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This is intimately linked to the cooldown on placate. Leaving placate as-is, as low as 4 is fine. Giving us placate more often, maybe 6 is fine.
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Originally Posted by Beelzy
What is an appropriate cooldown for hidden status?
Was 10, now 8, should it be as low as 4? |
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Quote:
I like it where it is. We don't need to get back to Hide because we're not ALL about Hide. Attacking from hidden is one thing. It shouldn't be the only thing.
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Originally Posted by Beelzy
What is an appropriate cooldown for hidden status?
Was 10, now 8, should it be as low as 4? |
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Quote:
Saying it is just one power is understating just a bit. It's one power that every powerset is forced to take. Even so, however, it in and of itself does not define us as an archetype. |
Originally Posted by Zem
I like it where it is. We don't need to get back to Hide because we're not ALL about Hide. Attacking from hidden is one thing. It shouldn't be the only thing.
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The ability to crit from hidden status, however, is half our inherent. Take that away and we'd be weak scrappers with a placate and a very bleh melee snipe that everyone would likely skip.
I have no opinion as of now on lowering the hide timer. I'm leaning heavily towards it not being necessary, but if I had to choose between improving the archetype via more opportunities to exploit hidden status or improving the archetype by improving random criticals, I would choose the former every day and twice on Sunday. The ability to control when and when we get criticals is the only thing we get that's unique to us.
Fortunately, simply improving the crit damage across the board will satisfy both options. I'd still prefer that to a straight up damage buff or a survivability buff because I don't think we need any more encouragement to scrap. Scrapping for stalkers should be a means towards increased damage through criticals. It shouldn't be the bread and butter of the powerset the way it is for scrappers and brutes.
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Having read the thread I would say I prefer being able to get into hidden status (thus crit more) faster/and or easier/with other methods, ie, having better control over when we crit.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Saying it is just one power is understating just a bit. It's one power that every powerset is forced to take. Even so, however, it in and of itself does not define us as an archetype.
The ability to crit from hidden status, however, is half our inherent. Take that away and we'd be weak scrappers with a placate and a very bleh melee snipe that everyone would likely skip. I have no opinion as of now on lowering the hide timer. I'm leaning heavily towards it not being necessary, but if I had to choose between improving the archetype via more opportunities to exploit hidden status or improving the archetype by improving random criticals, I would choose the former every day and twice on Sunday. The ability to control when and when we get criticals is the only thing we get that's unique to us. Fortunately, simply improving the crit damage across the board will satisfy both options. I'd still prefer that to a straight up damage buff or a survivability buff because I don't think we need any more encouragement to scrap. Scrapping for stalkers should be a means towards increased damage through criticals. It shouldn't be the bread and butter of the powerset the way it is for scrappers and brutes. |
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Well unless they introduce some extra mechanic to *get* you back into hidden status or hidden status returns in less than 4 seconds (which is broken, by the way), it will always be better to simply keep fighting until the targets are dead. Waiting, while currently a usable tactic when picking through targets, is disingenuous to your ultimate goal, to destroy targets.
Not only that, but it reinforces the concept of the hit-and-run AT and I REFUSE to back a change that makes the ignorant correct. We aren't hit-and-run. We aren't "cower behind box because we get 2-shotted too much" melee. And we're not one-trick ponies.
If we're expecting some change to the AT, I'd rather something that compliments natural combat. Something that extends the use of what we have rather than just make it happen more often. Because using placate every 5 seconds or waiting 4sec for hide to come back shouldn't be the breadth of what we do.
I understand not wanting to be one trick ponies, but what is wrong with having a viable hit and run class?
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Because then teams won't want you for one. |
Originally Posted by Beelzy
I understand not wanting to be one trick ponies, but what is wrong with having a viable hit and run class?
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Before the changes to stalkers, I treated my stalker the same way as I did now...get into the middle of the group, pick my target, release one big hit, then scrap it out.
Which target I picked, depended on a mob to mob basis. Sometimes I'd want that Minion or LT taken out in one shot, sometimes I knew it was better to get as much damage done to that boss first, then worry about the others.
Basically, I've played my stalkers as a scrapper with better invisibility.
Hit and run can work for solo (it becomes a matter of patience), but on teams, boring, and you're not helping your team at all (and thusly why stalkers have gotten a bad rap).
You're stalker is tougher than that blaster, corruptor, defender, troller...maybe not that Dominator though >_>
And really, hit and run would only be useful if you killed that target in one hit. And I just don't see Stalkers always taking out the boss level enemies in one shot (outside of inspirations being buffed) as happening. Not enough to make it worthwhile for the team to have a hit and run type.
