Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes & Known Issues for build 1850.201007290104.20T2

If new players "die plenty" when playing the standard game for the first time, and veteran players "die plenty" when playing Praetoria, I can only imagine how often new players are getting mowed down.

I like the information about the WoW stuff. It makes sense too. Very early on people want to be able to learn how the game works at their leisure and carve out a playstyle for themselves. If they're used to other MMOs, they need the time to adapt to our rules and learn the differences. If they're getting annihilated by +0 minions, they're just going to realize the major difference between what they're used to and this game is that our game is really freaking hard. It should be after players are more comfortable with the game that they can seek out challenges (such as with the notariety setting) that they should begin to worry about dying.

One good example I can see is the tutorials and the flashback versions of them. It's near impossible to die in tutorials, but those are very brief and the game hikes up to a difficulty where you can actually die pretty fast (as in, immediately at level 2). If you compare Outbreak to the Oroboros version of outbreak, the enemies are more difficult and numerous -- but by that time you're level 25 and have the experience to actually handle real enemies.

I kind of feel like the enemies up through level 5 should be as easy as the ones in the tutorial. Players who want to be challenged can do so slightly later on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Can't we have a difficulty person in Praetoria so the people who want hard groups can have them and the people who don't, don't?



That seems really, the simplest step... If you wanted to expand further, add something like a 'normal, hard, extreme' difficulty slider where enemies have more powers and such. (Maybe EXP bonuses for being evil incarnate...)

PPD on normal would have their armor with a paltry resistance and their force gauntlet... Not much better than PPD in mayhems. Turn it up to hard, they gain more resistance, more damage... Extreme gives them new powers, more damage...

It's not entirely hard to figure out.

What is asked however is a large sign with a bar saying 'You must be this skilled to play, if not, go away'

I've only been playing 24 months. I have a serious case of altitus so have played all ATs into the 40s. I have got approximately 15 characters to 50 - via playing - not PLing.

I have solo'd in Praet with a stalker and duo'd with a friend. (When I first played with him over 18 months ago, he was taking on Knives of Artemis at the hardest difficulty with a Fire/Rad troller.) We aren't wimps.

But when we are wiped at base difficulty with vet powers and five years of game time between us (we know about pulling etc) ... you have to question the base difficulty. Forcing new players into Praetoria was a mistake. It is much more difficult than PC or RI.

Praetoria is stunningly pretty. As soon as my stalker on Beta had Ninja Run, I went for a run around all of the zones. I was impressed by the design. I was less impressed that the graphics settings which are fine in Paragon/Isles result in lag in Praetoria.

Some of the interiors are stunning. Getting lag inside a mission because of 20+ computer monitors is not. It is unforgivable that lowering settings doesn't work to improve fps. I /bugged it during the beta and it's shameful that this hasn't been addressed along with the ability to kill your team mates.

If the aim was to enable CoX to continue to be played by all, then it failed in Praetoria.

The missions are exceptionally well-written, the world is beautiful but do I want to start another character there? Frankly .. no. And that's from someone who pre-purchased on one account and bought the Complete Collection on their second account.

Are there any notes for the patch that I got today?

"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho

I just want to throw out there that I do solo x8 content, I do solo AVs, I do build characters that are nigh-invulnverable and unstoppable machines of doom.

But they don't get there at level 20. The earliest I've gotten to the point I can take an AV is level 42. Challenges for my level 40+ characters simply do not belong in the 20- game, because the tools we have at 40+ are much more varied, much more powerful, and much more available than the tools we have at 20-.

I excel at builds, not at playstyle. I've been playing some Regen toons lately to try to redevelop my twitch skills, but I'm well on middle age here and there's only so much twitch left to me. I have to build awesome, because my body simply isn't capable of playing awesome any more. This game allows me to build unstoppable characters, but it doesn't allow me to build unstoppable characters at level 20, let alone level 10.

I know what I'm doing, and I still see Praetoria as unfairly designed, especially when there are no difficulty contacts with which to tone things down. Praetoria's enemies aren't a matter of "learn to play better", they're a matter of "designed unfairly with advantages players cannot counter at these levels." The mobs as designed would work quite well as challenging 40+ enemies; at level 10, they are grossly unfair.

What works at 40 does not work at 20. The two games are very different.

I have said many times before - as someone with over 25 years of playing PnP RPGs - that throwing in a LOT more enemies, or ramping up their attack and/or defense abilities, against a party just because, is the sign of a bad or lazy GM. Here, I think it's a case of the latter, where the devs have wanted to provide more of a challenge, but have gone too far in that direction.

