Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes & Known Issues for build 1850.201007290104.20T2
By
0verload,
Posted on: 2010-08-24 09:18 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
Well Dispari, I just can't find the desire to argue your dozen reasons I am wrong (funny, I only saw two though). It seems that you are the type that can't see other peoples side of an argument and must always be right. So I am done trying to help you see a broader aspect of this debate.
And thank you for the back-up Seth. Word (and a fresh view) from a new player is always welcome.
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You keep saying that, even though I just explained that toning down the difficulty but still allowing you to up it with the notoriety system would please BOTH of us. I'm not sure how "only you are happy" changing to "everyone is happy" means I can't see your side of the argument.|
Originally Posted by GMan3
It seems that you are the type that can't see other peoples side of an argument and must always be right.
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Although the fact that you can't understand what I'm saying and just dismiss me instead of trying to refute my argument sort of indicates you can't see my side.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If you think the game is too easy, what's stopping you from upping the difficulty (other than the fact that there's no NPC in Praetoria at the moment, which is unintentional)?|
Originally Posted by Seth Fist
I have to agree with GMan3 here Dispari (and Captain Fabulous). I started playing around last Christmas (2009) and I was surprised at how easy the game was. That actually put me in a funk for a while toward this game. Now we get a new starting area with some real challenge and people like you want to Nerf it. I'm sorry, but that is lame.
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A player who finds the game too hard can only go to -1.
A player who finds the game too easy can go all the way up to x8 as many enemies, and +4 levels of difficulty.
It's far easier to set the base difficulty very low, and allow players to adjust upward when and how they are ready for it. It is not easy to make the game extremely difficult and expect people to be able to play it and enjoy it.
If I think the game is too hard (such as when you're faced with 8 EBs at the same time, ala DeVore arc), there's not a lot I can do. If you think the game is too easy, there is a huge system available to you to make it up to 32x more difficult and challenging.
If you find the new "nerfed" Praetoria too easy, +1 it. If that's not enough, +2 it. Then add more people. I can guarantee you, somewhere between +0/x1 and +4/x8 you will find a degree of difficulty that is suitable for your level 7 Blaster.
So why exactly are you against making the game more accessible to new players if you can still play the game on hard mode if you choose? Do you not think that other people would like to play on a different difficulty than you? Are you so selfish that you want the game to be suited to you, and not suited to everyone? As GMan said, "Your argument is flawed because YOU don't like something and expect that EVERY new player will feel the same way." Do you believe every new player will want to play at this high difficulty that you're enjoying? Because if it's toned down, everyone can be happy. Including you. You can still play hard mode, but others can play the easy mode. You literally lose nothing. But others gain something. Your way means you and people who like hard stuff are happy. My way means everyone is happy. So what's the problem? Please explain why this is unacceptable. Because I really want to hear it.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I agree with you completely (though i'm not quitting....). Was on a team tonite, all experienced players, and we were getting slaughtered despite moving at a snails pace and pulling.|
Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
One of the things you'll notice when you examine Primal Earth critters that exist over large level ranges, like Longbow, Arachnos, and CoT, is that the low-level versions are significantly easier to deal with than the higher ones. Longbow won't start tossing out -resistance grenades till the 40s. CoT Ruin Mages and Spectral Lord LTs don't show up till your 20s and Earth Thorn Casters your 30s. Most critters groups on Primal Earth are pretty tame in the 1-20 range (with a few notable exceptions like Wyvern and Vahziloks). The problem with the critters in Praetoria is they are built like they should be level 40+ by the nature of the extreme damage and multiple stacking buffs and debuffs.
I again had another few hours of play last night that was completely destroyed by repeated team wipes by Clockwork. To the point where people just kept quitting faster than I could invite them. There is no legitimate reason why it needs to be like this. It's not fun, it's not challenging, it's just frustrating. Cause you're pulling out every trick you know, using strategy, having a well-balanced team, and YOU'RE STILL GETTING WIPED. Sorry, but it's not my idea of fun. I'll repeat what I said before -- an average PUG should easily be able to run thru even-level content with a minimal amount of death. If they can't something is wrong. I've played thru all 4 of the major arcs in Praetoria and I'm done. Sub expires soon and that'll be the end of it. Maybe if things get toned down in the future I'll come back, but I'm not gonna pay for something I don't enjoy playing, and honestly it's too little, too late, as the damage has already been done (first impressions and all that junk). And I certainly can't recommend the expansion to anyone I know. There was so much potential here that's completely marred by poor design choices that just don't make any sense. It also doesn't help that the devs have been completely silent on the issue (and pretty much every other issue that's come up). Not a great way to foster good relations with your playerbase. Meh, whatever, I'm done. I've expended way too much negative energy on this already. I and others have said what we needed to say, take it or leave it. After 3 months in beta with dozens of posts repeatedly saying the same things it's clear no one is listening (or caring, or bothering to explain why things are the way they are), so there's no point in beating the dead horse any longer. |
If some people like it this hard, that's fine, but there should be a difficulty slider that can provide this kind of challenge for those that like it, and an easier game for those that don't enjoy going to the hospital or resting after every group of enemies. I'd love to hear the dev explanation for why they simply did away with the difficulty slider for this expansion, because I can't think of any logical reason for doing so.
