City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes & Known Issues for build 1850.201007290104.20T2

0verload

By 0verload,
Posted on: 2010-08-24 09:18 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion

 

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Originally Posted by Lillika View Post
I'm gonna disagree here. I have an easy time soloing and at most a mildly challenging time teaming in full groups. The small 2-3 person groups I do with friends, with a balance of classes, leaves me dreading each set of mobs more than the next. Especially with the Syndicate.
I find soloing in Praetoria to be the easiest yes. What I was saying though was that small teams do better than large ones in my opinion. Every time I have been on a large team, the deaths went up considerably. Could be just my own experience though.

 

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I have seen a lot of different opinions in this thread and so far it has only lead to one conclusion for me. Some people like to breeze through the first twenty levels to get to the better powers and such. Others (like me) like a challenge the whole way through, in other words, they enjoy building their toons up. These types of people seem to like the challenge of Praetoria.

BTW, Zamuel, I personally think your argument hits the nail squarely on the head here.

At this point it is probably best if we agree to disagree and see what the Dev's do. They certainly have enough feedback to make a decision. Unfortunately, I am absolutely certain that the people on this thread will not be able to do that.

 

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Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous View Post
Fair enough. But how do you think new players might feel, not having the knowledge we do, with Praetoria being their first exposure to the CoH universe?

Even though they don't feel overpowered to you, can you at least acknowledge that the current level of difficultly and subsequent frustration might be too much for new players and the less experienced who are likely to quit long before they've learned said tactics?

I aknowledge it. It can be a PITA for a newbie, but I also think that the 1-20 Hero Game is a joke. The 1-20 Villain game is harder, and now the 1-20 Praetorian game is on par with that. I am fine with that.


"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho

 

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
You're missing one quite vital point here. Demolitionists are part of the Scrapyarders faction. You run into Scrapyarders for the first time in Sharkhead. Sharkhead is a level 20-30 zone.

Destroyer Blast Masters run from 1-15.

Saying something in Praetoria is "just like" something you encounter at much higher levels is poor memory at best, outright deceit at worst. Things that aren't a problem when you're running on SO enhancements can be colossal obstacles when you only have TO and DO enhancements to count on.
Sorry, but I often play over my head and end up taking on scrapyarders early on. OK, so How about those Arachnos troops and Longbow that you face from 1-50. Nullifers and mini guns are overpowered in the early game. no one complains. Arachnos ambushes you at doors before you even zone in completely, forget about being a mastermind for some missions, you will be dead long before you summon pets(which is why pets zone with you now I bet)

Its a new game, do you expect to play the same way that you have been for years? That's not healthy for the game as a whole in my opinion.

(sorry if i am sounding a little fanboi-ish. I realize that I am starting to sound like someone that I despise on these boards, grrrr)

Those zone level things are funny, you can go into them a lot earlier than stated. Hell, if you want all of your mayhems, you had better go in asap, or you WILL miss some.

FYI, I run with drops ONLY to 25. Remember, I think that I was the only person protesting the loss of TO's. With Nems, if you have the wrong tactics and rush in headlong kill an LT(as you get used to in the early game, take out the big boy first mentality and all), you are dead on a squishy, TO/DO/SO/IO it don't matter.

I have come to trust this dev team to a point. Am I happy with all of their changes? Hell to the no. I don't even like half of them, but I realize that jawing on the forums is akin to howling at the moon. They will fix it when THEY are ready. We have to adapt or quit.


"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho

 

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
Sorry, but I often play over my head and end up taking on scrapyarders early on. OK, so How about those Arachnos troops and Longbow that you face from 1-50. Nullifers and mini guns are overpowered in the early game. no one complains. Arachnos ambushes you at doors before you even zone in completely, forget about being a mastermind for some missions, you will be dead long before you summon pets(which is why pets zone with you now I bet)
One of the things you'll notice when you examine Primal Earth critters that exist over large level ranges, like Longbow, Arachnos, and CoT, is that the low-level versions are significantly easier to deal with than the higher ones. Longbow won't start tossing out -resistance grenades till the 40s. CoT Ruin Mages and Spectral Lord LTs don't show up till your 20s and Earth Thorn Casters your 30s. Most critters groups on Primal Earth are pretty tame in the 1-20 range (with a few notable exceptions like Wyvern and Vahziloks). The problem with the critters in Praetoria is they are built like they should be level 40+ by the nature of the extreme damage and multiple stacking buffs and debuffs.

