pvp for the future of the product
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-29 11:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
So i guess the second half of my post could be seen as somewhat agreeing with you?|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
there was a discussion about this in the GR section were evidence was shown that on average somewhere between 10-20% of the population pvp'd and that number slowly dived downward after i13 hit. its not hard to say that a pvp reversion/rebalance (assuming the devs use logic/reason/math this time) would do 3 things. 1) bring in new players that are intersted in pvp 2) make your current pvp community that hasn't left yet much happier 3) bring back old players that left due to i13. either way I find it completely stupid to say that pvp fixes aren't worth it because the population is so low because they changed it. a relatively low percent(atleast the same amount as before i13) of the population RPs/hardcore badges but there are still new things implemented and fixes with every patch and issue.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
That said, i would like to see some changes made to pvp mechanics. Making pvp closer to pve again would be a nice change in my opinion. While i've never been a regular pvper i did like it more prior to the i13 mechanics.
|
A mixed pvp/pve zone might not be a bad idea if done well. Something like Warburg, but you choose whether to be pvp enabled when entering, or talk to a contact in the zone to change the flag. Set it so that pve mode prevents buffing/debuffing/healing of those in pvp mode and vice versa. Add some pvp mode rewards/content/events/critters that require pvp mode to fight against or align with. Story-wise some sort of temporal war zone would make sense and allow a blend of play modes and affiliations. Just a thought.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
As somebody who casually PvP'd before The Big Changes, I would be happy to see some changes. Primarily, I'd like to see something done so that IO bonuses and powers actually work the same between PvE and PvP. Making a PvP system where most powers work differently from how they do in PvE... when the new system was designed to draw in PvE'ers... is, um. Well, I'll call it a unique idea, at least.
That said, I also have to agree with several other posters that
1) it isn't likely a big goal.
2) it probably shouldn't be a big goal. The PvP population of the game is pretty small. Plus, when the game's been out for six years, I think it's a bit too late to develop a reputation for having awesome PvP.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Quote:
I don't think people actually hate PvP, except maybe one or two vocal people.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
/rant snip/
|
It's just the apparent majority couldn't care less. They'd rather do PvE, Badging, RP...other stuff.
Was I12 PvP better than I13 PvP? In some cases yes. I.E. travel suppression, or lack of. Teleport actually had a use.
And in some cases it was horrible. Like being perma-held. On a TANKER. I don't think I'll ever forget horrible moments like that. People seem to gloss over the really atrocious bits of I12 PvP.
Would changes for the better be good? Sure. Is it a higher priority than PvE? No. Not by a long shot.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
pvp being worked on or not has no bearing on the future of this product in any way shape or form.
they should focus SOME attention on pvp.
But if it's a choice between pvp and endgame content, I'd say most players would go with viable PVE endgame contnet 90% of the time.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
One the one side, it's a shame PvP has so many obstacles for success, since heroes and villains fighting each other is such an integral part of superhero comics. On the other hand, Daredevil simply cannot defeat Superman and that is just a fact.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Quote:
With enough defenders he could.
|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
On the other hand, Daredevil simply cannot defeat Superman and that is just a fact.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Or some kryptonite...or if the suns was blocked for an extended period of time.
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
With enough defenders he could.
|
In comic books, anyone can defeat anyone if the story needs it to happen 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I don't think it's possible for them to add endgame content and not work on PvP in some way at the same time - unless they're planning to make Incarnate abilities only work in PvE situations.
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
But if it's a choice between pvp and endgame content, I'd say most players would go with viable PVE endgame contnet 90% of the time.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
probably one of the most reasonable statements on this thread topic. of course reasonable and 'in the schedule' / 'coming soon' are very different things ;p
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I don't think it's possible for them to add endgame content and not work on PvP in some way at the same time - unless they're planning to make Incarnate abilities only work in PvE situations.
|
Kittens give Morbo gas.
Quote:
I guess that depends on your definition of "horrible." When I had ... i think it was a (pair) of Mind/ controllers break my Brute's status protection (and I saw how fast they were layering on holds - I think I had two full, stacked (non-numeric, non-full-icon-per) lines of holds and such on me) I got around to asking them about builds. Fun doing nothing? No, but 1v2, generic vs dedicated builds, I didn't expect to. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And in some cases it was horrible. Like being perma-held. On a TANKER. I don't think I'll ever forget horrible moments like that. People seem to gloss over the really atrocious bits of I12 PvP.
|
I had far too many interesting zone moments pre-I13. Fighting AlienOne's PVP 'shade while he was developing it (and how to use it) with my Nec/Poi MM. Yeah, I usually won, but the point was helping him tighten up what he was doing to actually kill me before my pets showed (or get around my holds, slows, debuffs, etc.) Eating a triple-AS on my PB in Dwarf form, or holding off a team of villains for several minutes on the same character, solo. Fighting (and finally whittling down) a Stone tank on my MA/Regen stalker - and when he tried trash talking, having his own side say "Dude, just drop it, she (my stalker) beat you." A running and very good natured rivalry (on my PB again) with a Stalker I don't think I've seen since I13.
