pvp for the future of the product
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-29 11:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Not an MMO by any stretch of the word.
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Originally Posted by Jbot
Uhh...
Call of duty? |
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Aion? Though "better" is still to be seen, long term (and US/EU as opposed to Asia,) they most certainly are PVP focused. Much of what you do is in the Abyss, and post-20, there's only one zone that's free from rifters coming out to do missions and hunt.
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Not an MMO by any stretch of the word.
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If Aion is doing so much better than CoH why have they recently had huge server cuts? (from 13 US servers to 4).
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Aion? Though "better" is still to be seen, long term (and US/EU as opposed to Asia,) they most certainly are PVP focused. Much of what you do is in the Abyss, and post-20, there's only one zone that's free from rifters coming out to do missions and hunt.
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To be fair to Doom, when you're a scientific and magical genius and ruler of your own sovereign nation, squirrel-proofing your armors does seem a bit excessive. Still, he probably should have done so after she beat him the first time.
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Originally Posted by Lightfoot
This.
Squirrel Girl > Doctor Doom 'Nuff said!  |
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
I'd like to see pvp reverted back to pre-i13. Yes i started when i14 came out but my partners played CoV since CoV launch and he's always telling me about his old pvp days. He won't pvp anymore due to the travel suppresion and holds etc lasting milliseconds. He used to pvp a Dark/Dark/Soul corruptor with ease and now even my fire blaster can shred him easily.
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Well, Aion does not seem to be doing all that well, and A_S did say "several". So far his "several" seems to translate to "zero" since he hasn't actually offered a one as an example.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Aion? Though "better" is still to be seen, long term (and US/EU as opposed to Asia,) they most certainly are PVP focused. Much of what you do is in the Abyss, and post-20, there's only one zone that's free from rifters coming out to do missions and hunt.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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You did see the "Better is yet to be seen," right?|
Originally Posted by Death_Badger
If Aion is doing so much better than CoH why have they recently had huge server cuts? (from 13 US servers to 4).
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Plus, unlike us, there's a tie to PVP that's absolutely needed for some main-quest arcs in the game. Population *density* is far more important to keep that happening there - as opposed to COH. (Should also be noted that you can only have one "side" per server - if you make an Elyos, you cannot make an Asmodean on that server. It'd be like forcing you to have servers as hero or villain only.)
Going to have to ask the mods' forbearance here. This contrast is actually needed.
For instance:
"Kill X rank 9 Asmodeans." Rank = PVP rank. And it keeps going up. This isn't a *required* quest, but it helps get some rewards. And as the rank goes up, the number of people WITH that rank obviously gets lower. If there aren't enough people, you're not going to finish that in anything close to a timely fashion.
"Rescue prisoners from location." Sounds straightforward, yes? However, the prisoners you rescue rely on PVP - specifically Fort raids.
Let me lay this out to you. There's an area called the Abyss. Three layers to it. Each layer has forts which control one of four areas in the top or bottom layer (the middle layer is the huge, extra-difficult one. I think, in the seven months I played, I'd heard of it being taken twice - once in asia, once in the US.) The forts can be held by Asmodeans, Elyos, or the NPC Balaur.
Fort raids themselves are major undertakings, typically requiring multiple Legions to take Artifacts (support powers and staging areas,) take down the guards - PC and NPC - and fight the Guardian Deity General. If there's little to no opposition, an area can be kept under control for months (part of the problem pre-server merge.)
Now, you get a quest to rescue the prisoners. For there to BE prisoners, the opposite side has to control the area. If the opposite side doesn't have the population to do so, *you can never finish that quest.* I had that sitting in my queue for weeks on Ariel on my main - to the point that, when control finally switched, my Ranger was absolutely overpowered for the NPC guards.
Last but not least, being a gear-based game, you *have* to PVP to really get to the best equipment - "Gold" gear - which gives considerable boosts to things like runspeed and attack speed. (An alternate path, getting "flash" armor, requires getting five characters to 30 and sending/trading/etc. the armor over to a character.... and there are upgrades, IIRC, farther down the line.)
