pvp for the future of the product
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-29 11:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
If there's going to be a new PvP makeover, I'd like the Devs to take a good long look at Team Fortress 2. Now look closer. Every class has a purpose, there are several objective based modes on fair, but varied maps. CoH plays fast enough to have PvP play by FPS rules. It's perfectly fine to kill someone in 2 seconds flat in an FPS, and the same can happen here in CoH.
Opposed Mayhem/Safeguards is an obvious choice, and classics like Capture the Flag, and Domination modes are never a bad idea. But CoH isn't really made for Deathmatches. The AT powers are way too different for that to ever become an even battleground. But we know that already.
Really, there's potential for a good PvP game with CoH, it has the speed and the variety to keep a good PvP community going. Except, ironically, in PvP.
I'm not that much of a PvP'er, but I really hope that PvP gets something soon. It's the big glaring weakness of CoH, I'd like to see it upgraded to something for everyone, and not by equalizing all characters, but by allowing a much greater diversity. Sure, an Earth/FF Controller isn't going to kill you fast, but he sure as heck can make life hard for you if you try to run by him to get to a control point. Where the team Stalker is probably lurking about, anyway. That's the kind of PvP I'd like to see here. Deathmatches just get old, especially when there's only a few builds that are worth it.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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Uh... Not in the slightest. The only reason you're allowed to kill someone in two seconds in an FPS game is because that requires you to have good aim, fast reflexes and not a small amount of skill. There's a reason FPS games don't have auto-targeting and randomly-missing weapons very often. City of Heroes may be fast and it may "feel" like a shooter, but it is very much not. City of Heroes is a click-n-kill RPG of a VERY archaic kind that is not applicable to shooter and fighter styles.
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Originally Posted by McNum
If there's going to be a new PvP makeover, I'd like the Devs to take a good long look at Team Fortress 2. Now look closer. Every class has a purpose, there are several objective based modes on fair, but varied maps. CoH plays fast enough to have PvP play by FPS rules. It's perfectly fine to kill someone in 2 seconds flat in an FPS, and the same can happen here in CoH.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't see much difference, to be honest. The thought "I want to attack him." turning into either a flick of the wrist and a shotgun blast or a point and a click followed by a power going off isn't the point here. The point is that for a stats based RPG, CoH is fast and has several positioning tools available.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Uh... Not in the slightest. The only reason you're allowed to kill someone in two seconds in an FPS game is because that requires you to have good aim, fast reflexes and not a small amount of skill. There's a reason FPS games don't have auto-targeting and randomly-missing weapons very often. City of Heroes may be fast and it may "feel" like a shooter, but it is very much not. City of Heroes is a click-n-kill RPG of a VERY archaic kind that is not applicable to shooter and fighter styles.
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Which is why it could benefit from the closed area, high mobility game modes commonly found in FPS games. I'm not arguing that CoH should be an FPS but it has the speed and mobility to consider if FPS game types are worth implementing. Don't try to slow the game down for PvP, keep the speed, but change the objectives of PvP. Make being able to take out another player character fast a nice ability to have, but not the only ability worth having in PvP.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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It's not as fast as you're describing it, however, especially if you consider PvP to be an offshoot of PvE. The PvE game is very slow in terms of reaction speed, at last for most ATs. The difference between "doing great" and "about to die" is so smooth and slow to occur that even the slower-paced players are able to catch it in time and react to it. I can see a battle going sour from a mile away and I have ample time to do something about it. A fight that takes two seconds from the moment I lay eyes on my enemy to the moment I'm dead does not give me anywhere near this kind of reaction time.|
Originally Posted by McNum
I don't see much difference, to be honest. The thought "I want to attack him." turning into either a flick of the wrist and a shotgun blast or a point and a click followed by a power going off isn't the point here. The point is that for a stats based RPG, CoH is fast and has several positioning tools available.
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What you're proposing sounds a lot like my experience in Battlefield 2142. That is to say, almost 90% of the time when I die, I die within a second of me becoming aware I'm even in danger and with precisely zero knowledge of what killed me. Around 90% of the rest of my deaths occur when I walk into a situation where I'm well aware of the danger, but am physically incapable of reacting to it due to game-imposed constraints such as necessary gun windup, depleted ammunition or simply being overwhelmed. I've been playing the game since it came out, and I can count the deaths I suffered where I could have easily done something about it but simply screwed up and died on the fingers of one hand. And most of the time, I die because someone tossed a grenade which exploded a millisecond after I saw it on-screen.