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Personally, I'd love a mechanic similar to the crit scaling we have with nearby allies, but with enemies instead. The more targets around you, the higher your chance to crit. It ups our damage in large mob settings, such as bigger teams, isn't directly linked to hide, and doesn't monkey around with base modifiers.
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I understand, and I was not arguing that Stalkers should be purely hit and run, I was just arguing that making them better at hit and run is not a bad thing if it doesn't harm other areas.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Because then teams won't want you for one.
Before the changes to stalkers, I treated my stalker the same way as I did now...get into the middle of the group, pick my target, release one big hit, then scrap it out. Which target I picked, depended on a mob to mob basis. Sometimes I'd want that Minion or LT taken out in one shot, sometimes I knew it was better to get as much damage done to that boss first, then worry about the others. Basically, I've played my stalkers as a scrapper with better invisibility. Hit and run can work for solo (it becomes a matter of patience), but on teams, boring, and you're not helping your team at all (and thusly why stalkers have gotten a bad rap). You're stalker is tougher than that blaster, corruptor, defender, troller...maybe not that Dominator though >_> And really, hit and run would only be useful if you killed that target in one hit. And I just don't see Stalkers always taking out the boss level enemies in one shot (outside of inspirations being buffed) as happening. Not enough to make it worthwhile for the team to have a hit and run type. |
I'm in a different time zone than most, so I generally don't team, also a personality thing, but whatever. Hit and run shouldn't be our primary tactic in team play in most scenarios. We do need some buff to our team role, but does improving our solo viability as well is important.
For solo play we need a shorter cooldown on hidden status and a -regen or -res proc on assassin's strike to help us with AVs.
For group play we need an increase to crit damage and possibly some other fixes.
There needs to be a way to fix both the solo and group shortcomings without making stalkers overpowered.
Quote:
The "and run" part.
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Originally Posted by Beelzy
I understand not wanting to be one trick ponies, but what is wrong with having a viable hit and run class?
|
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To me the fix is a very simple one, Stalkers have little AoE and so in a game based on damage causes them to be marginalized.
The Fix:
Give the TEAM a 4 second 15 foot Scourge directly after the Stalker delivers an AS. This is absolutely fair because having someone pop out of hiding and slamming one of the mobs would cause chaos in a real situation.
This makes the short Scourge the result of you causing the group to be unsettled and lose focus. This makes Stalkers desirable in teams and with stacking Scourges having even 2 or more becomes HIGHLY desirable.
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Hmmm...I'm actually at a loss to what you're saying then. I have no problem with the soloing.|
Originally Posted by Beelzy
I understand, and I was not arguing that Stalkers should be purely hit and run, I was just arguing that making them better at hit and run is not a bad thing if it doesn't harm other areas.
I'm in a different time zone than most, so I generally don't team, also a personality thing, but whatever. Hit and run shouldn't be our primary tactic in team play in most scenarios. We do need some buff to our team role, but does improving our solo viability as well is important. For solo play we need a shorter cooldown on hidden status and a -regen or -res proc on assassin's strike to help us with AVs. For group play we need an increase to crit damage and possibly some other fixes. There needs to be a way to fix both the solo and group shortcomings without making stalkers overpowered. |
didn't have problems with soloing a stalker before the buffs, and havent had a problem afterwards.
Solo, if you want to hit and run, you can do easy enough.
If by soloing you mean farm, well that's a different story, however, I don't think faming ability (I have no problem with people farming, when I say this), should be a factor in anything.
Do defeat all missions become a PITA with a single target specialist? Yeah. But then, Stalkers aren't the only single target specialists out there.
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Very true. The "and run" causes bad feelings on a team. It is fine solo, it is not ok in a team scenario.|
Originally Posted by Zem
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Other games have ways around it that work fine. Including bonuses based on positions. Our crit bonus from nearby teammates is a start in that direction.
But if the whole team is attacking, and you are running, that is bad. If the game mechanics encourage you to run when everyone else attacks, I suggest that is poor design.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
The issues with soloing are, as you said, defeat alls, but also it is easier to solo an AV with a scrapper than a stalker, and that simply shouldn't be the case.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Hmmm...I'm actually at a loss to what you're saying then. I have no problem with the soloing.
didn't have problems with soloing a stalker before the buffs, and havent had a problem afterwards. Solo, if you want to hit and run, you can do easy enough. If by soloing you mean farm, well that's a different story, however, I don't think faming ability (I have no problem with people farming, when I say this), should be a factor in anything. Do defeat all missions become a PITA with a single target specialist? Yeah. But then, Stalkers aren't the only single target specialists out there. |
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Uh... why? Stalkers should be more deadly, but soloing an AV also involved endurance and survival neither of which is necessarily in the job description of a Stalker.|
Originally Posted by Beelzy
The issues with soloing are, as you said, defeat alls, but also it is easier to solo an AV with a scrapper than a stalker, and that simply shouldn't be the case.
