PvP was intorduced in Issue 4.
Stalkers were introduced in Issue 6.
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Stalkers were there from the beginning, you just never saw them until issue 6...
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Originally Posted by DMystic
PvP was intorduced in Issue 4.
Stalkers were introduced in Issue 6. |
How do you figure that?
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They were too stealthy to see before issue 6... then their stealth was nerfed? |
Originally Posted by DMystic
How do you figure that?
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On PvP:
Believe it or not, PvP was actually fun in pretty much all zones (and occupied) Before IOs. As it stands, PvP has degenerated in to a sickening "fight club at the atlas statue" mentality where only those few who've managed to farm their ***** in to eighty billion set bonuses are even really competing.
See, back in those days, people yelled about stalkers for a month or so, then blueside figured out perception stacking, then redside figured out stealth stacking, then blueside figured out just a little more perception stacking, and all was once again right in the universe.
IOs were a FUN addition to PvE, however their set bonus inclusion in PvP ruined any semblance of accessibility and fun those zones ever had. The fact that the zones auto-exemped originally reinforced the idea that PvP was acessible as soon as you could pop in the zone. You'd get there, and you were on fairly even footing with anyone else who showed up that had levelled/specced a toon for PvP. Once the fifty million set bonus crowd hit the scene, most people could no longer afford the entry fee, and PvP became a ghost town.
And don't even get me started on the still unending "hiatus" of base raids. You know, the whole system player bases were designed around in the first place? I'm sure after twenty thousand incarnation system patches, twelve more issues of "go farm more this" and another expansion we might actually *think* about reintroducing structured PvP in a game about... the struggle of good *versus* evil.
The reinforcement of IOs with the "PvP Sets" was deliberate pandering to the current "Farm my way to PvP greatness." crowd that operates "arenas" in what were once fun open PvP zones. Never mind the actual arenas, which have been around for much longer and were DESIGNED for the purpose.
On Stalkers and teaming utility:
More/ Unlimited range on the team crit bonus.
I like the guy that suggested some sort of buff per target elimination, as a way of reinforcing stalkers as an efficient single target DPS niche AT.
Think of it like a brute's fury bar, only it goes down when you get attacked, and jumps up when you successfully hide-crit? Call it "precision" or "focus" or something. The important part is that it should prioritize *avoiding* aggro as a means to *deal more* damage, which pretty much encapsulates the stalker playstyle in a nutshell. Brutes gain damage through SMASH, Scrappers just do damage, and Stalkers gain damage through exploiting aggro mechanics.
I think it's a sufficient enough differentiation in mechanics to warrant a stalker damage buff that doesn't just make them "me too" Scrappers, and gives them some definite tactical and utility choices across their power sets.
In this situation a teamed stalker quickly ramps up enough damage to beat the tar out of any single target with remarkable speed, but only if he psyches himself up first by picking off anything the tanks are missing and avoiding mass aggro. In this situation, he's really using all the trash clears as a sort of "set up" for an utterly devastating AS and follow up attack chain on the big bad, which is entirely different playstyle wise than a scrapper (just hit everything as hard as you can) or a brute (just get everything to hit me, then hit everything as hard as I can.)
A solo stalker actually sees a direct benefit from the system by using all of his toys in the most efficient manner possible, mezzing and otherwise avoiding attacks to increase his overall efficiency rather than tanking damage in the manner of a scrapper. You'd actually be in a situation where ASing one mob, and then placating a second (and leaving it placated) ends up being a better tactical decision than just using the placate as crit-fuel.
It also makes the whole bag of stalker tricks, from mez to slow and everything in between far more important to the AT than raw tanking capability, resulting in a much different overall playstyle that meshes much better with what the AT is all about.
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You are correct sir.
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Originally Posted by Zem
They were too stealthy to see before issue 6... then their stealth was nerfed?
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I have to say this sums up my feelings about pvp and IO's pretty well. Back in the day before IO's and Wentworth's were created to "be an influence sink" (and ended up being pretty much the opposite) I used to enjoy more than a few zone rumbles with full teams of heroes and villains. Since then? Meh. The I-13 changes to PVP didn't really affect me one way or the other because I'd already long since checked out.
