my characters at either 6 or 8, because I cannot stand running around without it. It is painful. I've tried using sprint, but then I feel like I'm moving too fast and it is a bit of an endurance hog. (Yes, hard to please I know.) I would actually take swift even if it wasn't needed for Stamina. I can't stand the early levels without it. So may I be the first to declare that I would be seriously annoyed if swift was to suddenly disapear from my characters, not to return. |
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Your argument has been made before, and I for one reject it.|
Originally Posted by Doughboy
Complaints about not having slots for more powers? Silly. You will have MORE powers. If it means you have to be more judicious with slotting, so be it. You will still have MORE powers. Not all powers need extra slots to be effective. If that's not good enough, take a slot from your weakest attack and use it for one of your new powers. If you're still down because you can't six slot a power, here's another suggestion: take a power you don't want and never use it.
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It makes no sense to select powers just to throw them away. Why would I clutter up my power selection like that? Why would I waste a level like that? The next thing the developers will have to deal with is a flood of players going "I'm wasting my power selections!"
It makes no sense to take powers and just leave them to sit with just the initial enhancement. What would my choice be? One accuracy? One Endurance Reduction? One Recharge? One enhancement does not make the powers effective, especially at the later level ranges. And before you suggest it, I can't take Hasten three times!
Again, you're making the false assumption that I don't like the fact that I'm getting these new powers. What I don't like is hamstringing everything else in the build in order to make the extra utilities worth the change.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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Why should the vast majority be deprived of what could otherwise be done with limited dev resources to design to the standards derived from anemic arguments being made by a very small segment of the market.|
Originally Posted by Partsman
Why should I have to do this "work-around", when all the devs would have to do is to make all the fitness powers unlock at level 1 or 2, and then give the players the choice to claim them on a per-power basis, like the veteran powers. That way if somebody wants stamina but not swift or hurdle, they can. EVERYBODY wins...
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I'm not normally one to claim to speak for the majority here...
...nor am I usually one to demean one's concerns or trivialize the % of people that share those concerns...
... but in this case, do you REALLY see so many people "opting out" of your plan that it's really worth the resources expended developing such an 'opt' system, knowing that those resources are pulled from other tasks?
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Non-existent because fly and sprint are things you turn on and off(toggles).|
Originally Posted by Doughboy
I hope the devs don't take seriously the "concerns" posted in this thread.
Where were these complaints when run speed and fly speed got buffed with Going Rogue? |
Swift and Hurdle are always there.
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| Getting inherent swift and hurdle is a nice boost. It's ridiculous to consider it to be a negative. |
Not everyone will like or want the same things. And to be fair, I don't think people who are objecting to swift or hurdle are saying they don't want stamina or the fitness pool to be inherent, they just want the ability to opt out of one or more of those powers as they see fit. Whether it is for ease of play for people who have trouble controlling toons(a small number I will probably admit), or whether it is for purely concept reasons...that does not invalidate their desire.
People are as free to not want swift or hurdle as they are to greatly desire them for their toons. I actually think the sensible middle ground is to make the powers all opt in. Or at the very least...keep stamina inherent(since this is really what this change is about anyway), and make the remaining 3 powers reject-able.
The fitness pool has mostly always been about getting stamina. Its the pot of gold at the end of a mostly-boring three power rainbow. Now making the pool inherent and freeing up those extra 3 power slots is a great thing, but I am pretty sure that stamina is the focal point of this change. As it should be.
Unless the devs come out and say that making the fitness pool completely opt-in is an impossibility or that it would take up too many resources to do, I don't know why people would get upset that someone might not want swift or hurdle. These are, arguably, the same people who will get up in arms anytime someone tells them that they are not playing the game the way they should be. I smell some hypocritical taint in the air...
Grey, I think you are making the assumption that your pick would be a power that does some kind of damage. For those, yes, one slot is probably not enough. But there are plenty pf powers, especially in the pools, that can be very effective with just one slot.
Foe example, take an extra travel power. It might be better with two or three slots but you can get by easily with just one. Or any of the invisibility powers do fine with just one.
But even some primary, secondary, and APP powers can work with just one slot. Maybe you are a brute that skipped taunt because it didn't fit your build. Or you never picked up the patron pet because you ran out of picks. Again, more slots could make them better, but just having these exrta powers with one slot will make all your characters that much more powerful and versatile.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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This is the key point. It's easy for the devs to make the Fitness pool powers inherent as straight-up auto powers. Adding options to take them, not take them, turn them on and off, etc., are all things that would take substantial development and testing time. It's just not worth their time, and it's not worth pushing back something else that we want more.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
... but in this case, do you REALLY see so many people "opting out" of your plan that it's really worth the resources expended developing such an 'opt' system, knowing that those resources are pulled from other tasks?