Post-I13? Being suppressed for *using an inspiration.* Not bothering to take anyone with Teleport into the zones. The various suppressions - I could see what the devs were trying to do when it was being beta'd, but it seriously fell apart, and I'd call the situation now far more horrible than anything that happened - oh, I'd put it between I8 and I13 (once they had various geometry holes plugged, a few extra reinforcing drones, and the roof put on the villain hospital.)
Arena-focused PVPers probably have a different point, but I tended to prefer the "never know who you'll run into" side of zones.
Quote:
So are you saying a Tanker should be impervious to mez?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Was I12 PvP better than I13 PvP? In some cases yes. I.E. travel suppression, or lack of. Teleport actually had a use. And in some cases it was horrible. Like being perma-held. On a TANKER. I don't think I'll ever forget horrible moments like that. People seem to gloss over the really atrocious bits of I12 PvP. |
If you're getting perma held on a tanker in PvE should the rules be magically changed now because it's "horrible"?
I used to PvP on a brute back in I12, if my mez protection got broke by a Dominator/Controller I considered that partially my fault for sticking around long enough for them to stack holds on me. If I saw a Dominator/Controller I considered them a pretty big threat and I'd try to focus on keeping pressure on them so they wouldn't hold me.
Another glaringly huge problem I find with the i13 pvp changes is that some powers only work a certain way in PvP but act completely different in PvE.
Quote:
exactly. a good number of posters here seem to believe that pvp 'generalists' consist of nothing more than completely min/max'd characters chocked full of inf-amy/luence and the greatest io's you've never personally seen.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I guess that depends on your definition of "horrible." When I had ... i think it was a (pair) of Mind/ controllers break my Brute's status protection (and I saw how fast they were layering on holds - I think I had two full, stacked (non-numeric, non-full-icon-per) lines of holds and such on me) I got around to asking them about builds. Fun doing nothing? No, but 1v2, generic vs dedicated builds, I didn't expect to.
I had far too many interesting zone moments pre-I13. Fighting AlienOne's PVP 'shade while he was developing it (and how to use it) with my Nec/Poi MM. Yeah, I usually won, but the point was helping him tighten up what he was doing to actually kill me before my pets showed (or get around my holds, slows, debuffs, etc.) Eating a triple-AS on my PB in Dwarf form, or holding off a team of villains for several minutes on the same character, solo. Fighting (and finally whittling down) a Stone tank on my MA/Regen stalker - and when he tried trash talking, having his own side say "Dude, just drop it, she (my stalker) beat you." A running and very good natured rivalry (on my PB again) with a Stalker I don't think I've seen since I13. Post-I13? Being suppressed for *using an inspiration.* Not bothering to take anyone with Teleport into the zones. The various suppressions - I could see what the devs were trying to do when it was being beta'd, but it seriously fell apart, and I'd call the situation now far more horrible than anything that happened - oh, I'd put it between I8 and I13 (once they had various geometry holes plugged, a few extra reinforcing drones, and the roof put on the villain hospital.) Arena-focused PVPers probably have a different point, but I tended to prefer the "never know who you'll run into" side of zones. |
the character i used most blueside - a claw/sr scrapper in mostly siren's call with strictly so's even after io's became available. easily several hundred hours between i6 and i13. easily several thousand stalkers jailed and several thousand defeats later ;p about another 20 hrs post i13. some of the fights i used to have in there were delicious, and not in a 'tears' kind of way. ah, ender, soulie's stalker, soulie, and dammit a russian stalker whose name escapes me...maybe.... soviet missile?
/anywho, appreciate the chance to reminisce
Kittens give Morbo gas.