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Originally Posted by Shadestorm
On PvP:
Believe it or not, PvP was actually fun in pretty much all zones (and occupied) Before IOs. As it stands, PvP has degenerated in to a sickening "fight club at the atlas statue" mentality where only those few who've managed to farm their ***** in to eighty billion set bonuses are even really competing. See, back in those days, people yelled about stalkers for a month or so, then blueside figured out perception stacking, then redside figured out stealth stacking, then blueside figured out just a little more perception stacking, and all was once again right in the universe. IOs were a FUN addition to PvE, however their set bonus inclusion in PvP ruined any semblance of accessibility and fun those zones ever had. The fact that the zones auto-exemped originally reinforced the idea that PvP was acessible as soon as you could pop in the zone. You'd get there, and you were on fairly even footing with anyone else who showed up that had levelled/specced a toon for PvP. Once the fifty million set bonus crowd hit the scene, most people could no longer afford the entry fee, and PvP became a ghost town. And don't even get me started on the still unending "hiatus" of base raids. You know, the whole system player bases were designed around in the first place? I'm sure after twenty thousand incarnation system patches, twelve more issues of "go farm more this" and another expansion we might actually *think* about reintroducing structured PvP in a game about... the struggle of good *versus* evil. The reinforcement of IOs with the "PvP Sets" was deliberate pandering to the current "Farm my way to PvP greatness." crowd that operates "arenas" in what were once fun open PvP zones. Never mind the actual arenas, which have been around for much longer and were DESIGNED for the purpose. |
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What kills me is that since then, on the off chance I happen to actually run in to someone in those zones (because I go for temp powers or badges or something) People are actually confused and even a little hurt when you beat them down for a meteor fragment or nuke launch code or something.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I have to say this sums up my feelings about pvp and IO's pretty well. Back in the day before IO's and Wentworth's were created to "be an influence sink" (and ended up being pretty much the opposite) I used to enjoy more than a few zone rumbles with full teams of heroes and villains. Since then? Meh. The I-13 changes to PVP didn't really affect me one way or the other because I'd already long since checked out.
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My favorite would be "Lol, you're a stalker and you can't get your own nukes?"
Somehow the community at large seems to have forgotten that the whole point of those zones was an objective based reward for PvP, not a farm for TF or solo supplies.
Of course I could get my own nukes, that isn't the point. If I show up in a PvP zone, I'm damn sure not going to walk past another player that I could be attacking and gaining something from.
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I'm one of the guilty ones. The devs hoped that the rewards in those zones would encourage voluntary PvP; instead they basically lure targets into the zone. I don't find PvP enjoyable, at least against an experienced PvPer. Thus I just want to get my goodies and get out. If I get attacked, rather than thinking "What fun! This really spices things up and is a totally fair risk for the reward I'm after" I instead think "Argh! Can't this guy see that I don't want to PvP? Why does he have to grief me? Is it really any fun to kill someone who isn't mutually looking for a fight?" |
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
What kills me is that since then, on the off chance I happen to actually run in to someone in those zones (because I go for temp powers or badges or something) People are actually confused and even a little hurt when you beat them down for a meteor fragment or nuke launch code or something. [snip] Somehow the community at large seems to have forgotten that the whole point of those zones was an objective based reward for PvP
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Your point of view is totally legit, of course. Just explaining what goes through my head in that type of situation. You're 100% within the intent of the zone to attack me if you find me there.... but I'm still going to resent it.
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on the rare occasions I find myself drawn to pvp zones to achieve this or that goal I just leave after the first trip to the hospital. It's absolutely their prerogative to gank me, but that's not what I'm there for so I take off.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Your point of view is totally legit, of course. Just explaining what goes through my head in that type of situation. You're 100% within the intent of the zone to attack me if you find me there.... but I'm still going to resent it. |
I don't understand the people who wail and gnash their teeth at the horrible unfairness of anyone ever making them set foot in a PvP zone, but neither do I want to hang around and play target dummy for people who know what they're doing.
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My City Was Gone
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What the devs intend players to do and what players actually do are sometimes very different things. Just look what happened with the AE when that came out. |
Originally Posted by Shadestorm
Somehow the community at large seems to have forgotten that the whole point of those zones was an objective based reward for PvP, not a farm for TF or solo supplies.
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Same thing with PvE rewards in PvP zones. If they thought it would make PvPers out of people not interested in PvP... then that was just plain naive. It's more likely to reinforce the opposite when people with no interest in PvP get ganked while trying to obtain these rewards. It doesn't matter who is "right". It only matters what people think.
Personally *I* think it's bad form to complain about being killed in a PvP zone, but that doesn't change people's attitudes towards PvP one way or the other. Just because someone doesn't complain about it, doesn't mean they are enjoying themselves. It's like farming some boring farm in a loot-centric game. People do it to get the loot, not necessarily because they enjoy the dull repetition of waiting for the thing to drop one time in a thousand off some rare creature or other.
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I understand where you're all coming from, but let's take the shiny crystal back several issues to when the zones were populated because proper PvP didn't require a massive PvE grind for sets so you *could* PvP without getting faceplanted by somone who simply had more time to grind inf and merits.
In them days, people either went to the zone ready to fight for their goodies, or did the content without the goodies. Believe it or not, it can all pretty much be done without the "bonus" stuff from the PvP zones. My gut says Castle and crew agree, as per the recent removal of warburg nukes from CoP.
The only thing that even lets that sort of "I'm just there for my loot, I'll come back later when people are gone" mentality exist in the first place is that later there simply won't be anyone there.
Had IO set bonuses not been allowed in PvP in the first place, the zones would still be quite active, as they were before, and you'd show up in warburg ready to fight for those nukes because you wouldn't have any other options.
These days, I just shrug and say "better go get a nuke refill" back then I held on to those nukes and shivans like they were something precious, because they WERE something precious, and I earned them.
I've totally taken the thread off topic, and I'm sorry about that. I miss I6-7 era PvP zones. Not for the exploits or bugs, but for the fact that more than once I actually felt like a supervillain. People developed rivalries in those zones. Hell, there was even some RP banter between red/blue side back then on occasion.
