pvp for the future of the product
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-29 11:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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PC_guy you're making too much sense. We can't have that on these boards.
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
No.
i think implementing a system that is understandable, implemented with player feedback, and uses logic and common sense would entice current pvpers to pvp more often. really anything other than what we do know, hence everyone suggesting a reversion to i12 since, you're right, the devs will likely not visit pvp again and a reversion would make everyone alot happier. pre i13 wasn't perfect, but atleast it was the same as pve and made alot more sense than this system does. |
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Heh, very cute indeed. The HVAM wasn't poorly thought out for what it is. It's pve rewards for pve that's all. The pvp rewards part was just tacked on and is irrelevant to the I13 pvp rules. The I13 pvp rules could revert back to I12 and that would have nothing to do with HVAM merits. Those are fine as is.|
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
memphis bill i'm really liking how you agree with me about pvp almost 2 years after our initial i13 beta song and dance. it's really awsome.
aura familia i'm just wondering how you can call me a "troll" for pointing out the poorly thought out hvam system and was looking for something more reasonable but you are now here wanting "tangible rewards on reasonable timers" and complaining about the "many asinine i13 pvp rules". pot calling the kettle black? it is very interesting how some of you feel entitled to complain or oppose a game play mechanic when it suits your purpose but are problematic and insulting when others complain or oppose something. all very cute though, glad to see more objective thought, and more people wanting better pvp mechanics and rewards at a reasonable rate. |
sooooo logically one has nothing to do with the other. But I'll leave you to your funny logic.
Now if you want to talk about increasing the timers for pvp IOs in pvp let's have that discussion. Talking about HVAM merits is irrelevant and has NOTHING to do with that, as the timers on drops for pvp IOs in pvp were borked before HVAMs and still are.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
And once again the title of this thread is complete fallacy.
City of Heroes could expunge pvp altogether and it wouldn't do ANYTHING at all to the game's overall bottom line.
Whether the OP wants to face it or not (or continue to stick his head in the sand like a certain bird) a majority of players couldn't care less about pvp. I'd bet money that those that do actually play games were competitive gameplay actually works well.
I bet money (again) that if the devs ran an informal poll and asked which players cared about the devs focusing on for I20, pvp would be one of the things to come in dead last, if not last. Especially since ENDGAME is the one thing that has been clamored for, for oh I don't know the past 3 years. I HIGHLY doubt most of the playerbase would be pleased if the devs turned around and said "hey guess what, we're going to improve pvp as endgame".
Just saying.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Heh, very cute indeed. The HVAM wasn't poorly thought out for what it is. It's pve rewards for pve that's all. The pvp rewards part was just tacked on and is irrelevant to the I13 pvp rules. The I13 pvp rules could revert back to I12 and that would have nothing to do with HVAM merits. Those are fine as is.
sooooo logically one has nothing to do with the other. But I'll leave you to your funny logic. Now if you want to talk about increasing the timers for pvp IOs in pvp let's have that discussion. Talking about HVAM merits is irrelevant and has NOTHING to do with that, as the timers on drops for pvp IOs in pvp were borked before HVAMs and still are. |
read, pay attention and think first before you post replies in the future.
i'll simplify things for you and your funny logic.
you call me a "troll" for pointing out an "asinine" system and wanting tangible rewards with reasonable timers and cost
but
you who called me a "troll" is now in another thread pointing out an "asinine" system and wanting tangible rewards with reasonable timers.
so
if complaining about a game system makes one a "troll" as you say then by your own definition we are both in the same boat. funny how that works out huh?
but
just keep on trying to insult others for complaining until it suits your purpose to complain.
all in all though i'm really glad to see some real logic being used by you about this pvp topic.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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yes it wouldn't do anything except get rid of some current subscribers and their friends, have one less feature than other "mainstream" mmos, prevent potential customers who have some interest in pvp from joining and alienate more and more people when they get bored with pve or see pvp as endgame content. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
And once again the title of this thread is complete fallacy.
City of Heroes could expunge pvp altogether and it wouldn't do ANYTHING at all to the game's overall bottom line. Whether the OP wants to face it or not (or continue to stick his head in the sand like a certain bird) a majority of players couldn't care less about pvp. I'd bet money that those that do actually play games were competitive gameplay actually works well. I bet money (again) that if the devs ran an informal poll and asked which players cared about the devs focusing on for I20, pvp would be one of the things to come in dead last, if not last. Especially since ENDGAME is the one thing that has been clamored for, for oh I don't know the past 3 years. I HIGHLY doubt most of the playerbase would be pleased if the devs turned around and said "hey guess what, we're going to improve pvp as endgame". Just saying. |
i think you are missing the parts where i'm quoting positron, just sayin'
edit- who really has their head in the sand like a certain bird? me or the development team that created this "asinine" pvp system who made promises to paying customers but never followed through?
