pvp for the future of the product

positron said "PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13." but then castle said they won't be looking at pvp again until after GR.

my guess is issue 20 after incarnates.

when do you think the devs will work on pvp again for all of us and the entire future of the product?

Agreed. The devs have known for years that only a small percentage of the playerbase was ever interested in PvP. If they do something with it I'm sure it will make 10 or 20 people happy but it won't affect the game for the majority of players.

And for those 10 or 20 people haqppy with the changes, there will be several who will be unhappy with the changes. We will get to read thier complaints here.

Seemed liked a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation for the Devs, and it's easier/cheaper to Don't.

Careful GG. That could get a reprimand from a mod about breaking the forum rules. I can't say how I know cuz that's also against the rules.

tunnel rat has NEVER been that concise. that said, its funny, yeah pvpers are a smaller group, and i doubt any change will grow them to a significant number, but ya know, if they have the resources, I think it would be a good faith thing to do. at least revert to issue 12 pvp if nothing else.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

What strikes me is the title, as if the Devs don't work on PvP RIGHT NOW the game will explode in a hellish firestorm of lava and brimstone...

I've only PvP'ed once, and that was an organized thing. It was fun. But such a thing doesn't need the Devs absolute undivided attention. I'm sure there's tweaks needed, but a lot more people play PvE, as far as i'm aware.

Unfortunately, despite the fact that PvP sucks pretty badly in its current state, I'm terrified of what the devs will do to it when they end up "looking at it" again. I'd suggest a few really stupid changes (ironically of course) but then they'd probably actually implement them because they like to do that sort of thing.

I don't like PvP, I've never really liked PvP in any game I've played, but I do kinda think the devs should put a bit of effort into tweaking it and making it fun.

I know there are a lot of people who like PvP out there, and maybe if the devs do something people will shut up with the "one thing that sucks about CoH is the PvP!"

You can do a binary split along any number of axes - it's not like you can't continue to separate PvPers into a variety of the "two camps" that they're in, and all of them would be right.

Personally, the biggest problem I have with the i13 PvP changes is how they were handled: many of the things implemented were, in some manner or another, requested. But rather than making a change here, a change there, and pausing between them to listen to feedback and see how they worked out, everything was thrown in all at once - changing the entire way the system worked - and feedback was ignored unless the person saying it was cheering on the changes, and often in the feedback thread the people posting their approval also explicitly stated that they never PvP'd before, had no interest in it, still have no interest in it, and liked the changes solely because it angered the people who did PvP. And those were the people listened to.

Right now, there's a mixed bag of organized PvP: the test ladder is in the process of dying because the copy tool isn't working, so any teams that didn't already have their characters on test are unable to move anyone; at the same time there are smaller ladders that are popping up on a couple of different servers, so there's at least some interest out there. I don't think any of them would be greatly upset with a rollback to i12 rules - but as said earlier in the thread, that would only be a first step.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

I still think many here aren't opposed to PvP, they're, like me, apposed to OUR pvp.

You know I am getting really tired of this community constantly bad mouthing PvP and PvPers. There is OBVIOUSLY a market for PvP despite all of your outcries that it is a nominal part of any game. Off the top of my head I can not name a single MMO that has not had PvP in some form released in the past year but I can name a few that had a focus on it and guess what? They are doing better than this game.

No one is asking for PvP to become the new focus of the dev team but it is not unreasonable to ask that the devs at least acknowledge it has problems many of which are THEIR faults.

Not everyone wants to see PvP removed. Not everyone hates competition. Just like not everyone likes PvP. So where is this awsome community I always hear about in this game? I have yet to see it.Anti-PvPers who shoot down any idea they feel would change the game in anyway that might affect them with some sort of diservice. You get the same attitude in topics about peoples disatisfaction with Going Rogue. Why does it matter so much to you all that some people feel differently?

NO portion of a game should just be "cut" because it doesn't have that many participants. The goal SHOULD be to build up the smaller communties and overall build the entire community. Not to focus time and resources on keeping those happy with the game...even happier. Happy people will stay longer than those who are unhappy.

yeah what arbiter shade said!