Part of the concern with the merging, too (and I need to follow up on this once the Aion site comes up, now that my curiosity's been raised again) is that the newly-merged and newly-transferred servers would still have a race imbalance, leading to the same situation all over again.
TL;DR version: Aion requires not just population, but a certain density of population, due to its PVP centric nature. It actually CAN have the problem of "not enough people on a server" to affect gameplay.
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I'm actually fine with holds lasting milliseconds.|
Originally Posted by TameDragon
I'd like to see pvp reverted back to pre-i13. Yes i started when i14 came out but my partners played CoV since CoV launch and he's always telling me about his old pvp days. He won't pvp anymore due to the travel suppresion and holds etc lasting milliseconds. He used to pvp a Dark/Dark/Soul corruptor with ease and now even my fire blaster can shred him easily.
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The mez system of I12 was garbage.
It's the only the part of I12 I'm glad went away.
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And this is inherently the problem with games that put so much focus on pvp, if they don't have the pop to sustain it.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
TL;DR version: Aion requires not just population, but a certain density of population, due to its PVP centric nature. It actually CAN have the problem of "not enough people on a server" to affect gameplay. |
It's also a diminishing cycle. Those there for the pvp see that there is no one there to do so, so they quit. So then there are even less people to pvp there. Something like that happening here isn't all that bad since there is PVE to fall back on for the companies producing this game. For a game as pvp-focused as you make Aion out to be, that's not a good thing.
To have that much pvp focus (as you say Aion has) you need to start the game out with LESS servers. Certainly LESS than 14. Take a look at Darkfall's approach. If the pop is too spread out there are less targets, and thus we are right back to where we are in my paragraph above. It's also why I'm ALWAYS against silly suggestions of adding more pvp zones in this game.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I don't think anyone is expecting perfect PvP with this game, but i think more effort could be done to move the playstyle into a more comfortable position and let people have fun with it.
I've said it before, because I mention it every time it comes up, and I'll say it again, because I mention it every time it comes up. The PvP mechanics can certainly be improved, but there is no change that can be made to the PvP combat mechanics that will make PvP fun and popular. PvP in this game has basically only ever been fun when a lot of people are PvPing, and the only way to make a lot of people do anything in this game is to bribe them for doing it.
So, once again, I propose rewards for PvP commensurate with rewards for PvE. A modest reward for losing, a good reward for winning. XP, inf, drops, merits, the whole shebang. Anything less, and PvP remains a marginal activity that will get - and deserve - about as much attention as base building.
@SPTrashcan
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I gave up on PvP for this game.
Repeatedly myself and others have tried to address the problems and how they can be fixed. All of our input was wasted.
Look the fixes are fairly simple to make it fun:
Capture the flag - use a gameplay similar to Halflife Team Fortress Classic. The old Dustbowl map is a classic and would be a welcome addition. Imagince if defenders could buff walls that sealed off a flag - if they could heal damaged fortifications.
Escort or briefcase missions. What if you have to get a case out of a building in a 10 minute timer? All while facing a torrent of damage and defenders/controllers raising walls and slowing you down. Then since its a tournament setting you get to defend yourself next time.
The game is made to have awesome battles instead we get a boring arena or a wide open strafe festival. You get flavor of the month builds that are untouchable by normal heroes instead of jobs given for each class.
I have seen nothing approaching the true creativity that could make this an amazing PvP game.
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I disagree ST. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I've said it before, because I mention it every time it comes up, and I'll say it again, because I mention it every time it comes up. The PvP mechanics can certainly be improved, but there is no change that can be made to the PvP combat mechanics that will make PvP fun and popular. PvP in this game has basically only ever been fun when a lot of people are PvPing, and the only way to make a lot of people do anything in this game is to bribe them for doing it.
So, once again, I propose rewards for PvP commensurate with rewards for PvE. A modest reward for losing, a good reward for winning. XP, inf, drops, merits, the whole shebang. Anything less, and PvP remains a marginal activity that will get - and deserve - about as much attention as base building. |
The PvPers asked for arena's so they could challenge each other, and, said at the time they were not concered about rewards, they simply wanted to be able to play other against the other player for the challenge.