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In any case, the devs will never consider AV soloing an aspect of AT balance. It was probably never intended to be possible. You are more likely to be nerfed if you can than buffed if you can't solo an AV.
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Quote:
It is more of a manner than an ability I am concerned with. In order to solo AVs, an aspect of the game that exists whether the devs like it or not, is that Stalkers essentially have to scrap AVs because of the high regen rather than kiting. The problem is that the endurance and survival problems are caused by the lack of ability to utilize our abilities in survival, stealth, and endurance, exploitation of burst damage, in appropriate ways because of AV regen and an excessively long hidden status cooldown.
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Originally Posted by Zem
Uh... why? Stalkers should be more deadly, but soloing an AV also involved endurance and survival neither of which is necessarily in the job description of a Stalker.
In any case, the devs will never consider AV soloing an aspect of AT balance. It was probably never intended to be possible. You are more likely to be nerfed if you can than buffed if you can't solo an AV. |
I have had no issue taking down an AV with my stalker...but ninjitsue and divine avalanche can go a long way.
i wish they would raise some of the damage on some of the stalkers non-assasin strike powers...
I also wish they would put a few more secondary effects in
I mean exactly how sad is it that a NPC with a common stealth effect is more stealthed then a stalker with hide....
I guess i think hide should have some sort of perception bonus.
And i always feel there should be an incentive to get most of the powers from the set...even the bad ones...
Also they might want to raise the duration of the buff power for each stalker set for stalkers(by about 1 second or 2)....as the animation times on many stalkers eat the duration.....i mean just why a penalty like that is imposed i am not quite sure.....(yes you are stalker so all your powers have increased animation times)
Having gotten my Stalker to 50, I think think the following...
MORE DAMAGE!
I'm not 1-shotting a level 40 Fake Nemesis without Build Up, with my Assassin Strike! 
Moving up to Scrapper damage mods, would likely do it!
Survivability wise, I feel fine. Less health than scrappers, that just makes combat a bit more interresting (not that I'd be oppossed to a max health increase...not a base health increase).
DAMAGE! That's what I like to see! A BIG BOOM!
Blasters can have their AOE NUKES! Stalkers can have their ST NUKES!
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Where's the KABOOM? There's supposed to be an earth-shattering KABOOM!
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm not 1-shotting a level 40 Fake Nemesis without Build Up, with my Assassin Strike!
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The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Well, I think some adjustments could be made to make build up better for Stalkers, and maybe up the radius on the Crit boost they get from teammates as well (and get a corresponding increase to their HP cap that they got to their base back in... I12, wasn't it? I13?). But Single-shotting a boss, even though it requires Build Up? Not sure if that's going to fly. As it is, it already does a good chunk off a boss, and you can drop a lieutenant with it as well.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Having gotten my Stalker to 50, I think think the following...
MORE DAMAGE! I'm not 1-shotting a level 40 Fake Nemesis without Build Up, with my Assassin Strike! |
I do agree that Stalkers should stand out a little more offensively, as their tradeoff in the melee AT wars. I think increasing the boost from Build up and making the crit boost from teammates more reliable would be the best ways to do this (that don't seem potentially unbalancing).
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You seem to have missed the part about the Stalker in question being level 50 and the boss being level 40.
For a 10 level difference you'd think AS would insta win, especially considering anything 5 levels or higher is considered a no contest because of the Purple Patch and how much your level vs theirs effects everything.
Ah, yes. Missed that last night. Been sick and a little out of it, so I missed the level differential for some reason. That does seem weird, actually, since it knocks down a lot of a boss's health when they're at your level. They do have a lot of HP, I guess.
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What I think needs to happen to be viable is for us to have hour single target damage be comparable to aoe. So whats got to happen is our tier 2 attacks and higher need to be able to 1 shot +4 minions. If we are taking minions out fast its similar to aoe damage that we are missing. Outside of that they would have to do a revamp and put back all the missing powers and create a few for the sets that didnt have them to begin with. I would love lotus drops on my ninja blade stalker. 50% crit chance from hide, you would literally melt spawns. This is all I ever wanted from my stalker. I would give up divine avalanche for lotus drops in a heartbeat.
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What is an appropriate cooldown for hidden status?
Was 10, now 8, should it be as low as 4?