City of Heroes may be fast FOR A STAT-BASED MMO, but the speeds you are suggesting are far, far too fast for it. Such speeds eliminate all player participation aside from ahead-of-the-fact preparation and pretty much reduce everything to attack chains. They leave very little room to explore what I feel is this game's greatest strength in combat, which is situational awareness. The ability to see a situation as it develops in real time and decide how to react to it as it's developing. The more you take the game out of the real-time confrontation and drag it back into the ahead-of-time preparation, the less interesting PvP becomes.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And this is different from pre-I13 PvP... how? All I remember from that is a sudden case of teleportation followed by death. And if you managed to survive, the attacker would already be out of range. However, as a peak kill speed in the game, I'm okay with that, as long as there are more ways to excel in PvP than raw killing power. Take the Sniper of TF2. He can one-shot anything, even a Heavy. That's pretty much all he can do, but he's very good at it. But he's usually not running any briefcases. That'd be the Scout. And he's certainly not a frontline fighter like the Heavy or Soldier, or setting up sentries, teleporters and dispensors like the Engineer. No, he's just a guy with a rifle and an Australian accent, doing what he does best: Headshots. (And getting backstabbed by Spies.)|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's not as fast as you're describing it, however, especially if you consider PvP to be an offshoot of PvE. The PvE game is very slow in terms of reaction speed, at last for most ATs. The difference between "doing great" and "about to die" is so smooth and slow to occur that even the slower-paced players are able to catch it in time and react to it. I can see a battle going sour from a mile away and I have ample time to do something about it. A fight that takes two seconds from the moment I lay eyes on my enemy to the moment I'm dead does not give me anywhere near this kind of reaction time.
What you're proposing sounds a lot like my experience in Battlefield 2142. That is to say, almost 90% of the time when I die, I die within a second of me becoming aware I'm even in danger and with precisely zero knowledge of what killed me. Around 90% of the rest of my deaths occur when I walk into a situation where I'm well aware of the danger, but am physically incapable of reacting to it due to game-imposed constraints such as necessary gun windup, depleted ammunition or simply being overwhelmed. I've been playing the game since it came out, and I can count the deaths I suffered where I could have easily done something about it but simply screwed up and died on the fingers of one hand. And most of the time, I die because someone tossed a grenade which exploded a millisecond after I saw it on-screen. City of Heroes may be fast FOR A STAT-BASED MMO, but the speeds you are suggesting are far, far too fast for it. Such speeds eliminate all player participation aside from ahead-of-the-fact preparation and pretty much reduce everything to attack chains. They leave very little room to explore what I feel is this game's greatest strength in combat, which is situational awareness. The ability to see a situation as it develops in real time and decide how to react to it as it's developing. The more you take the game out of the real-time confrontation and drag it back into the ahead-of-time preparation, the less interesting PvP becomes. |
Yes. more often than not, a fight in CoH lasts well over 2 seconds, but a Stalker or Blaster who set themselves up for the perfect situation? 2 seconds, tops. Like it used to be. But I could easily see Tankers drawing enemy attention away, Brutes and Scrappers leaping into action with a fearless glee, Defenders trying to keep them alive and the enemies hurting and so on. It'd need teams big enough to support this kind of distinction, which is one of CoH PvP's problems. Little to no casual PvP players.
To get this to work, it's all about critical mass. You need game types that are interesting enough for the "not-Deathmatch" types of PvPers and a PvP system that's close enough to the PvE system that transition is smooth. If you get that, and get a decent amount of people to come, you can have a fun team based FPS-type/MMO-gameplay PvP experience that few if no other games can offer. Especially with the mobility powers we can have in this game. A lot of strategy will probably be on how to counter these. Dropping Caltrops for Speeders and Jumpers, having anti-Air defenses... and how do you stop Teleport, anyway? With a twisted map layout?
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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Originally Posted by McNum
And this is different from pre-I13 PvP... how? All I remember from that is a sudden case of teleportation followed by death. And if you managed to survive, the attacker would already be out of range. However, as a peak kill speed in the game, I'm okay with that, as long as there are more ways to excel in PvP than raw killing power.