Arena's came out, and pvpers complained the arena's were to sterile, and they did not like the rules, and they wanted to be able to play on a map with NPCs to cause more challenge. They got that in the warzones.
To bribe the very vocal PvE players, they did the asinine thing and but badges and temp powers that were overly powerful in the warzones. It worked, for a time. Most of those PvE players never became PvPers so the population did not increase much.
PvPers wanted rewards, special PvP IO sets. They got them. It took 7 issues but they got them. Yet the very thing they asked for caused a nerf that pushed many of the PvPers away. (The last sentence is in part speculation about the nerf, I will admit.)
There is nothing wrong with PvP. Whatever floats your boat, I say. When a badge hunter logs in and whines about how evil the PvPers are in warzones, and they won't leave them alone, I have no sympathy. The moment you go into the PvP zone, you are PvPing. I know this, as a PvE player. The simple fact is that PvP was not what drew most of the players here, and it is not what keeps them here. This genre may sound like it's perfect for PvP, but it is not.
There are several rules that comic conventions follow, that PvPers and the gaming conventions do not follow. The two really do not mesh all that well.
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Tinfoil hat time!|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The various suppressions - I could see what the devs were trying to do when it was being beta'd, but it seriously fell apart, and I'd call the situation now far more horrible than anything that happened - oh, I'd put it between I8 and I13 (once they had various geometry holes plugged, a few extra reinforcing drones, and the roof put on the villain hospital.)
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When Posi promised to continue working on PvP post i-13, I think he was working under the assumption that there'd be people PvPing. When nobody (relatively speaking) showed up on the live servers even to try out the changes, NCSoft (Clayton?) probably stepped in and said, "We're not seeing the same return on developer resources from PvP that we see from expanding PvE content. Suck it up." Posi most likely made the promise in good faith, but a business decision was made to make him eat his words.
Jack, for all his problems, at least submits himself to the occasional public flogging.
/tinfoil fat
I13 gave the devs a LOT of numbers to twiddle in order to achieve some kind of balance, far more than the previous system. But ... they lost all momentum in actually fiddling with the numbers BEFORE THE ISSUE EVEN WENT LIVE. They knowingly released a flawed system under the expectation that they'd get around to fixing it. And then didn't.
That's bad on two levels: 1.) MMO players give a feature one chance, and one chance only -- get it wrong, and they won't come back; 2.) they promised to update PvP on an ongoing basis and didn't -- you shouldn't lie to your customers. And lying to your customers twice (I4, also)? Bwahahaha.
But here's what kills me: the devs completely rewrote the rules for how powers work in PvP and then didn't explain the rules. And, despite their promises to give us the numbers, I don't see anything in-game that tells me how my bubbler's buffs work in PvP.
There is a critical difference between rewarding PvP - the specific act of attacking and being attacked by player characters (or supporting player characters who are engaged in same) - and rewarding avoiding PvP in a PvP zone, which is what badges, nukes, shivans etc. do. Rewards for PvP induce a positive feedback loop in zone population: the more people there are in the zone, the higher the chance of engaging in PvP and earning rewards, repeat. Rewards for PvP-adjacent activities induce a negative feedback loop: people come for the rewards, people come to fight those people, the difficulty of obtaining the rewards goes up, the people seeking the rewards leave, the people who came to fight get bored and leave, repeat.
This is Dumb.
@SPTrashcan
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I have always said we need some form of purposed PvP. You shouldn't be flagged for PvP for going in Warburg, but if you decide to go for the missiles, then all bets are off. This would allow badgers to move through the zone without being hassled.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
My issues w/ pvp may be shared by others. If things were different, perhaps the pvp community would be larger.
I'd love to pvp. I had taken my toons into pvp zones and got stomped every time and that's a drag. So I decided to hold out til I can get the dough for a pimped out toon of the appropriate sort. Idk which kind.
Then the rules all changed. And now I really don't know what to make or how to build it. I don't understand the mechanics of it. The few posts I have seen explaining the mechanics involve advanced math of some sort. Color me meh about doing that just to play.