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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I don't think the Devs want to alienate any group of players. Since PVP exist as part of the game, they will want to make it as good as possible. By saying that they aren't concerned about it because they haven addressed it yet just falls into the fallacy as the OP.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
And once again the title of this thread is complete fallacy.
City of Heroes could expunge pvp altogether and it wouldn't do ANYTHING at all to the game's overall bottom line. Whether the OP wants to face it or not (or continue to stick his head in the sand like a certain bird) a majority of players couldn't care less about pvp. I'd bet money that those that do actually play games were competitive gameplay actually works well. I bet money (again) that if the devs ran an informal poll and asked which players cared about the devs focusing on for I20, pvp would be one of the things to come in dead last, if not last. Especially since ENDGAME is the one thing that has been clamored for, for oh I don't know the past 3 years. I HIGHLY doubt most of the playerbase would be pleased if the devs turned around and said "hey guess what, we're going to improve pvp as endgame". Just saying. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I would not be opposed to reverting back to i12 PvP, I kind of like my melee class toons to have mez protection...not mez resistance =\ I think the last time I stepped into a PvP zone was sometime after they made it so that phased characters can attack other phased (not Hibernate) characters.
I like PVP in this game.
I liked it pre-I13, and I still like it now. It mostly works fine for me as a casual "pick up a match when I feel like it" kind of thing.
Sure, things could be done to improve it but I personally feel the devs are managing the game pretty well thus far. Going Rogue is excellent and contains great content and the End Game stuff just around the corner is of a far higher priority to most players than PVP.
Thelonious Monk
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Originally Posted by McNum
I know, that's what makes it sad. There was a problem with not getting people into PvP, but the changes needed were not really to the powers, but to the content. Sure, we can see that some things in old PvP were plainly overpowered, but that's a small fix. What the old PvP needed was a solid answer to the question: "And why would I want to do that?" As far as I'm concerned, there's still no answer to that.
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Originally Posted by Psyte
I'd like to see PVP be more than direct conflict. PVP via PVE? I'd love to see ways for us to compete with each other via other means. Broaden the ways players can compete with each other and you'll see more folks get involved.
PVP is as much spirit as it is anything else. |
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Look the fixes are fairly simple to make it fun:
Capture the flag - use a gameplay similar to Halflife Team Fortress Classic. The old Dustbowl map is a classic and would be a welcome addition. Imagince if defenders could buff walls that sealed off a flag - if they could heal damaged fortifications. Escort or briefcase missions. What if you have to get a case out of a building in a 10 minute timer? All while facing a torrent of damage and defenders/controllers raising walls and slowing you down. Then since its a tournament setting you get to defend yourself next time. The game is made to have awesome battles instead we get a boring arena or a wide open strafe festival. You get flavor of the month builds that are untouchable by normal heroes instead of jobs given for each class. I have seen nothing approaching the true creativity that could make this an amazing PvP game. |
Since CoH2 was registered, maybe they are looking forward to the next iteration of this game. Building creative and fun PvP (with the appropriate rewards built in) needs to be part of the plan from Day One. Tacking it on as was done with this game was effort doomed to failure from the outset. Either you have the rules for PvE and PvP be compatible from the beginning, or you have two sets of rules. The problem is: you can't really have two sets of rules in a game like this without annoying people who are connected to their characters.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
PVP in this game has really centered around *teams.* 1v1? It's doable, with some builds, absolutely. However, get a team together, covering each others weaknesses and reinforcing the strengths - and teleport? Pre-13, Sturdies, defense (as it still requires tohit,) some powersets could just ignore it (Energy aura - spent lots of time laughing at people who tried to teleport me over and over on my EM/EA brute) and, I *believe,* ID from Kinetics, among other powers. There were a number of counters.
But you do need enough people interested to *form* those teams. |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think this is ALSO one of the key issues. Every time pvp comes up many pvpers say "just form a team". I OFTEN laugh because I can count the number of in-game friends I have who are interested in pvp on one hand. Before pvp it was maybe about 2-3 more than that number.
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One of the key elements in FPS PvP is that when teams get unbalanced, you are automatically transferred to the other side. In a game such as CoH, I can't see how that would work. PvPers tend to denigrate RPers, but the point of "good v. evil" and "hero v. villain" is that people have chosen sides. I don't much care when I get switched from Allies to Axis in Call of Duty because it's just the same bag of hit points and same amount of damage-dealing with a different appearance. Some servers even go further and equalize all the weapons, so they don't resemble their real-world counterparts at all. All guns do the same damage and have the same number of bullets.
