Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes & Known Issues for build 1850.201007290104.20T2
By
0verload,
Posted on: 2010-08-24 09:18 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Exactly why they should have left it alone. Best way to build a community is for people to help each other and learn together. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
One of the biggest questions in broadcast is what to do about this mission.
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| I did one yesterday with trash cans. I had to find 10 and they were spread far and wide across the entire city. Without the map this could've taken me hours, scouring through every alleyway and checking under every rock and pebble to find glowing cans. And for basically no exp. Yeah that's a fun mission. |
The trash can mission, which I've done, would no doubt take longer if you had to explore, but what better way to showcase off those gorgeous zones. *Shrug*
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's silly. Teaming is a good way to build community. Poor documentation/UI isn't. Besides, asking for help in broadcast for a 6+ year old game is as likely to get a new player flamed as it is to get them actual help.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Exactly why they should have left it alone. Best way to build a community is for people to help each other and learn together.
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In some offline and online RPGs, you have to scour and look for items that give you no visual or audio cues that they are there at all. You get a description and that's that. The trash can mission, which I've done, would no doubt take longer if you had to explore, but what better way to showcase off those gorgeous zones. *Shrug* |
As to the latter, again, if players want to explore, let them. Forcing it by making them go on a drawn out pixel hunt is misguided design. I appreciate the idea but I would bet most players don't even pay attention to the zone details as they look for the glowies because...they're looking for the glowies. It's much easier to appreciate the sights when you are doing it on your own -- on the way to a mission door, going to a trainer, chatting with friends.
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I have no doubt in my mind that it won't be that tough when it releases. Positron might put it on test like that, but I've seen far to many instances of high and low level content being toned down because people complained it was too hard.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Supposedly i19 will have your really tough content for vets. Wait a bit.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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And at that level you'll be upping the difficulty in Primal Earth so you can do it as hard as you like.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I have no doubt in my mind that it won't be that tough when it releases. Positron might put it on test like that, but I've seen far to many instances of high and low level content being toned down because people complained it was too hard.
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Also those old RPGs where you have to find item with no help and sometimes have to get an online guide to find the one hidden between a chest and a wall to continue the plot, those are badly deisgned objectives.
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It should be so hard on base that no one would want to.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
And at that level you'll be upping the difficulty in Primal Earth so you can do it as hard as you like.
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| Also those old RPGs where you have to find item with no help and sometimes have to get an online guide to find the one hidden between a chest and a wall to continue the plot, those are badly deisgned objectives. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Please no. Dying sometimes is OK. We don't have to win all the time. |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Thank you. Can we expect other Praetorian groups to get looked at in future patches?
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Resistance members having Defence, for instance, pretty much negates the entire point of the Beginner's Luck buff that was added in. Just looked at the numbers while fighting Wrencher in the tutorial; he has 10% defence, taking my first-level accuracy from 90 down to almost baseline, 80. If the Syndicate hit too hard, wouldn't the same philosophy suggest that the Resistance avoid too much damage? |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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You don't run into Spectrals under level 10. I'm not sure you run into them under level 15, either.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Nowhere near as bad as CoT Spectral Lts.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It should be so hard on base that no one would want to.
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They start at 14. But pre-10 you also have Madness Mages which mez, have Fortitude (so they hit more and are harder to hit), and psi damage which almost no one can do much about at pre-10.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
You don't run into Spectrals under level 10. I'm not sure you run into them under level 15, either.
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| Where did you learn game design, anyway, that you can possibly think this is even remotely good design? Difficulty sliders exist for people like you. Use them, for crying out loud! |
Risk/Reward. If Incarnates are supposed to be the ultimate rewards, should they not come from difficult content?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Are you freaking kidding me?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Exactly why they should have left it alone. Best way to build a community is for people to help each other and learn together.
In some offline and online RPGs, you have to scour and look for items that give you no visual or audio cues that they are there at all. You get a description and that's that. The trash can mission, which I've done, would no doubt take longer if you had to explore, but what better way to showcase off those gorgeous zones. *Shrug* |
Angry rants in broadcast don't help build a community and running aimlesly around the zone for over an hour is not fun.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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It takes someone an hour to find the flowers that are 5 yards away? |
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Are you freaking kidding me?
Angry rants in broadcast don't help build a community and running aimlesly around the zone for over an hour is not fun. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I'm guessing you think the Barracuda and Lord Recluse Strike Forces are laughably easy, and anyone that fails the Imperious Task Force should just quit playing. Am I far off the mark? |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
In many MMOs, the best rewards come from the hardest content.
Risk/Reward. If Incarnates are supposed to be the ultimate rewards, should they not come from difficult content? |
The thing I love the most about this game is that they don't follow the design philosophy of "many MMOs". They follow the philosophy of "the game should be fun". Beating your head against unbeatable content because you have the wrong combination of powers or don't know the perfect, pre-designed tactic for tackling it, is not fun for me, and I suspect it's not fun for most of this game's players.
If you're looking for difficult content with great rewards locked behind it accessible only to the elite few capable of completing it, this game will probably forever disappoint you. But it pleases many other people, and is one of the things that sets this game apart from its competitors.
