Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes & Known Issues for build 1850.201007290104.20T2

I really have to say you're in the minority here. Without even saying "this isn't other RPGs," the ones that even use the "you figure it out" mechanic all have guides and plug-ins to make it easier.

If you've played WoW for more than 20 minutes, you'd know everyone runs a helper tool that installs an arrow in your UI to help you know where to go. Kind of like the one CoH has, because if you get a mission that says "Talk to this person" and you don't even know what ZONE they're in, much less where in that zone, that does not equal fun gameplay to basically anyone.

What you're basically saying is that we should force absolutely pointless fluff for no reason whatsoever. You think it's preferable to be as vague as possible with missions and objectives because you think people would enjoy wandering aimlessly or having to look up guides, or ask people for the solution.

Nobody likes this. Nobody likes the pointless fluff of having to find a hidden glowie; that's why we installed the glowie-finder in missions. Nobody likes having to search for and memorize the locations of stores; that's why they were added to the minimap, that's why they're added to zones like Hollows, that's why CoV, new zones (RWZ), and Praetoria have adopted an "all stores here" approach. Nobody likes having to walk all the way across IP for no reason; that's why CoV has less zone-switching, that's why we have mission teleporters, that's why Sprint and Fly just got buffed.

Nobody likes this completely unnecessary fluff you're advocating. Nobody wants to wander aimlessly trying to find objects that could literally be anywhere. If someone wants to look at the city, they can look at the city. "Guess you get to look at the city since you'll be spending an hour seeking out trash cans in alleyways" is not a selling point to anybody.

Fluff is only a waste of time. The longer you spend walking to missions, trying to find objects, or anything that involves "not accomplishing anything" the less fun you have, and the less you want to play. The more time someone spends playing a game where they're not doing anything, the more likely it is they're going to find another game to play.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I've been on a team that wiped SEVEN times in the same room because of more than four Blast Masters in a spawn of Destroyers as well as two bosses.

Now, granted this was while we were still in Beta, but that mission's going to be just as hard with a full team on live simply because of the Burn spam from the BM's. You're getting knocked off your feet every few seconds from one of their M-80's, or you're getting firebombed, both while trying to get your team to ignore the boss and kill the minions first and they aren't listening because they THINK they know better after six years of playing...

Now, word's gotten around a bit to 'kill any and all Blast Masters ASAP' but they're still a minion-level major pain in the ***.

This. I couldn't have said it better myself. When teammates are dying in nearly every spawn, on a full well-rounded team of 8, something is wrong. Sure, we can pull, and we can use corners, we can keep running back from the hospital with a tray full of lucks, but after awhile it's just not fun. Especially when an ambush shows up behind us and we team wipe. Or a single pull aggros 3 groups that are right next to each other. There is no amount of strategy that will prevent this. It's programmed death each and every time. I've seen a single boss take out all 4 of my demons in less than 10 seconds. Really??? I'm sorry, that's retarded. I'd like to at least have a fighting chance to take out a boss. I mean seriously, are we now supposed to be weaker than common generic bosses? That makes NO sense.

Praetorian critters have abilities equivalent to level 41-50 critters in Primal Earth. For levels 1-20. This just isn't right. And let's not forget this game is supposed to be all about casual play. Log in, join a PUG, and have a good time. If the average, not particularly well-balanced PUG is getting slaughtered over and over again on base difficulty something is wrong. It's as simple as that.

Occasional death is fine. Constant repeated death isn't.

Y'know what tho, I had an easier time soloing an Electric Controller than I did a KM Stalker. The troller took a lot longer to kill things, but was never in any danger of dying, even from ambushes. The stalker on the other hand was toast every time.

The other part about soloing is that you won't run into any of the bosses, which are nearly all horribly overpowered and will easily take you out in 2 hits (about 3 seconds). Join a duo or trio where bosses show up and then see how well your troller fares.

Your argument will warrant some credibility when you have the same situation on live as you did on beta. I won't argue with anyone that knows "that mission's going to be just as hard with a full team on live simply because of the Burn spam from the BM's", yet has not even tried to replicate it. So please post back when you do and tell us how YOU did. Thanks.