Would anyone, even hardcore PvPers, accept that in this game? Even in the name of keeping teams balanced? I suspect the answer is "no."
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
In my opinion, PvP could be completely removed from this game and the vast majority of the player base would not notice, and likely a small percentage would applaud it's removal. So I very much doubt improved PvP is important for the future of this game at all.
"I accidently killed Synapse, do we need to restart the mission?" - The Oldest One on Lord Recluses Strike Force
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oh never said the devs weren't at fault for I13, but i think you're deluding yourself if the "future of the product" relies on pvp.|
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
yes it wouldn't do anything except get rid of some current subscribers and their friends, have one less feature than other "mainstream" mmos, prevent potential customers who have some interest in pvp from joining and alienate more and more people when they get bored with pve or see pvp as endgame content.
i think you are missing the parts where i'm quoting positron, just sayin' edit- who really has their head in the sand like a certain bird? me or the development team that created this "asinine" pvp system who made promises to paying customers but never followed through? |
it doesn't.
I still state that if they got rid of pvp today, it wouldn't be drop in the bucket for the game.
I12 pretty much did what you just stated.
As I said before, I'd bet money that a majority of players care more about getting an actual endgame (that some would argue this game really doesn't have--though I don't agree with that) than pvp.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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LOL, who in the world said the devs don't care about it?|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I don't think the Devs want to alienate any group of players. Since PVP exist as part of the game, they will want to make it as good as possible. By saying that they aren't concerned about it because they haven addressed it yet just falls into the fallacy as the OP.
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I love how folks are reading into what I said.
What I stated was that MOST players don't give a damn about pvp.
Same as SOME players don't give a damn about bases, AE, etc, etc. Does that mean that the devs should give up on it?
NO.
My point is that the idea that the future of this product rests on pvp is silly.
They can put as much time into it as they want, but I'd rather that in doing that they focus on improving it for THOSE THAT WANT TO PVP, and not some imaginary focus that "more people will pvp" if we just make it in a way to try to draw in more folks who never cared about pvp in the first place.
THAT kind of thinking is what got us I13.
The OP and everyone else should be focused on improving pvp for those who WANT to pvp. Namely getting rid of a lot of the things that don't work in the I13 version.
There. Is that clear enough?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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read, pay attention and think first before you post replies in the future.|
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
read, pay attention and think first before you post replies in the future.
i'll simplify things for you and your funny logic. you call me a "troll" for pointing out an "asinine" system and wanting tangible rewards with reasonable timers and cost but you who called me a "troll" is now in another thread pointing out an "asinine" system and wanting tangible rewards with reasonable timers. so if complaining about a game system makes one a "troll" as you say then by your own definition we are both in the same boat. funny how that works out huh? but just keep on trying to insult others for complaining until it suits your purpose to complain. all in all though i'm really glad to see some real logic being used by you about this pvp topic. |
i'll simplify things for you and your funny logic.
the Hero/Villain merit stores have nothing to do with the DROP TIMERS IN PVP ZONES AND ARENAS.
If you want to complain about the drop timers for pvp IOs when they drop from pvp, that's a completely different issue.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
As a former CAL league player who had a VERY good clan in SOF2 and in TFC the auto target in CoX is not an issue.
Good players rarely miss.
Awareness is in understanding zones of fire and control of those zones. In combat once it comes to it most times the first to sight - wins. I was a sniper and almost never missed and I was often cited for having a bot (tho I never have cheated).
PvP with this fast paced of a game needs the MAP to dictate the play. If we go to the old Dustbowl map - only 2 ways out of the first zone. Two. Now let put in a buffable/healable wall to block them. Now this introduces TACTICS - do you try and blast one down and try to jam though or sit back and use blaster sniping + Stalker A/S to take one down. Once a wall is down just like in Dustbowl is stays down its defeated and the game moves back to the next area.
Seriously, this game could be incredible in PvP.
Let me give you a Dustbowl remake play-by-play.
The opening siren sounds and the 2 gates open allowing access out.
Attacking team bursts a tank from gate one and a stalker out of gate 2. The tank gets hit hard by both a sniper from an AR blaster and a stalker who drops him drastically in health, the stalker slips out zips to cover on the far left of the map and activates team recall. The tank ignores the recall drawing fire from the defending team. Now the other seven break out into action - the Stalker slides out and AS kills the blaster who was focused on the Tank. As he pops out to AS an invisible Mastermind lets his pets loose on the unwary stalker. The blaster dies and rez's back at blues base. He drops back to cover the gates that are being held by a defender and a corruptor.