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We HAD this.
Sonics had to keep up Clarity, cage people, drop Sonic Siphon and keep the shields up.
Kins had to kite IR, keep SB up, etc.
FFers could cage, use Force Bolt, use Force Bubble to move people around and put up the small bubles.
These days, it's Blasters & Emps and a Rad and maybe a Brute. The changes simply didn't need to be this severe, and it's telling that Arena matches use the No Heal Decay and No Travel Suppression options as well.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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I know, that's what makes it sad. There was a problem with not getting people into PvP, but the changes needed were not really to the powers, but to the content. Sure, we can see that some things in old PvP were plainly overpowered, but that's a small fix. What the old PvP needed was a solid answer to the question: "And why would I want to do that?" As far as I'm concerned, there's still no answer to that.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
We HAD this.
Sonics had to keep up Clarity, cage people, drop Sonic Siphon and keep the shields up. Kins had to kite IR, keep SB up, etc. FFers could cage, use Force Bolt, use Force Bubble to move people around and put up the small bubles. These days, it's Blasters & Emps and a Rad and maybe a Brute. The changes simply didn't need to be this severe, and it's telling that Arena matches use the No Heal Decay and No Travel Suppression options as well. |
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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And yet, those same casual PVP players (and I'm throwing myself in there, as I have no PVP builds, belong to no PVP SGs, and only PVP occasionally) can still manage to hold an entire zone (when busy, pre-I13 rules.) |
Originally Posted by McNum
Yes. more often than not, a fight in CoH lasts well over 2 seconds, but a Stalker or Blaster who set themselves up for the perfect situation? 2 seconds, tops. Like it used to be. But I could easily see Tankers drawing enemy attention away, Brutes and Scrappers leaping into action with a fearless glee, Defenders trying to keep them alive and the enemies hurting and so on. It'd need teams big enough to support this kind of distinction, which is one of CoH PvP's problems. Little to no casual PvP players. |
Four corruptors. We held Siren's against *determined* opposition for over half an hour.
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| To get this to work, it's all about critical mass. You need game types that are interesting enough for the "not-Deathmatch" types of PvPers and a PvP system that's close enough to the PvE system that transition is smooth. If you get that, and get a decent amount of people to come, you can have a fun team based FPS-type/MMO-gameplay PvP experience that few if no other games can offer. Especially with the mobility powers we can have in this game. A lot of strategy will probably be on how to counter these. Dropping Caltrops for Speeders and Jumpers, having anti-Air defenses... and how do you stop Teleport, anyway? With a twisted map layout? |
But you do need enough people interested to *form* those teams.
i miss the speed
the thrill of getting chased and chasing people.
i miss being able to take an so´d build into a zone and surviving on insp management.
i miss the speed.
i miss actually being able to evade in a zone and not getting debufed travel speeds thanks to using inspirations.
i miss buffers
i miss my ice/kin corr my ill/storm my spines/wp scrap and my sonic/rad fender
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I think this is ALSO one of the key issues. Every time pvp comes up many pvpers say "just form a team". I OFTEN laugh because I can count the number of in-game friends I have who are interested in pvp on one hand. Before pvp it was maybe about 2-3 more than that number.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
But you do need enough people interested to *form* those teams. |
I agree with the poster above that tangible rewards on REASONABLE timers (not what currently exists in game and certainly NOT rewards that you don't need to engage in pvp EVER to attain--looking at the silliness of shivans and nukes and how they are "pvp" rewards when I don't need to fight ANYONE EVER to get them) for losing and winning (ofcourse less for losing) is what is needed . . . you know besides getting rid of the MANY ASININE I13 pvp rules.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
memphis bill i'm really liking how you agree with me about pvp almost 2 years after our initial i13 beta song and dance. it's really awsome.
aura familia i'm just wondering how you can call me a "troll" for pointing out the poorly thought out hvam system and was looking for something more reasonable but you are now here wanting "tangible rewards on reasonable timers" and complaining about the "many asinine i13 pvp rules". pot calling the kettle black?
it is very interesting how some of you feel entitled to complain or oppose a game play mechanic when it suits your purpose but are problematic and insulting when others complain or oppose something.
all very cute though, glad to see more objective thought, and more people wanting better pvp mechanics and rewards at a reasonable rate.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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I'd like to see PVP be more than direct conflict. PVP via PVE? I'd love to see ways for us to compete with each other via other means. Broaden the ways players can compete with each other and you'll see more folks get involved.