Playing solo I don't have much of a problem, but on large teams it gets flat out ridiculous, especially on melee toons. The art team gets all A's on this expansion, but whoever decided difficulty level and enemy stats gets F's. If this is the future direction of this game, where super heroes are struggling to defeat a few minions, then I'll be done with it also. I'd love to hear the devs address this issue.
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poor old macdonald, lol
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Originally Posted by Avatea
Patch Notes for build 1850.201007290104.20T2
COMBINED Mission Architect
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Agreed. The seers are just laughable, if the massive kb isn't enough, they floor your recharge on top of it.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
[/LIST] [/LIST]So when are Seers and Destroyers getting downgraded from ridiculous to merely normal?
Stacking Psi with sonic (and tons of KB/KD) is just an exercise in futility. |
Seers are the hardest group I fought in Praetoria. On a freshly DOed Elec/Thorn Dom, even permaholding one minion per spawn (33% of each group), they killed me about 7 times in one single mission. It was completely ludicrous how badly they were killing me. Just +0 regular minions.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
I'm still waiting to be bombarded with the rush of new players...
I've seen maybe, 3 in game with no vet badges and 3 on the boards asking questions... I was really, really hoping GR would give us a large boost in popularity. I'm still loving it all the same, just wish they'd spent something on advertising. |
There's advertising in comics, on the ATI driver page, various webpages, a deal with Razor, steam, ... what more do you want?
There's loads of returning players and really more than 3 new players. The average amount of players online on the Union server easily tripled overnight with the release of GR.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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I have to agree with this 110%. Not that it's flawed, but that the game's too hard for new players.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
My incredibly flawed argument is that people who are playing this game for the first time are forced to run through the hardest content? And that's their first experience with the game. If the first time you play a game you lose repeatedly tons of times, and are forced to overcome the really difficult stuff before you're allowed to play the regular stuff, that's not very fun. And as a brand new player you may not even know that there are easier options out there. Maybe you just think it gets harder from that point on.
But I'm not too heartbroken since you seem to be handing out tickets of no-reputation left and right anyway. |
My wife, who's been playing for a few years, but only without me or a friend once in a great while, was forced to solo single player 2 EBs as a Blaster... at level 14. GR still has this "ATs start to matter" with DOs thing, so at level 12 Blasters and Controllers get a lot squishier it seems. She ended up having to fill up on purples, pull the first EB, kill him, leave, fill up on purples, come back, then get the second one.
If I were a new player, I would have been incredibly frustrated. You can't ask for help. You can't drop it because it's the last mission of the arc. The only solution is to go level once or twice and come back. Let's face it, any game where "out level it then come back" is the answer is total cheese.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Until GR, Union hasn't seen anything other than "light load" since CoH launch. GR launch day saw Union go red on the server list and Defiant amber and both have been amber regularly since. There has been a massive influx of players with GR, both returnees and newbies.
If the majority of the vets (including me) are complaining about the overall strength of the opposition in Praetoria, it has to be really bad for new players. I think the few players that think the current settings are fine and we should all just deal with it really should take into account that a lot of us are casual gamers and those new to the game are just going to go play something else after hitting a brick wall in more than one mission.
None of us want to take away the current challenge, just add an option to allow the casual players a chance.
This game already has direct competition and more is around the corner. Should the devs really be making life so hard for (most) new players that they just think "This is crap, I'll go check out the other super mmo's."? And by new players, I mean new with GR.
I'm guessing that Union may well be back to "light load" about one month after GR launch though I hope that wont be the case.
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This is it. A lot of people are playing now, but the real test will be in a few weeks when the free month is over and people have to decide if it's something worth paying for.
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Originally Posted by 0verload
I'm guessing that Union may well be back to "light load" about one month after GR launch though I hope that wont be the case.
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Best solution of the thread: Put in a difficulty slider. Those who want it hard can play at the base and up. Those who want it toned down can do so.
Problem solved. I can't see how ANYONE can be logically against more options.
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I have a feeling it's quite intentional due to a combination of trying to restructure the lowbie game, curbing power leveling, and data mining. The question is whether or not it's working the way it should. Even as someone who feels that a level of challenge is needed so that people learn their characters and keeps the game fresh, I feel that parts could bear looking at. The aforementioned two EBs and really the sheer concept of forcing alignment shifts to be solo isn't well thought out. Lowbie Seers are similar to I1 groups in that they break a design rule that's been getting discussed in some of the AE threads--have proportionally 3 types of minions, 2 LTs, 1 boss so that any one type of debuff isn't as overwhelming.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
upping the difficulty (other than the fact that there's no NPC in Praetoria at the moment, which is unintentional)
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It's not. There's a marker on the map for the difficulty NPC, but there isn't one there. The NPC is missing, but the map clearly shows they intended to place one.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
I have a feeling it's quite intentional due to
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Which is why I consider the difficulty level issue not something needing to be bickered about.