I again had another few hours of play last night that was completely destroyed by repeated team wipes by Clockwork. To the point where people just kept quitting faster than I could invite them. There is no legitimate reason why it needs to be like this. It's not fun, it's not challenging, it's just frustrating. Cause you're pulling out every trick you know, using strategy, having a well-balanced team, and YOU'RE STILL GETTING WIPED. Sorry, but it's not my idea of fun. I'll repeat what I said before -- an average PUG should easily be able to run thru even-level content with a minimal amount of death. If they can't something is wrong.

I've played thru all 4 of the major arcs in Praetoria and I'm done. Sub expires soon and that'll be the end of it. Maybe if things get toned down in the future I'll come back, but I'm not gonna pay for something I don't enjoy playing, and honestly it's too little, too late, as the damage has already been done (first impressions and all that junk). And I certainly can't recommend the expansion to anyone I know. There was so much potential here that's completely marred by poor design choices that just don't make any sense. It also doesn't help that the devs have been completely silent on the issue (and pretty much every other issue that's come up). Not a great way to foster good relations with your playerbase. Meh, whatever, I'm done. I've expended way too much negative energy on this already. I and others have said what we needed to say, take it or leave it. After 3 months in beta with dozens of posts repeatedly saying the same things it's clear no one is listening (or caring, or bothering to explain why things are the way they are), so there's no point in beating the dead horse any longer.

 

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Capt. Fab can I haz ur stuff?

 

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Originally Posted by GPBunny View Post
Capt. Fab can I haz ur stuff?
Nope.

 

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Originally Posted by Vega View Post
I aknowledge it. It can be a PITA for a newbie, but I also think that the 1-20 Hero Game is a joke. The 1-20 Villain game is harder, and now the 1-20 Praetorian game is on par with that. I am fine with that.
The 1-20 villain side is harder than the 1-20 hero side. I agree on that. But I think the 1-20 Praetorian is even harder than that. In primal Earth you end up fighting a lot of the same badguys. Hellions, Skulls, Council. All of those pretty easy gangs. You do fight some extras like Snakes that can be difficult. And there's Arachnos which you fight more of redside. But Arachnos and Longbow don't really do anything in the low levels so they aren't a problem. And if you get a team going you can start to run +1 and +2.

In Praetoria you have enemies that are chock full of powerful AoEs starting at level 1, and enemies running around with defense, Tactics, and Super Strength. You can't edit the difficulty but I can't imagine doing so on purpose if we had the chance.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
The 1-20 villain side is harder than the 1-20 hero side. I agree on that. But I think the 1-20 Praetorian is even harder than that. In primal Earth you end up fighting a lot of the same badguys. Hellions, Skulls, Council. All of those pretty easy gangs. You do fight some extras like Snakes that can be difficult. And there's Arachnos which you fight more of redside. But Arachnos and Longbow don't really do anything in the low levels so they aren't a problem. And if you get a team going you can start to run +1 and +2.

In Praetoria you have enemies that are chock full of powerful AoEs starting at level 1, and enemies running around with defense, Tactics, and Super Strength. You can't edit the difficulty but I can't imagine doing so on purpose if we had the chance.
I'd be putting it on -1.

 

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I'm sad I can't put bosses in while soloing.

@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.

 

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
The 1-20 villain side is harder than the 1-20 hero side. I agree on that. But I think the 1-20 Praetorian is even harder than that. In primal Earth you end up fighting a lot of the same badguys. Hellions, Skulls, Council. All of those pretty easy gangs. You do fight some extras like Snakes that can be difficult. And there's Arachnos which you fight more of redside. But Arachnos and Longbow don't really do anything in the low levels so they aren't a problem. And if you get a team going you can start to run +1 and +2.

In Praetoria you have enemies that are chock full of powerful AoEs starting at level 1, and enemies running around with defense, Tactics, and Super Strength. You can't edit the difficulty but I can't imagine doing so on purpose if we had the chance.
OK, so we have three starting zones now with three different levels of difficulty. So why are you complaining? Really, the CoH starting area IS a joke and while CoV is better, it still isn't much of a challenge. People who actually want a challenging start to the game get to go to Praetoria then. Now THAT sounds fare to me and if you actually think about it, you will probably agree. It's also the ONLY starting area that you can not change the difficulty . . . think maybe that was done on purpose? I do.

I think at this point though, I would recommend to the Dev's that in the character creation screen where we are given a choice in what area to start, that an auto-screen pops up to tell us the difficulty levels of the three areas. Or maybe just list it below the Icons for the three areas.