PVP is as much spirit as it is anything else.
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Y'know, the others may complain about suppression (and the TP suppression - really, I know castle said he didn't like it and was going to revisit it, but still) and DR and whatnot, but this right here is the biggest irritant to me because I can't think of a single good reason for it. |
Originally Posted by MAD UMLAUTS
i miss the speed
i miss actually being able to evade in a zone and not getting debufed travel speeds thanks to using inspirations. |
I get the "wanting to concentrate fights" behind suppression and whatnot. But seriously - I click a yellow and I'm suppressed? I eat a green?
Yeah, I know others have a bigger impact, but this just ranks up on the "stupid" list for me.
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Originally Posted by Psyte
I'd like to see PVP be more than direct conflict. PVP via PVE? I'd love to see ways for us to compete with each other via other means. Broaden the ways players can compete with each other and you'll see more folks get involved.
PVP is as much spirit as it is anything else. |
i was fortunate enough to come across a bugged map during the i10 beta that we managed to leverage into a pvp mission that turned out great for a short while. an old shadow shard mission of mine had anchored in the now coop zone of the rwz allowing a mixed hero/villain team to enter. after entering the team auto broke, but didn't kick villains from the map most times. we could then reform into hero/villain teams and pvp throughout the shard caves, around the eyeballs, wisps and brutes. as it was a glowie mission with multiple glowies we could set rules for different win conditions.
it was great fun. i wish i'd had a mission map in the open shard, that would have been better.
it didn't last long after being /bugged. <sniff>
Kittens give Morbo gas.
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Heehee... I've been wanting paintball guns for a while, myself. And more game modes for the arena (capture the flag, a DOTA/tower-defense, Unreal tournament Assault style gameplay/maps, etc).|
Originally Posted by spice_weasel
i was fortunate enough to come across a bugged map during the i10 beta that we managed to leverage into a pvp mission that turned out great for a short while. an old shadow shard mission of mine had anchored in the now coop zone of the rwz allowing a mixed hero/villain team to enter. after entering the team auto broke, but didn't kick villains from the map most times. we could then reform into hero/villain teams and pvp throughout the shard caves, around the eyeballs, wisps and brutes. as it was a glowie mission with multiple glowies we could set rules for different win conditions.
it was great fun. i wish i'd had a mission map in the open shard, that would have been better. it didn't last long after being /bugged. <sniff> |
My friends and I used to play "hide and seek" in Goldeneye on the N64. One person is it, and is the only one who can attack. When "it" kills you, you're it. Lot of fun. I brought that back to my friends in COH, although we were playing tag - only "it" could use sprint and brawl. Everyone else? Nothing! It was a lot of silly fun and got a bunch of non-PVPers to use the arena.
There's another game out there where players take the role of monsters to fight other players - that could be interesting. Or they could make the player invisible/phased and mastermind controls to combat other players in a PVE-ish manner.
But, again, finding PVE ways to compete against "them other folks" would be good... making a PVP via PVE version of Siren's Call, for instance...
The developers really just need to leave PvP alone. Nothing they do is likely to entice any people who don't currently PvP to do so, and it's likely they will drive off some of the people that currently like it if they change it.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Agreed. The devs have known for years that only a small percentage of the playerbase was ever interested in PvP. If they do something with it I'm sure it will make 10 or 20 people happy but it won't affect the game for the majority of players.
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Originally Posted by Psyte
Or they could make the player invisible/phased and mastermind controls to combat other players in a PVE-ish manner.
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... see also "Gladiators."
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a.k.a. "City of Pokemon" |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... see also "Gladiators."
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I was actually thinking that having a team of normal players versus a team of Gladiator style players would be fun. If your mob gets defeated then you have to respawn.
Not quite Left4Dead or Monster-play, but hey, it could still be interesting.
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No.|
Originally Posted by firespray
The developers really just need to leave PvP alone.
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Originally Posted by firespray
Nothing they do is likely to entice any people who don't currently PvP to do so, and it's likely they will drive off some of the people that currently like it if they change it.