I will agree with you though. Those Blast Masters SUCK!!!! That's probably why I like fighting them.

I feel it's worth noting that there are a number of factors that lend to you having an easy time with that Controller you mentioned, such as,

1) You are a veteran player. You've been around for at least three years. You no doubt know the ins and outs and know how to do things like pick good powers, form meaningful attack chains, leverage inspirations, and no doubt pull. Which leads me to,

2) While it's entirely possible you didn't, it's also fairly likely that you played using vet reward powers, adding to your arsenal and allowing you to do more damage more often than a new player. This is ESPECIALLY an advantage if you play an AT that has low damage or few attacks to begin with, because,

3) AT damage modifiers aren't in full swing until past 20, so at the low levels (especially the exceptionally low levels), everyone is doing the same damage. That means while at 50 your Controller may be doing 55% damage while a Blaster is doing 112.5%, at level 1 you're both doing 100%. Add to that the fact that your Controller also mezzes with each attack, AND gets containment so does 200% damage, means your Controller is actually doing pretty darn well below 20.

As all ATs run around doing the same damage below 20, the advantages for each AT and soloing are almost the opposite of what they usually are. For instance, the ATs that probably have the EASIEST time soloing low levels would be Controllers, Dominators, Brutes (Fury allows them to run around doing 250%+ damage), and some forms of Defenders. The ATs that probably have the HARDEST time soloing would be the ones that only have damage going for them to begin with and have nothing to back it up when they're doing the same damage as everyone else; ATs like Blasters and Stalkers likely suffer the most. And because of this,

4) You picked an awesome AT for soloing low level content. As a Controller, out of the box, you have the ability to reduce 33% to 100% of all incoming damage just by taking your hold at level 1. Most spawns set for one have 2-3 units, of which you can always just hold one and immediately reduce 33% to 50% incoming damage. At levels where nobody else, even Tankers, are going to have even basic shields, and HP levels are all very close, you're reducing damage far more than everyone else is. Add to this the fact that you also debuff and you're dropping incoming damage way more than anybody else. But it's not just the AT,

5) You picked an awesome primary set for soloing. Through beta we mostly complained about Elec being poor for teaming situations. But one thing it is really good at (and may be the reason the devs didn't want to change it) is soloing. You have a very potent pulsing AoE sleep which is available to you extremely early, which as I mentioned above can equate to pretty much 100% mitigation for every spawn. Add to this your ability to drain endurance while enemies are asleep and no enemies will ever really have to attack you. You can always get the drop with hold, knockdown, sleep, and end drain, and never fight anything. Most of this even occurs by level 8.

If you really want the full Praetorian experience, try soloing a Blaster or Stalker without using any vet powers through Praetoria. You'll find that the enemies actually do a ton of damage (Resistance, Clockwork, Seers), and are capable of keeping you mezzed and knocked down when you don't want them to. And that when you can't simply hold the numerous bosses (even scaled to lieutenants) that use Super Strength powers, they can kill you in just a couple attacks.

Your argument will warrant some credibility when you have taken the time to level more than just a Controller through Praetoria. I won't argue that Controllers, especially Elec ones, will have a fairly easy time breezing through the missions. I personally soloed over half the ATs with various different powersets and builds, and found many of the gangs significantly difficult. You should try it. So please post back when you do and tell us how YOU did. Thanks.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Wow, a bunch was said there and if I had ANY experience with a controller (or a dominator), you might be right. Unfortunately, I don't and have almost no idea what you are talking about with "pulse sleep" and such. As for pulls . . . controllers have proven extremely inept at that (well, mine has anyways). Now for the attack chains, yes I am learning them and at level 18 they are just starting to be effective.

The Vet powers are good, yes and my endurance buffing pet has sped things up a little (i think). The Vet attack powers have proven helpful . . . when they hit, which seems to be about half the time or less, but that may just be my perception. Being able to fly at level 6 has proven to be the best bonus of being a long term Vet but, only because I could get to missions faster.