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As far as outrunning NPCs in escort mission goes: give all the NPCs Swift and Hurdle too. And, what the heck, Stamina too.
Problem solved.
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Oh, puh-leeze....|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Why should the vast majority be deprived of what could otherwise be done with limited dev resources to design to the standards derived from anemic arguments being made by a very small segment of the market.
I'm not normally one to claim to speak for the majority here... ...nor am I usually one to demean one's concerns or trivialize the % of people that share those concerns... ... but in this case, do you REALLY see so many people "opting out" of your plan that it's really worth the resources expended developing such an 'opt' system, knowing that those resources are pulled from other tasks? |
The technology is already in place; make all 4 powers available as a 0 month veteran reward, like the Axe and Sands of Mu. Claim them if you want them, ignore them otherwise. It may not be the best way to implement it, but it would be quick and painless. If you and your "vast majority" can't handle clicking a few buttons in the veteran badge menu, you could just wait until level 20, like now...
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On the flip side, I reject that whole rationale as so narrowly-focused its effectively blind.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Your argument has been made before, and I for one reject it.
It makes no sense to select powers just to throw them away. Why would I clutter up my power selection like that? Why would I waste a level like that? The next thing the developers will have to deal with is a flood of players going "I'm wasting my power selections!" It makes no sense to take powers and just leave them to sit with just the initial enhancement. What would my choice be? One accuracy? One Endurance Reduction? One Recharge? One enhancement does not make the powers effective, especially at the later level ranges. And before you suggest it, I can't take Hasten three times! Again, you're making the false assumption that I don't like the fact that I'm getting these new powers. What I don't like is hamstringing everything else in the build in order to make the extra utilities worth the change. |
"Effectiveness" of powers? They still have an effect-- even a very solid effect. Leadership's Maneuvers will STILL give you a defensive boost, it just won't give you as BIG of a boost without slotting. It still has an effect. Just not an optimized effect.
Could you get MORE of an effect by slotting it? sure.
Does it make sense to take and use, for example, another unslotted ATTACK power when you have a tray full of attack power? of course not.
Could you make use of a situational power that you otherwise wouldn't have? A self-heal / heal other to minimize downtime? A single target taunt? A fear in build that had no fears? It's something you otherwise wouldn't have-- another tool in your toolbox... just might not be the MOST effective contributor to your build's core power. It'll still have its uses-- heck, it might just help fill a limitation that your focused build had to live with.
And who says it has to remain unslotted? I've seen plenty of FOTM builds that wastes a slot in an attack to eke out another 3% increase to damage in a heavily ED-affected site. This is the opportunity to weigh what'll get you more- that 3% damage, or an extra def/endred slot on that leadership toggle you otherwise wouldn't have taken. Sure, you're 3% less in damage on that one attack, but you're getting more bonus for less cost from the new power you took. You lost a tiny bit of dps focus for a bit more survivability (or to-hit, or damage bonus, depending on the toggles).
That's just simple build management, and the fact that anyone can't fathom how these kinds of things balance out amuses me.
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Not all of the powers you could or even WOULD choose are of the "One Shot," Passive, or "Emergency" variety. And I'm not just talking attacks. Every power I choose takes consideration on how I can improve its effectiveness.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Grey, I think you are making the assumption that your pick would be a power that does some kind of damage. For those, yes, one slot is probably not enough. But there are plenty pf powers, especially in the pools, that can be very effective with just one slot.
Foe example, take an extra travel power. It might be better with two or three slots but you can get by easily with just one. Or any of the invisibility powers do fine with just one. But even some primary, secondary, and APP powers can work with just one slot. Maybe you are a brute that skipped taunt because it didn't fit your build. Or you never picked up the patron pet because you ran out of picks. Again, more slots could make them better, but just having these exrta powers with one slot will make all your characters that much more powerful and versatile. |
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
On the flip side, I reject that whole rationale as so narrowly-focused its effectively blind.