The one gate is invisibly bubbled and until attacked doesn't show his presence. Gate 2 is covered in a Cold shield and all attackers keep being slowed and falling on the ice.
This can play out in many ways with the entrance to a room being invisibly buffed/debuffed until attacked. Also the slows of Tarpit and ice slick/patch would drop you out of travel powers. You can't just TP into an area and grab the flag. If you hit a flag door it supresses all travel except sprint and all stealth. The last 100 feet is on planning or sheer guts.
The gameplay would be VERY fun and all players can contribute - the EngineerMedic in TFC is similar to MM/Controller/Def you have the chance to heal/rebuild walls or NPC features.
I see merely a lack of vision that I would love to fix if you allowed the same type of access to us ain PvP editting as we have in PvE AE missions.
Let US the players make it FOR YOU. Let us set the rules and make the maps.
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here's the thing about the end game though. posi has said it would be doled out over multiple issues. and alot of speculation makes it sound like i19 will have *just* alpha (maybe the second level as well) and 1 tf (so in my mind, i15 2.0) which really makes me wonder, what else are they going to put out in these issues. certainly it wouldn't be *just* this stuff since that would be way to light (especially if they're more than 4 months apart).|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
oh never said the devs weren't at fault for I13, but i think you're deluding yourself if the "future of the product" relies on pvp.
it doesn't. I still state that if they got rid of pvp today, it wouldn't be drop in the bucket for the game. I12 pretty much did what you just stated. As I said before, I'd bet money that a majority of players care more about getting an actual endgame (that some would argue this game really doesn't have--though I don't agree with that) than pvp. |
Personally I've been wanting endgame and pvp fixes/stuff for a long *long* time. if i19 would have been entirely dedicated to endgame/higher praetoria stuff and i20 would include(since everyone is assuming it'll be very large) some pvp fixes and maybe even, gasp!, base raids then that'd be a fine time table. the fact that it is going to be over multiple issues really makes me think that there is plenty of space/time to put it *some* pvp fixes or, hell, even bug fixes in with recent issues making the pvp community somewhat happier and not taking a large portion of stuff out of the issues for the pve people. of course reversion is the easiest, quickest and least time consuming answer to pvp and would probably go a long way.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Personally I think the game would be best served by eliminating any PvP-specific powerset adjustments and not allow the PvP game to run any differently than the PvE game. Therefore any changes to PvP come directly from PvE changes, and minimal extra effort is needed by the dev team to "make PvP work" in this game.
Let's not kid ourselves - this game was not remotely designed with PvP in mind. It was tacked on nearly 2 years later, coming about in preparation for, and in the wake of, CoV. How much time have the devs spent working and reworking PvP to no positive benefit? Wouldn't PvP have been better if it just remained consistent with the rules of the PvE game?
And think what all that effort could have been spent better on, towards the advancement of the rest of the game? I can't imagine we'd have less PvP players than we do now. And it's quite possible we'd have more players total, given more improvements in the PvE game that would have taken place in lieu of the wasted changes on PvP.
I'd go as far as to suggest this game would have been better without PvP in the first place. Perhaps those 4 zones could have been better put to use in another capacity, and however many missions created as a result. I could still see PvP in the form of arena matches, however. But considering how insignificant PvP has been in this game for it's total lifespan, I think the future of the product could have been better served by attention having gone elsewhere.
I think the future of CoH lies with PvE, not PvP, to be brutally honest.
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I agree, a game revolving around super heroes/villains where they don't fight each other. It makes tons of sense.
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Originally Posted by Rooftop_Raider
I'd go as far as to suggest this game would have been better without PvP in the first place. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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When Positron says 'for the entire future of the product' he is speaking in a purely temporal fashion. He's talking about maintaining and improving PvP for as long as the game exists, rather than, as he says, just Issue 13. Whereas the thread title lacks the context and thus seems to imply that the future of the game depends upon PVP. It is that implication of dependance which, I believe, Memphis_Bill is saying is laughable, and it is an implication unsupported by the Positron quote.
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Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
let us look at that again.
just incase you missed it. <Positron and other triplicated quotes snipped> |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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It's just a better use of resources than throwing a ton of it into PvP and making it as unpalatable as it is now. You can selectively-quote for some sense of satisfaction, and in lieu of making any significant point - it won't change anything. PvP in this game sucks in it's current incarnation, and this game would have been better off putting it's resources elsewhere, than to have it in it's current state.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
I agree, a game revolving around super heroes/villains where they don't fight each other. It makes tons of sense.