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grav/ss lieutenants are a nuisance...
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
See, with the exception of the bosses and key enemies I found Syndicate notably easier than many of the other enemy groups. That's why I'm sort of in "wha huh?" mode to them getting toned down.
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No not at all. I've failed the ITF more than once. I don't much anymore, but I did when I started. The couple of times I've done the LRSF, I've won, but I didn't think they were easy. I think that's a good TF.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I'm guessing you think the Barracuda and Lord Recluse Strike Forces are laughably easy, and anyone that fails the Imperious Task Force should just quit playing. Am I far off the mark?
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I don't mind dying and I don't mind failing. I'm not some UBER player. I'm probably average at best.
The difference is that I don't mind being challenged. I don't /ragequit when the game throws something at me that I can't handle instantly. I don't assume that the content is the problem. I try. I improve. I practice until I get better.
You know that thing they teach you in kindergarten.
TRUE STORY: My 5 year old was playing this evening in Atlas with a blaster he created. He got mauled by a spawn he had no business running into. He giggled. He ported to hospital and went back out there. He didn't complain or say it wasn't fair. He just got back into it and tried again.
That's what I'm talking about. Dying sometime, even often, is only a problem if there is no room to improve.
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| The thing I love the most about this game is that they don't follow the design philosophy of "many MMOs". They follow the philosophy of "the game should be fun". Beating your head against unbeatable content because you have the wrong combination of powers or don't know the perfect, pre-designed tactic for tackling it, is not fun for me, and I suspect it's not fun for most of this game's players. |
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| If you're looking for difficult content with great rewards locked behind it accessible only to the elite few capable of completing it, this game will probably forever disappoint you. But it pleases many other people, and is one of the things that sets this game apart from its competitors. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Erm...hasn't the reverse happened?
Didn't the ITF get BUFFED thanks to people on test saying that the end boss was laughably easy (He didn't have his nictus support with him in the original test version IIRC), they added in the nictus Kheldian forms boss ambush in the first map after it went live as well IIRC. They also recently made it so you could nolonger single pull the 4 Patrons in the STF, thus increasing the difficulty in general.
Seriously though Geko, if you want that kind of play, head over to WoW, they have the raid style bosses you want and the uber-elite 'this has to be uber-tough otherwise its not worth it' attitude to go with it.
I'm sorry but the Destroyer bosses are just that tad overpowered...there is a difference between 'challenge' where there is a struggle to survive and "oh my minions get oneshotted by his AoE footstomp meaning I lose bodyguard mode and he proceeds to wtfpwn my tiny health before I can even resummon minions".
Seriously though why the hell haven't they put in the difficulty selectors, that way the uber-elite "I'm so hardcore!" people like yourself can crank up the difficulty and the rest of us can either tone it done when say soloing a controller or crank it up when on a Brute/Tank/Scrapper.
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I've gone through Praetoria myself. Once on live, four times (one for each track) on Beta. Late Beta, so the gameplay was more-or-less the same for both. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It's not unbeatable. Plenty of people beat Praetoria just as it was. Was there some magical formula? No. They just were a bit more careful and used a bit of skill.
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Key missions where it took five or more defeats to get through because of the set up of the mission or the enemies, however, were not a fun part of those playthroughs. Ambushes need to be examined or enemy capabilities need to be examined. Or both.
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Could be. Don't recall.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Erm...hasn't the reverse happened?
Didn't the ITF get BUFFED thanks to people on test saying that the end boss was laughably easy (He didn't have his nictus support with him in the original test version IIRC), they added in the nictus Kheldian forms boss ambush in the first map after it went live as well IIRC. They also recently made it so you could nolonger single pull the 4 Patrons in the STF, thus increasing the difficulty in general. |
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| Seriously though Geko, if you want that kind of play, head over to WoW, they have the raid style bosses you want and the uber-elite 'this has to be uber-tough otherwise its not worth it' attitude to go with it. |
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| I'm sorry but the Destroyer bosses are just that tad overpowered...there is a difference between 'challenge' where there is a struggle to survive and "oh my minions get oneshotted by his AoE footstomp meaning I lose bodyguard mode and he proceeds to wtfpwn my tiny health before I can even resummon minions". |
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| Seriously though why the hell haven't they put in the difficulty selectors, that way the uber-elite "I'm so hardcore!" people like yourself can crank up the difficulty and the rest of us can either tone it done when say soloing a controller or crank it up when on a Brute/Tank/Scrapper. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
So, I guess now everytime theres a patch im going to get this: failed to rename C:\Program Files (x86)\City of Heroes\cityofheroes.exe to C:\Program Files (x86)\City of Heroes\cityofheroes.old ????? Everything was fine till today I guess, I wasn't on till now 7:00 pm and then...Bing...Windows 7 says: NO!