As for credibility, my scrapper, stalker, and blaster have done pretty good. The stalker did the best as a matter of fact, though not being able to get into hide during rapid ambushes proved to make things interesting. I am personally finding the controller to be having the hardest time. I have started a DP/rad defender too, but not played it much yet. AND my argument still stands, when they have the same problem on live as they did on beta, then get back with me.

Btw Dispari, you are one of the better people to debate with in these forums, but my last post was NOT sent to you. It was very obviously directed at one specific person (as opposed to the other posts in this thread that are just as obviously open arguments). Thanks for butting in though and letting me further go into my experience so far. Sorry for the lack of better detail, but I am tired now and have grown bored of this argument.

Overall though, I am not sure how much overpowered the enemies in Praetoria are. I really think the Devs came up with a different "style" of playing than we are used too and this has proven difficult for some to adapt too. Even so, I still do not like the Blast Masters nor the Pyrokineticists. But then again, that IS what is making them so fun to kill.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said "you want to never die." You said that. I offered a statement "Dying sometimes is OK." If you agree with that good. But don't try to strawman me, because I'm not arguing against something I didn't say.

These mobs are new and we don't instantly, immediately know the best way to deal with them. Why is that bad?

These mobs appear to be able to deal with the same boring steamrolling that many people use to get through this game. Why is that bad?

These mobs actually may be harder in a full group. Soloers and small teams might have a better chance. I can see why people don't like that one, but isn't it time for some variety?

I disagree. I've played this content with a mezzer (a dom), meleers (brutes/scrappers), and a blaster. It's difficult. It requires being more careful than some enemies groups hero/villain side (not all). You will die if you're not careful and sometimes when you are. I see none of that as bad.

So you say you don't mind dying and you don't want easy mode. So how hard should it be? How often should an average player expect to be defeated on the way to 20? Is there no space for needing to improve to do better?

Done with a Psi/Fire Blaster. Died plenty. Had a great time. Improved as a player. That's saying something after six years.

In the post I responded to, you said that it looked like people who have an issue with the mob difficulty think it's the game's problem if we get defeated. I took that to mean "you never want to die." If that isn't what you intended, my apologies.

I personally have found the level of care required for some of the Praetorian mobs (most notably the Destroyers) to be very annoying. That is why I view it as bad. It's highly subjective I know, but that's how I feel. Variety and challenge in and of themselves I view as a good thing. I just think the challenge level of the mobs in Praetoria at base is tuned just a little too high.


It's difficult for me to state what the average player should be experiencing. All I can really say is what I personally find fun or not fun. For me, one or two deaths a mission is actually tolerable. If it goes beyond that I start to get annoyed. I also start to get annoyed if it becomes obvious the deck is stacked against me in a manner that I regard as unfair, as is the case with some of the ambushes. Seer 0001 was an excellent example of what I mean by that and the Devs fixed her encounter.

As an aside, I played a Dom through a few missions in Nova Praetoria last night to test these changes. I found the Syndicate to be noticeably easier, but to still require some thought to take out. I couldn't just let them get in melee on me or they would cause some serious damage given my low health pool. That made them feel just about right. They were still obviously dangerous, but I didn't feel like I was going to need to run from 3 minions either unless I did something stupid.

The funny thing is I haven't been arguing for the Devs to nerf the mobs directly. All I've asked for in the other threads where I've discussed this is to give us the difficulty slider in Praetoria. Apparently their data mining showed that more than just that was needed.

I know it wasn't directed at me, but you pretty much asserted that your one experience with one Controller means nothing in Praetoria is difficult so the experiences of other posters are completely irrelevant. Which I found insulting and had to comment.