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Now, would I approve of PvP in some form in this game, over no PvP at all? Yes. But it has to make sense. It doesn't now, and there's no reason to play it. But the truth is this game wasn't designed from the ground up as a PvP-influenced game. It was bred into it, and then torn up.
PvP was more fun before I13, and it was still in bad shape then. It just got worse, in spite of the effort spent towards "improving" it. I do think that this game would have been better served for PvP not to happen at all, then to go through all the sweeping changes it's gone though. But I think a minimalist approach to evolving and improving PvP would have been the best option, all told.
I would rather have the Arena like the AE where WE get to set the power-style, create the maps and basically let us PvP how we would like to.
That would be a HUGE addition. Have you ever seen how many player made maps you get in Halflife, Left for dead, Soldier of Fortune and every single FPS out there!
Let us do PvP for you Devs. Only spend the money necessary to give us the tools and let us craft the maps and game play.
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It is unsurprising that you chose to remove the context of that qoute to attempt this snark. It allowed you to build such a wonderful strawman.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
I agree, a game revolving around super heroes/villains where they don't fight each other. It makes tons of sense.
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--Rad
/whereami:
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apparently you would rather be on the trademark bandwagon than read, pay attention and think before you post.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
read, pay attention and think first before you post replies in the future.
i'll simplify things for you and your funny logic. the Hero/Villain merit stores have nothing to do with the DROP TIMERS IN PVP ZONES AND ARENAS. If you want to complain about the drop timers for pvp IOs when they drop from pvp, that's a completely different issue. |
point is mr. pot calling the kettle black, you look pretty "asinine" calling me "mr. troll" for complaining about a reward and game system then jumping threads and complain about a reward and game system.
i know you won't get it now so i will be patient from now on and let slide your trademark bandwagon insults because i have faith that you will eventually understand things 2 years later just like MB.
once they added pvp IO rewards to the hvam system it became a big part of this "asinine" pvp package.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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what context? that entire paragraph was about how the time spent on pvp (which quite frankly was 2-3 issues, maybe) would have been better spent on something else. just because he said arena play would still be fine doesn't take away from that (because how often does the joker tell batman to head to the arena before they can duke it out.)|
Originally Posted by Radionuclide
It is unsurprising that you chose to remove the context of that qoute to attempt this snark. It allowed you to build such a wonderful strawman.
--Rad |
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| It's just a better use of resources than throwing a ton of it into PvP and making it as unpalatable as it is now. You can selectively-quote for some sense of satisfaction, and in lieu of making any significant point - it won't change anything. PvP in this game sucks in it's current incarnation, and this game would have been better off putting it's resources elsewhere, than to have it in it's current state. |
Yes, you're right. the time spent on i13 would have been much better spent on something else than on pvp but this is entirely because the devs went about implementing and chagning it all wrong. They f**** it up, plain and simple, and simply washing their hands of it and, literally, stoping all communitcation, support, and ties to pvp in anyway shape or form isn't the way to go about it. Spending 1 issue on pvp and/or base raids(which also wouldn't be enough to make up an entire issue obviously) could have a very positive impact on the community. bring in old pvpers that left because of pvp changes, bring in new ways for current players to experience pvp, and make your current pvp community much much much happier.
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| Now, would I approve of PvP in some form in this game, over no PvP at all? Yes. But it has to make sense. It doesn't now, and there's no reason to play it. |
Also, just to point out, this is why the large majority of the pvp community wants a reversion to pre-13 because you're right, it makes no sense what-so-ever now. A reversion would be an immediate fix, or rather a do-over, make the community much happier, and be the least time consuming/resource consuming anwser.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
We get page after page of 3 people splitting hairs and calling each other idiots in a way so as not to get banned.
Can we stay on topic?
PvP for the Future of the Product.
Can you add suggestions, give us experiences or are we stuck listening to you argue semantics or what is, is?
Just because you're not actively attacking or being attacked doesn't mean there's not confrontation going on - PvP is mental just as much as it is knowing what buttons to press. When I'm on my Fort, I'm jumping around looking for Stalkers to drop out of hide, but just because I'm not being attacked doesn't mean I'm not aware of what's going on. I keep track of exactly where my teammates are so I don't wander away, and I keep track of the closest geometry so I can make a getaway if things get hairy. When I'm on my Stalker, I keep track of what's around my target so I don't AS someone when there are a dozen enemies waiting to kill me once I come out of hide. When I'm on my Emp I'm keeping track of my teammates and watching their buff bars for incoming spikes, or just to see if their buffs are about to expire, all the while making sure I am not becoming an easy target.
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."