pvp for the future of the product
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-29 11:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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PvP was given it's own section, maybe this should be moved ^_^.
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
well to be honest that is the big discussion about pvp in the future because alot of pver's dont' think it should be fixed.
and to be honest, the OP was one in a series of troll posts by O_I, there are already 3 threads in the pvp forums (which the devs don't pay attention to after being up for years) to accomplish what you want here. |
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But would it matter?|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
Also, just to point out, this is why the large majority of the pvp community wants a reversion to pre-13 because you're right, it makes no sense what-so-ever now. A reversion would be an immediate fix, or rather a do-over, make the community much happier, and be the least time consuming/resource consuming anwser.
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Look, the change was made because the numbers of PvP'ers were already reaching unsustainable numbers. They made a drastic change in the hopes to turn that around, because without a turnaround the PvP population wouldn't merit much dev time.
Yes, it backfired... it pissed off many that LIKED the drawbacks of the previous system while failing to attract many of the people they hoped by (theoretically) opening more builds up to competitive play. Heck, many of the casuals, like me, decided not to bother learning the new rules. We just found our fun elsewhere (which is easy to do, when the PvP experience (while fun) has some of the lowest moments of jerkwaddery I've experienced in the game too.)
It did NOT have the desired effect.
...but the PvP population is even smaller now. Many have sworn that they'd never come back. How many people that DON'T use this system will return and stay if the system is reverted? We already know that the beloved pre-13 system was craptastic at attracting and retaining users, after all, so we gotta rely on getting back those that quit due to the change...
I sure couldn't sell the idea of putting ANY dev time into it if the best results of a "revert to pre I13" effort is "the same people that play and complain now are playing and kindasortamaybe complaining less now, the ones that quit over it aren't coming back, the few that liked the change are clamoring that their fav characters are gimped, and the ones that ignored PvP continue to do so." Heck, I'd have a better time making the case to roll the dice on ANOTHER total PvP revamp that had the potential to attract a market that was untapped before.
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yes|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
But would it matter?
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| Look, the change was made because the numbers of PvP'ers were already reaching unsustainable numbers. They made a drastic change in the hopes to turn that around, because without a turnaround the PvP population wouldn't merit much dev time. |
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...but the PvP population is even smaller now. Many have sworn that they'd never come back. How many people that DON'T use this system will return and stay if the system is reverted? We already know that the beloved pre-13 system was craptastic at attracting and retaining users, after all, so we gotta rely on getting back those that quit due to the change... I sure couldn't sell the idea of putting ANY dev time into it if the best results of a "revert to pre I13" effort is "the same people that play and complain now are playing and kindasortamaybe complaining less now, the ones that quit over it aren't coming back, the few that liked the change are clamoring that their fav characters are gimped, and the ones that ignored PvP continue to do so." Heck, I'd have a better time making the case to roll the dice on ANOTHER total PvP revamp that had the potential to attract a market that was untapped before. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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You don't understand the context. Ok cliff noters version. PvP has never been a big draw in this game. People did it but, was never big. The devs spend resources to attract more people to the system (i.e. Issue 13). We both agree it failed, no? Were those resources spent wisely? I don't think so, and in hindsight it may have been better had they not bolted on a PvP system to a game that was designed without it. This has nothing to do with the RP reason for PvP. I agree that in the context of the game PvP should exist.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
what context? that entire paragraph was about how the time spent on pvp (which quite frankly was 2-3 issues, maybe) would have been better spent on something else. just because he said arena play would still be fine doesn't take away from that (because how often does the joker tell batman to head to the arena before they can duke it out.)
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| Yes, you're right. the time spent on i13 would have been much better spent on something else than on pvp but this is entirely because the devs went about implementing and chagning it all wrong. They f**** it up, plain and simple, and simply washing their hands of it and, literally, stoping all communitcation, support, and ties to pvp in anyway shape or form isn't the way to go about it. Spending 1 issue on pvp and/or base raids(which also wouldn't be enough to make up an entire issue obviously) could have a very positive impact on the community. bring in old pvpers that left because of pvp changes, bring in new ways for current players to experience pvp, and make your current pvp community much much much happier. |
To me that one snippet you qouted from that post was out of context because, the PvP ship has sailed for this game. The future is PvE. Sorry, you don't see it that way. But, the old PvP community is not coming back even with reversion to issue 12. This is a 6 year old game. It is unlikely that those that are interested in this game for PvP have not already tried it and are either here playing such as yourself or macskull or they have already left do to the changed made. It would accomplish one thing only. appease those that remained. Not that I think that is a bad thing.