Having leveled a Dominator twice, a Mastermind, two Scrappers, a Stalker, a Blaster, a Controller, a Corruptor, and a Brute in Praetoria I found that the Scrappers had a hard time, the Mastermind had a hard time (ninjas), the Blaster had a hard time unless I kited CONSTANTLY, the Corruptor had a hard time, and the Stalker (while easier than most of them solo) had a REALLY hard time in teams (where everything has AoEs and Tactics). I found the absolute hardest gangs to be Seers, then Clockwork (-regen and fire and Super Strength), then Resistance (especially for anyone who has to suffer their high damage energy punches). Destroyers aren't as hard as they were in beta, and Syndicate just got toned down, and I never found Ghouls to be a problem.

And trying to level numerous toons without using vet powers or picking weaker sets like ninjas proved to give me a rather high number of deaths. That is MY experience. The gangs in Praetoria are pretty hard, even for experienced players.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

First, let me lead off by saying that I NEVER said other peoples experiences in Praetoria are irrelevant. I find your attempting to put words in my mouth VERY insulting. Please do not do it again. I did say that until a certain poster verifies his experiences in the live version, instead of basically saying "It was like that in beta and I just know it will be the same in the live version", I would not consider their point since it lacked credibility. Plain and simple I wish I could tell the future as good as that person does, I'd go buy some lottery tickets right now.

Second, I am sorry you assumed that I had only used one toon in Praetoria. I never said that either. I simply talked about the one toon I felt was weakest AND I am having the hardest time with, yet still making it through the new content. As for my experiences I have found the scrapper/stalker to have the easiest times (though a stalkers inability to get back into "hide" with the rapid ambushes did make things harder), the blaster was the middle of the road, and the controller is having the hardest time. My defender so far has not been played enough to truly test this out though.

As for your experiences, how many of those toons were on the live version and how many on beta. My experiences have ALL been on the live version since I refused to join beta a few months back when I was invited. I didn't want to taint the experience of the "Real" game with bad experiences from beta. I have a feeling that a lot of people are doing just that, though I will admit I can't prove it.

Third, your basic statements on the relative strengths of the different enemies I can mostly agree with. I would make a couple minor changes, but nothing worth debating. I'm just not sure if I would consider them over-powered.

Fourth, Vet attack powers are nice and all, but completely unreliable in my opinion after about level 5. The only toon I have used them very much on is the Controller and I am still having damage issues with that toon which slows things considerably. My other toons just didn't need the extra fire-power to be honest.

Lastly, I will repeat something I said earlier with a small addition - "Overall though, I am not sure how much overpowered the enemies in Praetoria are. I really think the Dev's came up with a different "style" of playing than we are used too and this has proven difficult for some to adapt too (including me)."

Never seen this, but knowing some of my SG members, we'd have a giant fracas break out in seconds every time this happened (with much laughter).

Now i want this bug to hit me...

As soon as you notice/know there are Destroyers in your the mish, why aren't you telling people to kill the Blast Masters before a fight starts?

Now graned, I think putting Blast Masters on indoor maps with tight quarters/low ceilings is a bad call (for visibility reasons if no other), but with a tiny bit of team coordination, their effect can be minimized.

The Aspect's forcefield isn't really PFF. He's essentially "no effect" even if you hit him. As of right now, he's still attacking with complete impuntiy though and it turns an otherwise tough-but-manageable group of enemies into a complete fuster-cluck.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

How do you think a new player would react in the same situation?

I can only speak for myself but if I 'died plenty' in the lowbie experience of an MMO, I'd probably quit, not because I want 'easy mode' but because I expect the lowest levels of the game, when you're learning how to play, to be gentler than the later levels, where you should have the knowledge and experience to handle tougher foes.

I read a post like this and its just emblematic of how far off the mark these forums are. Blasters and Stalkers solo from one to twenty incredibly easily. If you don't think so look at all the people that use blasters to solo the classic positron TF. The comparison with a controllers ability to hold a spawn is just wrong. The lack of damage they have at the low levels is crippling to soloing at a good pace.

Going through Praetoria on a blaster was a lark. I think I died in 4 missions. Even going through praetoria on a defender has been easy as pie.

I'd like to comment on tanks and scrappers but I took those in on Kinetic Melee, and my opinions are biased by the set and not having a comparison point with paragon city or the rogue isles yet.