"Effectiveness" of powers? They still have an effect-- even a very solid effect. Leadership's Maneuvers will STILL give you a defensive boost, it just won't give you as BIG of a boost without slotting. It still has an effect. Just not an optimized effect. Could you get MORE of an effect by slotting it? sure. Does it make sense to take and use, for example, another unslotted ATTACK power when you have a tray full of attack power? of course not. Could you make use of a situational power that you otherwise wouldn't have? A self-heal / heal other to minimize downtime? A single target taunt? A fear in build that had no fears? It's something you otherwise wouldn't have-- another tool in your toolbox... just might not be the MOST effective contributor to your build's core power. It'll still have its uses-- heck, it might just help fill a limitation that your focused build had to live with. And who says it has to remain unslotted? I've seen plenty of FOTM builds that wastes a slot in an attack to eke out another 3% increase to damage in a heavily ED-affected site. This is the opportunity to weigh what'll get you more- that 3% damage, or an extra def/endred slot on that leadership toggle you otherwise wouldn't have taken. Sure, you're 3% less in damage on that one attack, but you're getting more bonus for less cost from the new power you took. You lost a tiny bit of dps focus for a bit more survivability (or to-hit, or damage bonus, depending on the toggles). That's just simple build management, and the fact that anyone can't fathom how these kinds of things balance out amuses me. |
Let's take your initial power, Maneuvers. Unslotted, that's a roughly 2% increase in Defense. It's also an extra .4 drain on your Endurance. One enhancement isn't going to do enough to mitigate the drain or make the drain worth it for the extra defense you're getting from that power.
So, I'll be able to add a little accuracy, a little endurance reduction, a little recharge rate, or maybe a little damage or mez... Or make a generally effective build that might have some extra tricks, but they won't be the sorts of tricks I would rely on, plus the rest of my build suffers.
I do see the management you're talking about. I just don't like the effectiveness of those powers without help.
Don't forget, the slots that went into Fitness before, be it Swift for a Rooted Tanker or slots into Stamina for those End-heavy builds, are very likely still going in there.
This change will be complicating build management, but not making it impossible, nor will it make playing the game some sort of drudgery. I understand I'll probably have to get used to the idea of less effectiveness or limited use.
Don't expect me to like it or cry doom over it, though. I'm just addressing my concern, and I feel like I'm being lumped in with the doomcriers and dismissed out of hand because everybody else who's happy with the change doesn't mind the idea of work that should be approached with a hammer and chisel is being done with dynamite.
Of course, I'll agree, we don't yet know how it's going to happen. We don't know what the Devs have in mind yet, save that the powers will still be slot-able and enhanceable. I would just prefer I knew that everybody wasn't so damned happy about the possibility of dynamite being used in their backyard.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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All I'm going to say is - you don't have to.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Not all of the powers you could or even WOULD choose are of the "One Shot," Passive, or "Emergency" variety. And I'm not just talking attacks. Every power I choose takes consideration on how I can improve its effectiveness.
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As a matter of fact, running through my characters recently, I find on a lot of them I've taken things like Hasten or, yes, the Fitness powers, not because I actually needed any of them, but because I actually DIDN'T WANT anything else.
Here's some food for though - now that people are purportedly going to have so many more power picks, can we please open up Epic pools a little earlier? Say, 38 or 35? That way, we can potentially grab all five powers from it by the end of the game, as opposed to the four maximum we can now.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Shoot, sorry, not my intention... really bad wording there.. kinda dividing attention and mixing thoughts... my serious apologies. Started grumpy, reread, and found you weren't deserving of it, then edited away several areas up front when I posted rather than previewed, but didn't check the end before going on. I blame caffeine poisoning.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Not all of the powers you could or even WOULD choose are of the "One Shot," Passive, or "Emergency" variety. And I'm not just talking attacks. Every power I choose takes consideration on how I can improve its effectiveness.
Nice backhanded insult at the end there, Chase. |
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
Let's take your initial power, Maneuvers. Unslotted, that's a roughly 2% increase in Defense. It's also an extra .4 drain on your Endurance. One enhancement isn't going to do enough to mitigate the drain or make the drain worth it for the extra defense you're getting from that power.