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| whats the reason to RP? whats the reason behind badging? whats the reason behind pve in general? fun. plain and simple. pvp, generally speaking, was/is very fun for its participants. even in it's current very watered down state, its still more challenging and difficult than any pve content (exception being CoP but you wanna talk about having no reason to play something....) |
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| Also, just to point out, this is why the large majority of the pvp community wants a reversion to pre-13 because you're right, it makes no sense what-so-ever now. A reversion would be an immediate fix, or rather a do-over, make the community much happier, and be the least time consuming/resource consuming anwser. |
--Rad
/whereami:
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Oh yeah. Just like how fights in the comics, cartoons and movies all revolve around combatants constantly bunnyhopping, drive-by superspeed attacks, kiting, and 95% of the villains being assassins.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
I agree, a game revolving around super heroes/villains where they don't fight each other. It makes tons of sense.
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Or like how, for all intents and purposes, Green Lantern is pretty much invincible due to his ability to lock down his opponents.
Yup, exactly like how superheroes and supervillains fight.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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That's my point. Pre-I13 PvP was at a crossroads- either do something drastic, hoping to increase participants, or let it continue to fade into obscurity, because it's a resource drain. They tried the drastic change and it failed.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
because it merits so much dev time now? |
It's now at the point where you have to seriously question the resources it demands. Setting things back to I13 just means spending resources on a aspect of play that brings marginal & diminishing value to the overall base just so it can continue being of marginal & diminishing value to the overall base.
We need to expand that relevance to convince the devs that it isn't wasted resources. Ironic as it sounds, we need to get more people to play the current system to encourage the devs to revisit it and CHANGE the current system.
it wont matter cause they wont address the issues still plagued
scrappers need a big time nerf to stop the over population of.its clearly the biggest used a.t. in pvp for both hero and villians.their are more scrappers then anything!
/ss need to be nerfed...not the damage but the extra +tohit with rage needs to be fixed/nerfed/balanced. with it right now kob and its extra specials like the foe hold to it are spammed all over the place making it down unbalanced.id say kob recharge needs to be "reworked" or whatever the devs call it.
with the same devs doing the pvp rework as the last 2 times...it wont matter cause they truly didnt listen last time.it took them years to fix burn for crying out loud and that wasnt even pvp.it was just one power!! how am i to believe they gonna fix anything at their slow current rate or any fix.
not to mention does anyone really want them touching pvp ?...bases are long overdue and wouldnt take any time or effort to unlock thousands of already in game functions for bases.
but no...........we gotta touch pvp for a what 4th time now?....gee no thanks.
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Well Super Speeder drive bys? That's how Wally took out Brainiac/Luther in JLU.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Oh yeah. Just like how fights in the comics, cartoons and movies all revolve around combatants constantly bunnyhopping, drive-by superspeed attacks, kiting, and 95% of the villains being assassins.
Or like how, for all intents and purposes, Green Lantern is pretty much invincible due to his ability to lock down his opponents. Yup, exactly like how superheroes and supervillains fight. |
Whenever a GL locks down an opponent they do win.
Kiting can be seen in almost every chase scene.
I've seen some comic book ninjas bunny hop but there aren't a lot of supers with jumping based powers.
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That's an interesting point considering it's pretty much false.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Oh yeah. Just like how fights in the comics, cartoons and movies all revolve around combatants constantly bunnyhopping, drive-by superspeed attacks, kiting, and 95% of the villains being assassins.
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Stalkers get a bad rap because they're easy to get kills and with shraks it's even easier to get kills.
But that doesn't mean "95%" of villain pvpers play them.
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Seeing as how those mertis you get for not pvping, no it's really not part of the pvp package.|
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
apparently you would rather be on the trademark bandwagon than read, pay attention and think before you post.
point is mr. pot calling the kettle black, you look pretty "asinine" calling me "mr. troll" for complaining about a reward and game system then jumping threads and complain about a reward and game system. i know you won't get it now so i will be patient from now on and let slide your trademark bandwagon insults because i have faith that you will eventually understand things 2 years later just like MB. once they added pvp IO rewards to the hvam system it became a big part of this "asinine" pvp package. |
Unless there is some new mysterious pvp mission that no one knows about in regards to the merit system.
And I'm not the one posting multiple threads that get locked. Amirite?
Talk about not thinking before you post.