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Most likely ambushes and enemy placement. Some of the tactical options you could use get limited due to this. Enemy groups have varying advantages. While they are a bit melee unfriendly others are designed to shrug off controls. Might need a smidge of fine tuning but I think Primal Earth groups, notably Hellions and Skulls, need a small buff.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Ambushes need to be examined or enemy capabilities need to be examined. Or both.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
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*facepalm* Sad this has to be said. |
Hey I like it....back in beta I was lost on where the glowies were for not only that mission but the "hack cameras" mission that the Mr. Flores (?) gives you. I asked the teammate I was with at the time how he knew where to go and he mentioned that...weird that "missionobjective" isn't on by default....
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It takes someone an hour to find the flowers that are 5 yards away?
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My first time getting that mission, there were 2 bushes glowing (could at least hear the glowing) and only one counted for the mission. The other glowies that I finally got were a good 50-100 yards or more away (don't remember really)....so, again, yes...I don't see what the harm is...just more text...not like anyone reads the text anyways >_>
I still say just have 'missionobjective' on as default...
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
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So when are Seers and Destroyers getting downgraded from ridiculous to merely normal?|
Originally Posted by Avatea
Powers
Critters
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Stacking Psi with sonic (and tons of KB/KD) is just an exercise in futility.
I've heard that most people playing Controllers and Doms won't even do missions that have Destroyers in them because they are so broken.
This also doesn't change the fact that 'staggered' difficulty really means 75% of all mobs you will face will be +1 to you and +2 to your side kick.
I'm very, very frustrated that these sort of things are still going on over a year. They are making duoing with my friend an exercise in frustration and multiple trips to a hospitals at +0x0.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Dying sometimes is not the issue. Why must folks with your argument take everything to extremes? People say "we think some of the mobs are too strong" and you immediately jump to "you want to never die." The two statements are not even close to the same thing.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Could be. Don't recall.
I tested Praetoria on a Psi Blaster. Got beat down PLENTY of times. I'm not uber-elite. I'm decent. I JUST DON'T MIND DYING SOMETIMES. I don't see why that's so hard. You all appear to believe that if you get defeated that it's the game's problem. Why isn't it your problem? |
I like a good challenge. But some of the enemies in Praetoria are not just a "good challenge," they're downright brutal. What I personally do not find fun is having to approach every single spawn like it's the end boss of the mission. That gets tedious after a while. I want my characters to occasionally feel moderately strong, y'know?
Again, you are confusing people getting frustrated with people wanting easy mode. I doubt anyone posting in this thread wants the game to be a snooze fest. You speak of strategy, but for some AT's certain GR enemies are basically a case of "kill as much as you can, die, come back, repeat". I'm sorry, but that kind of strategy isn't fun.
Steel Shaman, I think you hit the nail squarely on it's head there. Good post!! 
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I think I fall somewhere's in between you and EvilGeko, but I probably favor his argument slightly. My reason is simple. I have managed to get through the GR content in Praetoria on a controller. Decided to try out a Electric Control/Storm Controller and see where it would go. I knew in advance that the "control" aspect would help, but to be honest, the lack of damage has been a major hindrance and couple that with a high end burn. That makes things darn hard. Especially when it comes to multiple ambushes. Still though, I have only found it "too difficult" on two occasions (my definition being I have to visit the hospital 3 times or more in a single mission). This leads me to believe that both of you have gone to extremes in your arguments and I would ask you to both dial it down. |
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Dying sometimes is not the issue. Why must folks with your argument take everything to extremes? People say "we think some of the mobs are too strong" and you immediately jump to "you want to never die." The two statements are not even close to the same thing.
I like a good challenge. But some of the enemies in Praetoria are not just a "good challenge," they're downright brutal. What I personally do not find fun is having to approach every single spawn like it's the end boss of the mission. That gets tedious after a while. I want my characters to occasionally feel moderately strong, y'know? Again, you are confusing people getting frustrated with people wanting easy mode. I doubt anyone posting in this thread wants the game to be a snooze fest. You speak of strategy, but for some AT's certain GR enemies are basically a case of "kill as much as you can, die, come back, repeat". I'm sorry, but that kind of strategy isn't fun. |
I will say though, that in my experience with the teams I have played on, most times people die once or twice and start complaining the mission/SF/TF was designed to be too hard. Very seldom do people want to take into account the "Luck" factor. My definition of this is when the dice is rolled, the numbers are crunched, and you lose instead of the enemies. I have also noticed that people definition of "I want my characters to occasionally feel moderately strong, y'know?" to be very different. Was Superman a Superhero because he could beat up common street thugs or was he Super because he could take on enemies as powerful or more so than himself and still win?
To finish this off, I'll go back to an earlier statement though, both of you have decided to take your arguments to the extremes and it might be time for you to both dial it back some.
No. More like, let's screw the vets who complain that everything is too hard to do instead of trying to get better.
The mission tells you to pick flowers. In many games, you would just have to...you know...walk over and try to pick the flowers. Here, they glow and make noise and on top of that they tell you exactly how to get to them. Why not just have the game finish the mission for your?
What's so bad about figuring things out for yourself once in awhile. Or *gasp* maybe working with others who have figured it out. Building some community at the same time.
I think balancing the consistency of the difficulty is a good thing. And there's still plenty of difficulty left in GR even with this one tweak.