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Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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agree
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
No.
i think implementing a system that is understandable, implemented with player feedback, and uses logic and common sense would entice current pvpers to pvp more often. really anything other than what we do know, hence everyone suggesting a reversion to i12 since, you're right, the devs will likely not visit pvp again and a reversion would make everyone alot happier. pre i13 wasn't perfect, but atleast it was the same as pve and made alot more sense than this system does. |
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the devs apparently changed pvp for ALL of us my friend. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
0.o
Who is this "all of us" you refer to in that sentence? The majority of players don't pvp, so you're obviously not talking about the playerbase as a whole. Not convinced that working on a feature that a rather small percentage of players use will be significant to the future of the product. That said, i would like to see some changes made to pvp mechanics. Making pvp closer to pve again would be a nice change in my opinion. While i've never been a regular pvper i did like it more prior to the i13 mechanics. |
you (and many others) are prejudice against "minority" groups until it suits your purpose. there are a whole bunch of significant "minority" groups in this game that are catered to (well except for a few groups like multibuild users for example who are looking to be treated with equality with freespecs when powers are changed (me) and those looking to stack freespecs for IO swapping (you).) because doing so creates a well rounded product, and the pvp "minority" group should not be the exception. considering that pvpers must spend a significant amount of time in pve land it makes them part of the "larger" group(s) by default.
good to see that you are part of the pvp "minority" group that wants some rational changes because it suits your purpose.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
But labeling it as "For the future of the product" as the OP did is, frankly, laughable.
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Originally Posted by Optical_Illusion
pvp for the future of the product.
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Originally Posted by Positron
PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
But labeling it as "For the future of the product" as the OP did is, frankly, laughable.
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Originally Posted by Optical_Illusion
pvp for the future of the product.
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Originally Posted by Positron
PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
But labeling it as "For the future of the product" as the OP did is, frankly, laughable.
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Originally Posted by Optical_Illusion
pvp for the future of the product.
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Originally Posted by Positron
PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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laughable? the only things laughable are the trademark bandwagon responses from trademark bandwagon people like you who would rather be trademark bandwagon ignorant and do the trademark bandwagon insult optical illusion instead of actually doing some reading and objective thinking.
bill if you and your trademark bandwagon friends paid more attention and gave less trademark bandwagon attitudes then maybe you all would learn more from people like me and this game would be better.
it took you almost 2 years to understand what was going on with pvp and all it took me was reading beta patch notes. get over yourself and give me a little more respect or don't and just keep on doing the trademark bandwagon flame, insult and telling others to ignore me for not being a part of the trademark bandwagon group and then end up agreeing with me about things almost 2 years down the road when your brain actually starts to process and comprehend things.
eat more crow and less trademark bandwagon.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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And how are all those PvP adjustments in the last 5 issues been workin out for ya?
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Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
laughable? the only things laughable are the trademark bandwagon responses from trademark bandwagon people like you who would rather be trademark bandwagon ignorant and do the trademark bandwagon insult optical illusion instead of actually doing some reading and objective thinking.
bill if you and your trademark bandwagon friends paid more attention and gave less trademark bandwagon attitudes then maybe you all would learn more from people like me and this game would be better. it took you almost 2 years to understand what was going on with pvp and all it took me was reading beta patch notes. get over yourself and give me a little more respect or don't and just keep on doing the trademark bandwagon flame, insult and telling others to ignore me for not being a part of the trademark bandwagon group and then end up agreeing with me about things almost 2 years down the road when your brain actually starts to process and comprehend things. eat more crow and less trademark bandwagon. |
The problems with PvP are always the same and will always be the same - expensive build and cheap tactics. The PvE game I can play casually, cobbling together builds that aren't very strong, but look and act really cool. The PvP game requires an investment, and when it comes to my leisure time, I prefer to not be required to invest.
This isn't specific to the I13 PvP changes, to the I12 PvP rules or what have you. It's specific to PvP in an MMORPG. This is a stat-based game. You win based on powers, slotting and Inventions bonuses more than anything else. Not only is this not something I care for when fighting other people, it also shifts the actual confrontation away from the battlefield and into the spreadsheets. Every time I've fought in PvP, I've felt like a Pokemon trainer, bringing in this character I've evolved and trained before the fight and seeing how well it does.
When it comes to PvP, I'll always take games designed for it, such as UT or Battlefield. Moreover, if I had a choice, I'd always take a cooperative game above all of those, such as Alien Swarm or Left 4 Dead.