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As I said before I honestly don't think there is anything they could do to draw more pvpers. Doesn't mean they shouldn't try.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
That's my point. Pre-I13 PvP was at a crossroads- either do something drastic, hoping to increase participants, or let it continue to fade into obscurity, because it's a resource drain. They tried the drastic change and it failed.
It's now at the point where you have to seriously question the resources it demands. Setting things back to I13 just means spending resources on a aspect of play that brings marginal & diminishing value to the overall base just so it can continue being of marginal & diminishing value to the overall base. We need to expand that relevance to convince the devs that it isn't wasted resources. Ironic as it sounds, we need to get more people to play the current system to encourage the devs to revisit it and CHANGE the current system. |
Reverting to I12 is a good idea, but it wouldn't get any additional people to pvp.
Pvp isn't relevant to the future of this product. The game will do just fine no matter what they do with pvp, since most don't care about pvp.
So might as well just eat crow and revert back to I12.
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like this !!!!
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I would rather have the Arena like the AE where WE get to set the power-style, create the maps and basically let us PvP how we would like to.
That would be a HUGE addition. Have you ever seen how many player made maps you get in Halflife, Left for dead, Soldier of Fortune and every single FPS out there! Let us do PvP for you Devs. Only spend the money necessary to give us the tools and let us craft the maps and game play. |
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ditto
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Originally Posted by lll Phoenix lll
like this !!!!
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I'd certainly like if they did something to PvP, it's the only thing that's challenging in this game. If they don't I would like them to actually add some hard PvE content, and no CoP is not hard if it can be completed in 8 minutes.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I think something radical like this would have to be done for PVP to actually thrive in an MMO environment.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I would rather have the Arena like the AE where WE get to set the power-style, create the maps and basically let us PvP how we would like to.
That would be a HUGE addition. Have you ever seen how many player made maps you get in Halflife, Left for dead, Soldier of Fortune and every single FPS out there! Let us do PvP for you Devs. Only spend the money necessary to give us the tools and let us craft the maps and game play. |
From a design perspective, I find the whole PVP problem pretty interesting.
I've come to believe that MMO and PVP aren't all that compatible. In several ways, they work at cross purposes. As just one example:
PVP: typically no investment in your character
MMO: typically built around (and dependent on) investment in your character
There have been successes in combining the design goals, but, from what I've seen so far, only at the serious expense of one set of them. To my knowledge, a happy balance has yet to be achieved.
CoH is, at its heart, not a PVP game. I'm inclined to say that trying to shoehorn PVP into it may have been the big, and unresolvable, mistake. If PVP is to be a part of CoH, should it stand apart as its own thing, maybe as a separate, but connected, game? I don't know.
But the above suggestion seems like it'd approximate that dynamic.
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Here is the thing - in many First Person Shooters (PvP) they have player made maps, special weapons behavior, limits, no limits and so on. In some you could even render gravity to null so you could fly. All while the original game remains untouched. |
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
I think something radical like this would have to be done for PVP to actually thrive in an MMO environment.
From a design perspective, I find the whole PVP problem pretty interesting. I've come to believe that MMO and PVP aren't all that compatible. In several ways, they work at cross purposes. As just one example: PVP: typically no investment in your character MMO: typically built around (and dependent on) investment in your character There have been successes in combining the design goals, but, from what I've seen so far, only at the serious expense of one set of them. To my knowledge, a happy balance has yet to be achieved. CoH is, at its heart, not a PVP game. I'm inclined to say that trying to shoehorn PVP into it may have been the big, and unresolvable, mistake. If PVP is to be a part of CoH, should it stand apart as its own thing, maybe as a separate, but connected, game? I don't know. But the above suggestion seems like it'd approximate that dynamic. |
If we had a PvP version of the AE - I have no doubt within 6 months a favorite version of powers, maps, limitations would be found. I personally used to make maps for Soldier of Fortune 2. Did you know that Counterstrike, was created by a player? It went on to become its own franchise and they hired the creator to Valve.
I say this in complete confidence that the PLAYERS would find a way to play the game that made it fun in PvP. We have glowie missions that can replicate briefcase missions. We can get Temp powers and costumes and one of those could be a Flag or Aura that showed you were a flag carrier.
Imagination and flexibility, those make for great PvP - as I said I come from a history of playing in the twitch games at a high level. This doesn't have the twitch issue but it does have many things that can replicate a similar play. I would put a Blaster snipe that has a message that says: HEADSHOT! and does a Critical damage. I mean in PvP if you have the time to hit a snipe you deserve the kill.
I will go a step farther.
Let's say the Devs had made the AE instead of a farm implement as it became - a PvP map inventor and with customizable bots and the ability to limit or change how powers act?