I miss that. The interactivity of developing a nemesis, and fighting that nemesis. Not some pregenerated mob, but another player just as full of dumb *** cliche comic book lines as me.
Now maybe we should get back on topic (while I corrupt my warshade )
was thinking.
Same HP (1606)
Damage of Scrapper (1.125 i think it was)
Build up same as Scrapper
Damage cap from 500% to 600%
What about this stalker has base crit outside of hide of 10% when teams stalker gains 5% more crit (15% crit in teams) but teams give stalker some kind of AAO buff like 12.5% damage and 2.5% ToHit buff for each team member full team Stalker gains 87.5% damage buff and 17.5% ToHit Buff.
Just some thoughts
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Well except for the damage cap increase you've stated the main things I would like to see Stalkers get.|
Originally Posted by Dizzy_Dazzler
was thinking.
Same HP (1606) Damage of Scrapper (1.125 i think it was) Build up same as Scrapper Damage cap from 500% to 600% What about this stalker has base crit outside of hide of 10% when teams stalker gains 5% more crit (15% crit in teams) but teams give stalker some kind of AAO buff like 12.5% damage and 2.5% ToHit buff for each team member full team Stalker gains 87.5% damage buff and 17.5% ToHit Buff. Just some thoughts |
As for team buffs, I think what we have now is actually better than what your suggesting. Right now Stalkers gain a higher crit chance when teamed that scales up to 33% per attack.
Higher Crit is better than a damage buff, because crits aren't directly effected by the cap a 100 damage attack that crits deals 200 damage, a 100 damage attack with an 80% damage buff deals 180 damage. So for teams the higher crit is better.
Also if the Stalker damage mod where increased to the same as Scrappers a higher damage cap wouldn't be necessary as Stalkers and Scrappers will be doing the same basic damage, but Stalker Crits would put them ahead of the Scrapper in overall damage.
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You right the current team buff is beter was not thinking clearly i guess but would be nice to see that scrappers/brutes excel at AoE mobbing and Stalker the superior ST killer. Nothing wrong if a Scrapper can kill a boss in 10 secs and a Stalker does it in 6 or 7 secs (tough boss)
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Well except for the damage cap increase you've stated the main things I would like to see Stalkers get.
As for team buffs, I think what we have now is actually better than what your suggesting. Right now Stalkers gain a higher crit chance when teamed that scales up to 33% per attack. Higher Crit is better than a damage buff, because crits aren't directly effected by the cap a 100 damage attack that crits deals 200 damage, a 100 damage attack with an 80% damage buff deals 180 damage. So for teams the higher crit is better. Also if the Stalker damage mod where increased to the same as Scrappers a higher damage cap wouldn't be necessary as Stalkers and Scrappers will be doing the same basic damage, but Stalker Crits would put them ahead of the Scrapper in overall damage. |
Not that I'm against a buff - however unlikely it may be - but wow, necro much?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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What's wrong with necroing this thread? Stalkers need more love.
The thread wasn't dead, you just couldn't see it because it had Hide toggled on.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
The thread wasn't dead, you just couldn't see it because it had Hide toggled on.
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What they did with brutes that they never can reach scrapper damage i think stalkers need something like that that scrappers never reach or barely reach the stalker damage.
Because of Blaster HP they need scrappers damage scale 1.125 + something extra.
Or leave damage scale to 1.0% or doms damage scale 1.05% and buff placate recharge 90 secs and duration of 10 secs "Stalker gains 100% crit rate for those 10 secs"
I realize this thread is mostly dead and this horse has been beaten to death already, but just some idle musings:
* Remove the random critical chance from stalker attacks.
* Standardize all AoE's to be 50% crit chance (nerfing the 100% Burst/fireball, buffing the 30% spine burst.. nothing else comes to mind off the top of my head).
* Switch out which attack is lost from each Stalker primary for Assassin's Strike, to make it be a Stalker's Tier 2/1 power, depending on set. (This should, for example, remove thunder kick from Martial Arts, but remove Slash from Broadsword. Typically, the attack that is so low damage/quick recharging that most people skip it later on anyway)
* Add back in the power that the set's lost originally (Dragon's Tail, Whirling Sword, etc).
* Change the Stalker's inherent to be a gauranteed critical strike every fifth attack that hits an opponent. For AoE's, corresponding with the above, it's only 50% crit chance.
This allows a Stalker to be more precise with their attacks, typically will mean different ideal chains with Stalker primaries compared to Scrappers (leading to a somewhat different playstyle, where you plan out and 'combo' attacks rather than just fighting wildly and hoping for crits).
It should only last for a certain duration. Going 8? 10? seconds without attacking/adding to it--basically, going long enough to get hidden again--should reset it so you have to start over. The gauranteed crits from hide should still work, as should those with placate. But I think this is a much more Stalker-ish crit capacity than the 10% + 3%/teammate they currently have.
I tend to also think Stalker's should have their damage scale evened up with Scrappers (along with their buff mod for build up/etc), but that's nothing new.
I doubt it'll happen but I amuse myself with the concept anyway. Cheers, Stalkers.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.