If I could use my current pve toons with some success,
OR
If I could easily determine how to build what sort of toon,
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If pvp were just more user friendly (user friendly in my opinion anyway)
I'd be all about it.
It's possible that there are other folks with the same opinions about it out there.
Currently, the learning curve and effort involved push it pretty far down on my CoX priority list.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
lets be reasonable, across multiple mmo's, no pvp community is ever happy, ever. but rolling back to i12 seems to be the least that could be done.
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This can't be stressed enough. There were parts of I13's mechanics that were OK, but mostly it's a mess.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
EvilGeko's PvP wishlist:
- Cross-server Arena matching
- Gladiator merits - WOOT another token, this time solely for PvP rewards. Awarded for participating in Arena battles and completing zone PvP games.
- More PvP inventions
- Ability to flag yourself for open PvP based on Alignment (i.e. Vigilantes can fight Villains/Rogues in RI; Rogues can fight Heroes/Vigilantes in Paragon if all opponents flagged)
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Sounds fun
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Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
Free for all deathmatch-style PVP is just not suited to the way CoH works. We need team and objectives based PVP in the form of scripted zones and missions.
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this is something i would love to see. default flag off of course, and high traffic areas such as went's/market, within 100' of trainers, train stations, etc marked off limits to pvp. alternatively, flagging allows for pvp style bank missions incorporating assets that already exist, are destructible, and have clearly defined goals in:rob bank and leave; stop robbing bank for short period of time(?maybe? this has wiggle room). effectively a dressed up capture the flag scenario. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
EvilGeko's PvP wishlist:
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it might make for an interesting test ground.
Kittens give Morbo gas.
I'd like to see the PvP changes rolled back just so I can go into the PvP zones and get the shivans or missiles without having my powers go all wonky. Given the hours I play, there were never anyone in the zones prior to I13 and I enjoyed hunting some enemy groups there just because the scenery was new as well.
@Doctor Gemini
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First 4 aren't bad, though adding yet another merit system to the game, I'm not thrilled for. Maybe if it replaced the regular drops- a more-frequent reward that you can use to purchase the PvP rewards...|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
EvilGeko's PvP wishlist:
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Fifth one? Well, there are a few things to iron out.
-social issues: there's a good portion of the PvE community that wants total segregation, and there will be a good portion of the PvP community that will be irked when they're flagged for fighting when all their potential prey isn't. The result is usually bitterness by both parties- one annoyed at the battles raging around them, the other grouchy that so little prey wants to participate. PvP zones at least concentrated players with similar intent (PvP) in a common area.
-Technical issues
- You're flagged PvP on a team, your teammates aren't. Do their buffs/heals affect you? Are they auto-flagged PvP for assisting you?
- Is there a cooldown / switch timer for PvP, or can I toggle off my PvP flag mid battle? Can I suddenly toggle it on and jump someone without any warning?
- Bystander buffs. How do they apply?
I wouldn't mind trying it, though I probably wouldn't instigate much. When I've played full-zone PvP like AoC, I preferred straight-up fights where my foe knew I was coming and wanted a fight... rather than sneaking up on someone trying to complete a PvE mission or talk to a contact (AoC cutscene ambushes seemed to be 99% of my deaths). Guess I'd probably get much more use out of a /duel command.
Just asking this question, because I can't recall if anything like this has been tried. Has there ever been an attempt by the playerbase to categorize a specific server as a PvP server? IE, we have an unofficial RP server in Virtue - so has there ever been a concerted effort to label one server a PvP server, where people who want to play a PvP-centric toon with a higher number of players?
really I think at this point it'd be better if we could just get a redname post (castle is the first that comes to mind since he's the powers guy, or posi since he made the sig promise) that would say anything. I had friends go to SDCC and specifically asked about pvp (to WW iirc, very broad questions as well) and got the "i can't comment" bit.
personally, for me, it'd be nice if they just came out and said they weren't messing with pvp anymore cuz they broke it and I could quit.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.