At this point the only really appropriate complaint (IMO) is that the higher level toons can not go to Praetoria yet (though that is complained about more in-game than in the forums). It has already been said in the last on-line Q&A that it will be happening soon so that complaint is moot too.

As for Captain Fabulous's rant . . . something tells me you won't be heading out any time soon. If you do though, good luck in all your future endeavors (I am being sincere here, no joking/sarcasm intended).

 

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Originally Posted by GMan3 View Post
OK, so we have three starting zones now with three different levels of difficulty. So why are you complaining?
I'll stop you right there. The answer is because new players CANNOT start anywhere but Praetoria. New players will only experience the hardest starting difficulty there is, whether they want to or not.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I'll stop you right there. The answer is because new players CANNOT start anywhere but Praetoria. New players will only experience the hardest starting difficulty there is, whether they want to or not.
OK, maybe your right. Except I have the Complete Collection installed on my computer and it just let me make a hero and take it to Paragon City. I also have two friends that started playing after GR was released and they have no problem making a toon in either Paragon City of the Rogue Isles. GR was NOT intended as the only starting zone, it was designed to be an additional starting zone. Get your facts straight next time please.

 

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Originally Posted by GMan3 View Post
OK, maybe your right. Except I have the Complete Collection installed on my computer and it just let me make a hero and take it to Paragon City. I also have two friends that started playing after GR was released and they have no problem making a toon in either Paragon City of the Rogue Isles. GR was NOT intended as the only starting zone, it was designed to be an additional starting zone. Get your facts straight next time please.
People who buy GR and activate a new account have to make their first character in Praetoria. After that they can make others, elsewhere, but they still have to experience Praetoria first.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
People who buy GR and activate a new account have to make their first character in Praetoria. After that they can make others, elsewhere, but they still have to experience Praetoria first.
OMG, that's your argument? I just lost all respect for you Dispari. Not even bothering to reply further.

 

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Originally Posted by GMan3 View Post
As for Captain Fabulous's rant . . . something tells me you won't be heading out any time soon. If you do though, good luck in all your future endeavors (I am being sincere here, no joking/sarcasm intended).
It wasn't a rant. Just stating the way I feel. I spent almost $80 on the expansion and I feel ripped off. So yeah, I'm very unhappy with the way Praetoria turned out. And it's enough for me to finally say enough and take a very long break. I don't see why I should continue to support a company that clearly doesn't give a rat's *** about what we think, and whose idea of fun seems to be radically different than mine. It's been a long time coming too, and GR is kinda the last straw for me.

I'm sure I'll be back from time to time for special events, double xp weekends, free reactivations and the like. But the days of me blinding paying $30 a month, month after month, are over.

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Originally Posted by GMan3 View Post
OMG, that's your argument? I just lost all respect for you Dispari. Not even bothering to reply further.
Why? Dispari makes a great point. If you're new to the game, and just starting out, the game requires you to go to Praetoria first. You're not going to know that it's the hardest of the three areas, nor are you likely to make that first character, log it out, and then re-make it as a hero. I'm sorry but no one is going to do that.

The fact they are forcing new players into Praetoria quite literally means they want them to play there first. Which makes the increased difficulty even more baffling.

 

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Wow Cap, gonna have to put you down there with Dispari. That is plain and simple the weakest argument I have heard yet.

As for your leaving, I wish you fair winds and following seas.

 

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Originally Posted by GMan3 View Post
OMG, that's your argument? I just lost all respect for you Dispari. Not even bothering to reply further.
My incredibly flawed argument is that people who are playing this game for the first time are forced to run through the hardest content? And that's their first experience with the game. If the first time you play a game you lose repeatedly tons of times, and are forced to overcome the really difficult stuff before you're allowed to play the regular stuff, that's not very fun. And as a brand new player you may not even know that there are easier options out there. Maybe you just think it gets harder from that point on.

But I'm not too heartbroken since you seem to be handing out tickets of no-reputation left and right anyway.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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I'm still waiting to be bombarded with the rush of new players...

I've seen maybe, 3 in game with no vet badges and 3 on the boards asking questions...

I was really, really hoping GR would give us a large boost in popularity.

I'm still loving it all the same, just wish they'd spent something on advertising.

Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!

 

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Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous View Post
Longbow won't start tossing out -resistance grenades till the 40s. CoT Ruin Mages and Spectral Lord LTs don't show up till your 20s
30s and teens actually. Been seeing the latter a fair amount due lowbie alts.