Thank you!!!!
I think that is one thing we veterans keep overlooking and you summed it up nicely. We are all so caught up in "this is our expansion" that we keep glossing over the fact that this is also the revamped new player experience. There's only so far the Dev's can go with it in terms of challenge, because part of its function is to draw in and keep new players.

I've seen this twice. Once was the mission with Noble Savage as the other poster described, and the second time was a mission where you had to rescue Clockwork from cells.

Both times it was a nightmare cause the MM pets were attacking players instead of critters and the healer couldn't target us to heal.

I keep coming back to this same point with the Blast Masters: is it absolutely necessary to have 4-5 of them in each spawn (full team)? What exactly does this serve other than to frustrate people? Wouldn't 1 or 2 be sufficient?

I go thru some of these missions and really have to scratch my head trying to figure out who thought this or that was a good idea. Like "hey, let's have an ambush spawn appear behind the team just as they start to attack the first spawn! Yeah! That's gonna be great fun!"

Or, "hey lets give the Clockwork +def, +resistance, +tohit, -regen, -def, AoE DoTs, and chaining energy bolts that will kill your teammates! It'll be a riot to play!"

I might expect these things in level 41+ critters, but not at levels 1-20. And I seriously have to question how this increased difficulty is supposed to bring in new players when experienced ones are telling you (and have been for many months) that these mobs are too difficult and it's very frustrating. As an interesting aside, I was watching videos of the 2 new starting areas in the upcoming WoW expansion. And the commenter was saying how datamining showed that most people who quit WoW do so before they get to level 10. Because of this they've made the new starting areas CAKE -- like super high regeneration and energy recovery so it's absolutely impossible to die or run out of mana -- in order to make the lowbie experience as pleasant and non-frustrating as possible. Compare this to my experience yesterday of putting together a full team at level 2 and have 2 full team wipes ON THE VERY FIRST MISSION OUTSIDE THE TUTORIAL. I think that pretty much says it all.

And yes, Vahziloks suck. That's why no one does Vahzilok missions. At least on Primal Earth you have options and it's easy enough to avoid them and fight something else. In Praetoria you don't. You either do the mission given to you or you do nothing.

I hear you my friend. I just got done with this evening's play session, trying once again to level an Electric Dom in Praetoria. I called it a night a good hour earlier than I normally do, because quite honestly the thought of yet another mission of painful struggling didn't thrill me. After a long day at work I'm just too tired for it.

For much of the evening I was on a three person team:
electric/electric Dom
electric/ff Controller
Fire/Dark Corruptor

There was one mission against Resistance in which at least one of us died every spawn for several spawns in a row. Why? Our powers kept missing. Holds, heals, attacks, you name it. At one point I had every single one of my powers miss in a row. That's two controls and 4 attacks, all double-slotted with Accuracy (TO's, best I can get at level 11.) I thought that was supposed to be impossible due to the streak breaker, but I guess I don't understand how the damn thing works. And we somehow kept getting more than one group even though we were trying very hard to pull and "step up our game" as so many people keep telling me to do. We were even in our SG's Vent coordinating via voice chat. It didn't matter one whit.

So far the only character I've actually enjoyed playing in Praetoria is a Demon/Pain Mastermind. All the others have just been terrible experiences. I really like this Dom, and don't want to start him over. But once he and the MM are out of Praetoria, I won't be back. It's just not fun. If it weren't for the side switching system I would feel like I completely wasted my money on this expansion.

The frequency in which the streakbreaker kicks in depends upon what your net chance to hit is. For example, if you have a 95% chance to hit the streakbreaker will only let you miss once, with the next hit being automatic. If your chance to hit is less than 95% then it won't kick in nearly as often.

Off the top of my head I don't remember if Resistance have +defense or not, but that would explain why you missed so many times in a row. Of course it doesn't help that there seems to be a much greater percentage of spawns at +1 than before, which doesn't help. Honestly it's an old archaic mechanic that really needs to be removed once and for all. If my mission is set for 0 then all the spawns should be even-level, period. It only winds up creating problems especially now that we have auto sidekicking.