Quote:
Heh. Probably more true for Arena-Ladder folks, TBH, than zone. All of mine were "PVE builds." Biggest nod toward PVP would be perhaps adding in a stealth IO. And some would get that *anyway.*|
Originally Posted by spice_weasel
exactly. a good number of posters here seem to believe that pvp 'generalists' consist of nothing more than completely min/max'd characters chocked full of inf-amy/luence and the greatest io's you've never personally seen.
|
Quote:
| a claw/sr scrapper in mostly siren's call |
Quote:
|
/anywho, appreciate the chance to reminisce
|
Quote:
I loved PvP generalist play in the zones without a single bit of min/maxing. The problem was that, even for casual play, I had to exclude whole powersets-- there were too many rock-paper-scissors moments where the outcome was predetermined.... and would be over and over every time we met.|
Originally Posted by spice_weasel
exactly. a good number of posters here seem to believe that pvp 'generalists' consist of nothing more than completely min/max'd characters chocked full of inf-amy/luence and the greatest io's you've never personally seen.
|
Now, even that wouldn't be an issue in a large well populated zone where teammates cover each others' strengths, but for the sizes we encountered... it was totally worthless.
SINCE the PvP revamp, I haven't bothered going into the zones at all-- even though one of the reasons for the revamp was to make more powersets & archetypes more viable. I listened to enough of the brouhaha to know that I needed to relearn fundamentals before going back. Personally, while I liked PvP, I'm a casual enough PvP'er that I didn't like it enough to bother with that. There's enough for me to do elsewhere.
Quote:
it wasn't so much "calling you out" as it were or dis/agreeing with you, just saying that that specific argument which you stated(and which has been used serveral times in this thread) is crap.
|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
So i guess the second half of my post could be seen as somewhat agreeing with you?
|
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Quote:
i think blaming the community for something the devs did isnt fair.|
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
And for those 10 or 20 people haqppy with the changes, there will be several who will be unhappy with the changes. We will get to read thier complaints here.
Seemed liked a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation for the Devs, and it's easier/cheaper to Don't. |
the community didnt tell them to make all the issues and problems with pvp did they?..no. infact id rather they leave it alone based on 2 already failed attempts to "balance" something its clear they dont do and have no clue where to take it.
infact the last rebalcne saw a increase of cancelled substricptions cause players have given up on where exactly the devs wanna take the games pvp section.
on top of that you have the non pvpers yelling and harressing the pvp players cause they bring up changes that would help. simply cause they think itll get them somewhere in this game
its not a no win for the devs.they simply have to nail one way for it to be. not 3 which it currently in its "stage 3" rebalance act.then maybe.just maybe people can and might get on board.
incase you havent seen pvp lately the fact that 90% is scrappers for hero side and has been tells me the devs do play favorites when it comes to what to balance and what not to balance or else they wouldnt let it continue this far for so long.nerfing the easy mode scrappers would be the first step to assuring balance. as a herpo and villian player im not scrapper hating.im just simply saying that we all know what it tops in hero side pvp and it needs a change .just like /ss . with rage and kob being spammed it really needs to be nerfed as well.when /em got nerfed everyone went to /ss and made the nerf pointless
Free for all deathmatch-style PVP is just not suited to the way CoH works. We need team and objectives based PVP in the form of scripted zones and missions.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
Quote:
Inspirations are hard to click
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Was I12 PvP better than I13 PvP? In some cases yes. I.E. travel suppression, or lack of. Teleport actually had a use.
And in some cases it was horrible. Like being perma-held. On a TANKER. I don't think I'll ever forget horrible moments like that. People seem to gloss over the really atrocious bits of I12 PvP.. |
Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In comic books, anyone can defeat anyone if the story needs it to happen
|
Squirrel Girl > Doctor Doom
'Nuff said!
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Severe notes that 90% of hero PvP is scrappers.
They should just scrap the whole PvP side of "special cases", revert to PvE rules, and let the community build the cookie cutters that work for the rock-paper-scissors situations.
Hey, that's how Starcraft works, right?
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
Quote:
I'm curious. Which are the recently released games that are doing better that have a pvp focus?
|
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
Off the top of my head I can not name a single MMO that has not had PvP in some form released in the past year but I can name a few that had a focus on it and guess what? They are doing better than this game.
|
For the future of the product, please drop travel supression.
Quote:
Uhh...|
Originally Posted by Death_Badger
I'm curious. Which are the recently released games that are doing better that have a pvp focus?
|
Call of duty?
For MMOs, almost all of them make PVP an extension of the PVE game, and that is generally going to lead to too many compromises and a lot of failure. If you want to do PVP, then do it right, and stop pretending games have PVP modes when the only thing PVP about them is they can be called as such on the back of the box.