(Trust me, I've left gaming groups where the GM has, in numerous games, thrown more and more at us, all because his mentality was "I'm having a bad day, so I'm gonna make sure these guys have an even worse day.")

I repeatedly sent in bugs on the new groups, telling the devs that new players will have so much difficulty - from both the power levels and sheer size - with these groups that a number of them will probably just leave the game in disgust.

I believe that a lot of us veteran players have forgotten how bad it was when we first started this game. For me, there were times when it was sheer torture trying to get through a single mission. I have to second the poster who suggested that the 1-20 game should be less deadly, as that's when a new player is trying to learn how to play the game. (And they should be learning how to play the game, not the fastest route from the hospital to the mission door.)

Let's not have every mission be full of +1/+2 enemy, with spawns crowded around almost every square inch of the map. And I will also agree, why the need for 4-5 Blast Masters in a spawn, all with their 'homing missile' blast charges, when maybe 1-2 (or even 2-3) would suffice.

I also want to add in one more thing. There have been too many times where I'm encountered these new enemy groups, and their hit-ratio is near 100%, while mine is in the toilet. Too much of that and you'll see players give up in disgust.

(Oh, one last thing. I'd like to see the data on which of the new Praetorian missions is auto-completed the most. I'll bet those are the toughest ones.)

Blast Masters and Big Dogs are the worst offenders. Not only do you get stuck in multiple Burn patches, you also get Foot Stomped to high heaven. This is particularly rough for MMs, where respawning pets after every mob becomes tedious.

nope. I was just giving my opinion.

My first few encounters with Nemesis taught me all I needed to know about trying to rush in head long all the time. I still don't think that they are that bad. They don't feel overpowered to me.

"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho

There does seem like a rather distinct paradigm shift on enemies that someone noted and I think bears examining. In Paragon City, a lowbie team works best with a full 8 and they can basically steamroll without actually needing to know how to learn how to play the game. The threats the enemy groups present sort of don't matter unless it's a smaller team or you massively over pull. In Praetoria, teams work better with two or three members because they get a variety of abilities yet the groups haven't stacked enough yet. Essentially, it's an issue of force multiplication.

I find mention of Malta in a conversation about difficulty kind of interesting because many players avoid them. In a lot of ways I feel it's an issue of not being able to get away with scrapperlock that causes some of the discontent with some enemy groups and a lot of Praetoria. While solo Stalkers may struggle with parts of Praetoria, it really looks like the content is designed to make them more viable on a team. Kill the Blast Master before it even drops the burn patch or take a chunk out of the Big Dog even if you can't one shot it.

Not wanting to dismiss the vets because many are far far better at the game than I but I think people are being taken out of their comfort zone and not knowing how to adjust.

I'm not sure this is the case, but it may be. I hope it is. I hope it's a forced change of tactics.. Some things just rock Prime Earths world. But perhaps not here, new tactic needed.. Or maybe it's just way more difficult, as some are saying.

I know I cruised (fought with difficulty that I survived) with my first 3 builds, (Tank, Troller, Brute) but none was the stereotypical build. And I am far from the Uber Player some are..


For me, it was challenging, and fun.. Never was a 'too tough'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispari It should be noted, I think, since someone will bring it up, that there may still be ways to improve your gameplay and do better. The problem with that is, you're pretty much requiring a level of player competency that exceeds even standard veteran skills. There are real players around and in this thread stating they have absolutely no trouble with Praetoria whatsoever and they don't know what people are talking about. I'm sure there are some people out there who are good enough that they aren't at all challenged by the new enemies. But there are real, actual veteran players who are pretty good at this game already, and while maybe they aren't the best players around, they are having real, actual problems dying to these enemies despite their numerous advantages such as knowledge of game mechanics and veteran rewards. The problem though is you're expecting brand new players to attain this level of skill. And right away. It's about like introducing someone to a fighting game by handing them the controller during the final boss fight. Absolute experts at the game may find this very easy as they've memorized every intricate detail and the moves and patterns, and know the ins-and-outs enough to play to their advantage. Normal veteran players may be good enough to run the rest of the game okay but still struggle with this fight. A brand new player experiencing this for the first time with no proper training and time to learn is just going to die repeatedly, throw the controller, and leave the room. And by leave the room I mean go play another MMO.