 

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I have respect for people (not reputation) with strong well thought out arguments that are debated well, yours and Cap are not. I have yet to hear of one single new person that does not like Praetoria, while I have talked to several that like/love it (keep an eye on the local and broadcast chat like I have, it's amazing what you will see).

Your argument is flawed because YOU don't like something and expect that EVERY new player will feel the same way. I don't buy that and neither will anyone else that thinks about it.

In my experience new players (myself and others I have talked to) to almost any game EXPECT to have a hard time until they learn the rules. At that point they are moving on to other areas of the game.

That is why yours and Cap's arguments are not worthy of my respect anymore (BTW, you two used to be the people I respected the most, even though I disagreed with you often). Stop quoting imaginary people and use your own arguments for yourself and not EVERY NEW PLAYER OUT THERE.

 

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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius View Post
I'm still waiting to be bombarded with the rush of new players...

I've seen maybe, 3 in game with no vet badges and 3 on the boards asking questions...

I was really, really hoping GR would give us a large boost in popularity.

I'm still loving it all the same, just wish they'd spent something on advertising.
I have been seen a bunch of new players MaestroMavius, but not as many as I would have expected. Still though, they seem to be doing a lot of advertising/contests after the release too, so maybe it was done intentionally to work out the remaining bugs before the real push went out (I am strongly hoping this anyways).

 

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Originally Posted by GMan3 View Post
I have respect for people (not reputation) with strong well thought out arguments that are debated well, yours and Cap are not. I have yet to hear of one single new person that does not like Praetoria, while I have talked to several that like/love it (keep an eye on the local and broadcast chat like I have, it's amazing what you will see).

Your argument is flawed because YOU don't like something and expect that EVERY new player will feel the same way. I don't buy that and neither will anyone that uses more than three brain cells to think about it.
You're way off base here for about a dozen reasons.

One, if you haven't met anyone who doesn't like the difficulty in Praetoria yet you have your eyes and ears covered. There are a lot of threads complaining about the difficulty, a lot of people who complain about the enemies in Praetoria, and a lot of people who are worried they're too strong. Heck there are like half a dozen in this thread alone that are worried about how hard the stuff in Praetoria is. It was an issue all through beta, is still an issue, and still the thing I hear about most in my global channels is how group x is too hard.

And two, no, I don't want things to change because I want things to be a certain way for selfish gain. I want the game to be easier for new players, and then you can have your ability to ramp up the difficulty if you so chose with the difficulty settings. EVERYONE wins. I'm not enforcing my will on you, I'm adding more options to the game. If you think that me changing the game to suit my needs and ignoring everyone else, you're wrong.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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I have to agree with GMan3 here Dispari (and Captain Fabulous). I started playing around last Christmas (2009) and I was surprised at how easy the game was. That actually put me in a funk for a while toward this game. Now we get a new starting area with some real challenge and people like you want to Nerf it. I'm sorry, but that is lame.

Oh and how many new players even know what a global channel is? I played for three months before someone told me about them. That part of your argument makes you look like a liar or at the very least an exaggerator. Not sure which. (Not saying you are, but that is what it looks like from here.)

 

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Originally Posted by GMan3 View Post
I have respect for people (not reputation) with strong well thought out arguments that are debated well, yours and Cap are not. I have yet to hear of one single new person that does not like Praetoria, while I have talked to several that like/love it (keep an eye on the local and broadcast chat like I have, it's amazing what you will see).
Hmm, funny, cause I was just in Imperial City a few hours ago doing some odds n ends and there was a guy complaining in broadcast about how he was unable to complete his mission cause he was getting his *** handed to him in less than 5 seconds, over and over again, and he can't understand why it's so damned difficult and has no idea how he's gonna finish it.

Yes, it's VERY amazing what you will see when you stop and look.

And I do know that I had one brand new player on a team at one point this week, and he confessed he felt very confused, overwhelmed, and that things seemed extremely difficult (as we were experiencing multiple team wipes), much moreso than he would have expected just starting out.

But I'm sure we're all just the exceptions, right? Clearly it's the best thing for everyone to start new players in the hardest of the 3 starting areas. Funny how Blizzard, the #1 MMO developer in the world, is taking the exact opposite approach with their new expansion. Golly, what MUST they be thinking?

Whatever, there is no point trying to have a logical discussion with you. You stopped making any sense at least 3 posts ago.