With the Bots you still would have PvE play possible.
I saw AE and the first thing I said to myself was what if we had this for PvP? I love this game and after 6+ years I am still passionate for it to reach the promise of what it could become.
What if we didn't nerf scrappers? I mean in many FPS games you have heavy hitters - Chaingun guy in TFC. Guess what? If I can change how the powers interact in PvP made maps - I make scrappers weak against elemental damage. Fire/Ice/Earth/Gravity/Storm and now he has a hole in his armor. So just like every FPS game out there a balance occurs.
Ever play left for dead? Multiplayer where one side is Zombie specials and the other side is survivors - all have serious advantages if played well and disadvantages if your opponent reacts quickly. You pawn as the huge tank guy - well bullets don't hurt you much - but fire does 
I firmly believe the only resources the Devs need expend is to give US the tools.
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Heck, Imagine if they gave you, the MA owner, the ability to assume control of NPC's in the mission, like mastermind pets or arena pet duels. You could have a hybrid "live GameMastering" of an AE mish that blends both PvE and PvP (err.. PvGM). You'd ahve to probably scale down those rewards to avoid the obvious farming potential, but it'd be kinda like what the original Neverwinter Nights GM tools offered.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I will go a step farther.
I saw AE and the first thing I said to myself was what if we had this for PvP? I love this game and after 6+ years I am still passionate for it to reach the promise of what it could become. |
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Changing the rules, again, would alienate the people who like the current rules. And the people who left over I12 probably wouldn't come back.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Reverting to I12 is a good idea, but it wouldn't get any additional people to pvp.
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Honestly, Posi simply should've stuck to his promise to develop PvP on an ongoing basis.
Or come out and said, "It's dead. Other than fixing exploits, we're no longer working on PvP."
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I'm pretty confident in saying this.|
Originally Posted by BurningChick
Changing the rules, again, would alienate the people who like the current rules. "
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NO ONE LIKES THE CURRENT SYSTEM. not a person. it makes no sense, it's got a ton of fun fixed bugs, it sucks.
literally no one likes the current system. there's no argument for keeping it aside from putting something else in that would take any dev time away from pve. and thats just unacceptable.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Maybe this post should be moved to the PvP forum, but unfortunately that won't do anything about the real issue of the state of this game's PvP.
a) If effort was put into PvP again, how do we know it'll be for the better?
b) If it is for the better, will it be enough to make PvP popular again (or at least, as popular as it has been in the past, if not really popular)?
c) If it ends up being even worse, why put the effort into it in the first place?
We have no basis for confidence that it'll be improved, and if so, if that will have a significant impact on the game.
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We don't.|
Originally Posted by Rooftop_Raider
Maybe this post should be moved to the PvP forum, but unfortunately that won't do anything about the real issue of the state of this game's PvP.
a) If effort was put into PvP again, how do we know it'll be for the better? |
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| b) If it is for the better, will it be enough to make PvP popular again (or at least, as popular as it has been in the past, if not really popular)? |
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| c) If it ends up being even worse, why put the effort into it in the first place? |
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| We have no basis for confidence that it'll be improved, and if so, if that will have a significant impact on the game. |
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I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish, but trademark bandwagon is one of the best PVPers OF ALL TIME!|
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
apparently you would rather be on the trademark bandwagon than read, pay attention and think before you post.
point is mr. pot calling the kettle black, you look pretty... |
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I just did a quick tour of the PvP zones. Out of the 37 heroes I saw, 29 were Stalkers. Out of the 30 villains I saw, 27 were Stalkers. A majority of PvP folks use the gankfest classes and always will, no matter what the vocal defenders on the forums say. This game has never been able to balance it out in the slightest, it's been a rock-scissors-paper of cookie cutter builds.|
Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
That's an interesting point considering it's pretty much false.
Stalkers get a bad rap because they're easy to get kills and with shraks it's even easier to get kills. But that doesn't mean "95%" of villain pvpers play them. |
Issue 13 was an attempt to tone that down. Apparently, all it did was increase the Stalker ratio from 60-75% on the villainside to something approaching 95%.
(Also, I saw 1 Tanker.. who was getting shivans to run a TF)
Can we stay on topic?
PvP for the Future of the Product.
Can you add suggestions, give us experiences or are we stuck listening to you argue semantics or what is, is?
and to be honest, the OP was one in a series of troll posts by O_I, there are already 3 threads in the pvp forums (which the devs don't pay attention to after being up for years) to accomplish what you want here.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.