A. We know the NPC models are in Praetoria, just not turned on.
B. Lots of never before tried scenarios are being tested and the new tech that goes with.
C. Knowing they'd need a good few weeks after launch of actual data to see what needs tweaking and what doesn't.
D. The changes to some mobs already patched based on our feedback.
All this leads me to believe that it's in the best interest of the game to not have sliders available at 1st. Remember, when CoH launched they didn't even exist. It was created down the line once the spawns and everything had been balanced, it was then later modified to accomadate IO's.
So I expect we'll be able to ramp up or tone down to our hearts content in a few weeks. Until then I'm enjoying the danger.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Bravo to that MaestroMavius!
Just one question though, where are the Difficulty NPC's icon on the map. Dispari says they are shown on the map and so I'm thinking "Cool, where are they (cause I don't remember seeing them)?" So I went and checked each of the three above ground zones as well as each of the three below ground zones and . . . nothing. I found a lot of merit vendors as well as regular vendors, I found the Leveling NPC, and all my contact NPC's, yea they all showed up on the map, but no Icon for the Difficulty NPC.
I am still not sure the difficulty was not set high in Praetoria on purpose and the Difficulty NPC left out on purpose. Though I will admit I could be wrong, I am not the Dev's after all. But for arguments sake, if it was an accident that the NPC was left out, then where is the Icon that Dispari speaks of?
They appeared during Beta briefly but then vanished again. So we know the markers are there, they just aren't present in game currently.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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Not really definitive, but just the same not worth arguing about. I guess we are in wait and see mode. Thanks for the info by the way.
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
They appeared during Beta briefly but then vanished again. So we know the markers are there, they just aren't present in game currently.
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I don't consider myself a power gamer by any stretch (2-3 mishes a day), but I'm not having the difficulty issues others seem to be. Possibly because I hover out of melee range and debuff/hold/immob (elec/rad 'troller). I've actually been hoping for a mechanism that'll allow the bosses into the mix.
Rich
Edit: I've also noted the lack of flying stunners in Praetoria--possibly something the devs may wanna add here and there to keep hover from being a "I win" button
Rich(@Naq)
--who's NO LONGER waiting for the Elec 'Troller
Bunches of good and evil scattered across all servers--
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Ive had this since i17 and the new graphics launched.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Since the patch today I am having a new graphics issues that causes this giant boxing/digitalizing of the edges of objects.
I think, in some way, it is tied to Ambient Occlusion, since I noticed it decreases considerably when I turn down Ambient Occlusion, but it doesn't go away entirely. This issue popped up today, after this morning's patch.  |
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I believe the difficulty and mission types are too high for new people. Yes for veteran players its a lot better for us, we now the powers, we know tactics, have vet powers, can email money , and more.
If you don't think I'm right answer this question have you ever quit any game because it was too hard before. Well I have, if I had a trail pc game or a game you play in a web browser and it was too hard or had other problems where it became frustrating to play then I would just quit.
This is even more so with kids, most will skip any tutorial or any help and go right to playing. My 15 year old nephew comes over every now and then we tried to get him to play coh he didn't care about learning just wanted to play, and wouldn't listen to us, so he just quit and went onto another game. Same thing with Xbox games he wont play any game that gets too hard at first and these are some great games.
You may feel and say so what we don't need these type of players and kids, but in fact the game needs any players.
This game has gotten very complex even for veterans and I just don't want to see it loose new or old platers due to this.
Freedom Server - Main = Lil Bug & way too many alts to list
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If you're using an ATI card, that can be caused by having Ambient Occlusion and FSAA both enabled.
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Originally Posted by Ozmosis
Ive had this since i17 and the new graphics launched.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Which should be fixed by installing the new 10.8 catalyst drivers.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If you're using an ATI card, that can be caused by having Ambient Occlusion and FSAA both enabled.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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That looks like an issue with transparency AA (Nvidia) or adaptive AA (ATI). Try turning it off, see if that helps.
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Originally Posted by Ozmosis
Ive had this since i17 and the new graphics launched.
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One, if you haven't met anyone who doesn't like the difficulty in Praetoria yet you have your eyes and ears covered. There are a lot of threads complaining about the difficulty, a lot of people who complain about the enemies in Praetoria, and a lot of people who are worried they're too strong. Heck there are like half a dozen in this thread alone that are worried about how hard the stuff in Praetoria is. It was an issue all through beta, is still an issue, and still the thing I hear about most in my global channels is how group x is too hard.
And two, no, I don't want things to change because I want things to be a certain way for selfish gain. I want the game to be easier for new players, and then you can have your ability to ramp up the difficulty if you so chose with the difficulty settings. EVERYONE wins. I'm not enforcing my will on you, I'm adding more options to the game. If you think that me changing the game to suit my needs and ignoring everyone else, you're wrong.