Yes but you'll know those games you mentioned were built with PvP in mind from the outset

City of Heroes had it randomly stuffed in and much like a lot of the early work of Cryptic on CoH not a lot of thought went into it, it was an "Oh god we've got to have PvP!" kind of thang. That legacy continues and because of that PvP was NEVER popular, the community isn't just small..it's damn near microscopic.

PvP in MMOs CAN be fun, but PvP in CoH...SUCKS!

Sorry but they killed a very, VERY large chunk of the PvP community with the Issue 13 changes in an attempt (probably from orders on high from NCsoft) to try to draw new people into PvP, which was just as stupid as the original implementation of PvP.

It failed because, despite what you think, in City of Heroes...an amazingly small percentage actually likes to PvP, especially compared to other MMOs.

Also you failed to mention the PvP focused MMOs that failed miserably, they focused on PvP at the cost of PvE, the opposite of what CoH did and they suffered because, well if you want PvP in a fantasy MMO, other MMOs can do that for you already AND you can go do raids as well if you get bored of the PvP. Most people don't like PvP...the dedicated PvPers are always a vastly smaller number than the 'off again, on again' casual PvP players (like I use to be prior to Issue 13) or the 'why bother?' purely PvE crowd.

City of Heroes just wasn't built for PvP, the community just isn't there for PvP (anymore at least) and being brutally honest you could strip it out and probably only 1%-2% of the CoH community would complain (prior to the gutting that was the Issue 13 exodus only about 5% of people did PvP with any kind of regularity if I remember what a dev said at the time correctly).

Also, do you know what ELSE those three games have in common? PVP designed integrally to the game *from the outset.* COH did not. PVP here is just sort of bolted on. And the ATs here are MUCH harder to balance than - a game with set classes with set skill sets and talent trees. COH? Tell me what skills a Defender has. If you say "Healing," you're already wrong. (See also Sonic, Force field, Trick Arrow.)

No, PVP shouldn't be cut. Yes, PVP has serious problems that need addressing. But labeling it as "For the future of the product" as the OP did is, frankly, laughable. I don't think the general playerbase is all that concerned with it, I don't think most of those that ARE would see it, if everything was tackled at once, as a good investment of time, and I think most of the remaining PVP community, if told "We're going to focus on PVP in issue 21" would have a reaction similar to mac and siolfur and probably start looking around for a new game.

I just can't see there being a PVP resurgence of any significance, no matter what they do, and that's a shame.

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I agree with most of what you are saying but because it is bad as it is now is not a good reason to let it die. I would argue that because it is so bad they should work on making it better and TRY to get people into it. If they feel that they can draw new customers in with GR then why couldn't they change PvP to try and draw new customers?

I am not saying PvP is crucial for success and I never will say that, but I do think that it is something that would a wise invesment for Paragon Studios if not for this game but for future games. Use this game a spring board for future games in what you want to set up. Obviously they have learned what NOT to do with PvP but there is still plenty of time to learn the right things to do.

CoX wasn't built with PvP in mind is no reason to forget PvP exist.

EDIT: Memphis you are correct but I just don't want to give up on something I used to enjoy so much. My globals friends list quit the day i13 went through and I still have yet to find a place I can really feel welcome in this game. Aion may not be doing as great as it could be but it still goes to show the INTEREST is there for a good PvP game. The problem is finding a good PvP game.

Having only joined the game at Issue 13, I never got the experience the 'old' kind of PvP that everybody seems to be used to. But many, many months later when I got a chance to play I realised that there were a lot of restriction-debuffs placed on characters.

I'm one of those on-again, off-again casual PvPers who isn't even phased by multiple losses so long as my opponent doesn't do the equivalent of a teabag on me. But if it were possible to tweak PvP to ease some of the core complaints about PvP I wouldn't object in the least

An improved PvP might bring back some of the i13 quitters, it might make non-PvPers interested in trying it out even only a casual basis, and it might even draw new players who only disallow themselves to play this game because PvP isn't up to standards.



Just because I don't PvP or even think about PvP that often doesn't mean I don't think development on the subject is a huge waste of time.