So, I'll be able to add a little accuracy, a little endurance reduction, a little recharge rate, or maybe a little damage or mez... Or make a generally effective build that might have some extra tricks, but they won't be the sorts of tricks I would rely on, plus the rest of my build suffers. I do see the management you're talking about. I just don't like the effectiveness of those powers without help. Don't forget, the slots that went into Fitness before, be it Swift for a Rooted Tanker or slots into Stamina for those End-heavy builds, are very likely still going in there. This change will be complicating build management, but not making it impossible, nor will it make playing the game some sort of drudgery. I understand I'll probably have to get used to the idea of less effectiveness or limited use. Don't expect me to like it or cry doom over it, though. I'm just addressing my concern, and I feel like I'm being lumped in with the doomcriers and dismissed out of hand because everybody else who's happy with the change doesn't mind the idea of work that should be approached with a hammer and chisel is being done with dynamite. Of course, I'll agree, we don't yet know how it's going to happen. We don't know what the Devs have in mind yet, save that the powers will still be slot-able and enhanceable. I would just prefer I knew that everybody wasn't so damned happy about the possibility of dynamite being used in their backyard. |
Similarly, Assault on a DPS class like a Scrapper gives you +10.5% bonus, IIRC... which should be applied over ED, right (asking here, haven't followed the effects too much lately) How many people neurotically slot to get a +3% set bonus? This is 10% across all powers, and at most it would make sense to add 1 slot to the power to reduce endurance costs. A fire scrapper with stamina inherent could easily use a single-slotted CONSUME to make up that difference operationally.
HASTEN isn't required for all builds, and perma-hasten isn't a requirement to make hasten useful, but hasten can make any build have thier heaviest hitters come back faster, so how isn't a single-slotted hasten pretty darn useful?
Single slotted recall friend to keep the teams together with less separation time due to those afk moments?
These all have VALUE-- even unslotted.
Personally, before I called for more SLOTS, I'd clamor for more POOL POWERS like these. (Preferably some more of autopowers-- my trays are insanely full on some builds)... and how about rethinking the "pool penalty" where many pool powers seem to cost more for less effect than their pri/sec counterparts. It's very annoying to take a throwaway attack from the fighting pool on my pistol blapper just so I can have the later toggles... especially when that attack, even properly slotted, so underperforms compared to my secondary options.
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Assault is a global buff, just like damage buffs from set IOs or enrages or any other damage buff.| which should be applied over ED, right (asking here, haven't followed the effects too much lately) |
The build I'm looking at now for BZB drops CJ and adds assault, hasten and maneuvers come I-19. Still debating the 4th power to add.
Edit: Oh yea, physical perfection.
Be well, people of CoH.
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The ten minutes of Dev time that it would take to copy Walk and change the speed multiplier on it? Hell, yes. I mean, people who don't want Swift will not be slotting it so you'll just need a speed multiplier of 1 divided by the swift multiplier.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
... but in this case, do you REALLY see so many people "opting out" of your plan that it's really worth the resources expended developing such an 'opt' system, knowing that those resources are pulled from other tasks?
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I have quit groups before because Kineticists could not get the message that some people do not want speed boosting. They also could not understand that going faster isn't automatically a bonus in a game where positioning is so important.
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1. SCR|
Originally Posted by GenomeX
The ten minutes of Dev time that it would take to copy Walk and change the speed multiplier on it? Hell, yes. I mean, people who don't want Swift will not be slotting it so you'll just need a speed multiplier of 1 divided by the swift multiplier.
I have quit groups before because Kineticists could not get the message that some people do not want speed boosting. They also could not understand that going faster isn't automatically a bonus in a game where positioning is so important. |
2. They aren't buffing you so you move faster, they are buffing your recharge and recovery.
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I don't like the idea of Swift and Hurdle being forced upon me, but if they are I wouldn't get upset about it. I'll just get used to it and move on just like everybody else.|
Originally Posted by Someone
Unless the devs come out and say that making the fitness pool completely opt-in is an impossibility or that it would take up too many resources to do, I don't know why people would get upset that someone might not want swift or hurdle. These are, arguably, the same people who will get up in arms anytime someone tells them that they are not playing the game the way they should be. I smell some hypocritical taint in the air...
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But if they gave us the choice to take Swift and Hurdle, I'd be happy
Home server: Victory
Characters on: Victory & Virtue
My first 50(0)! 18/11/11
@Oneirohero
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Every Stone Armor user just laughed at you.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
2. They aren't buffing you so you move faster
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My main has swift, quickness and usually leaves sprint on during combat and I STILL smile when I get hit with speed boost because I enjoy the added speed and recovery.
Some people don't have the twitch reflexes to handle that level of speed. Some folks are on crappy computers with crappy internet connections and are usually drunk or otherwise impaired.
It's not nice to constantly call those handicapped in this fashion whiners.
Be well, people of CoH.
So no, problem not solved.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.