Complex changes are just not going to happen.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Well, first of all, Castle *is* going to look at the Spines set for the one fact that the set's secondary effect(s) are out of whack. I wouldn't put it past him to rebalance the animations as well but overall, and after playing my spines stalker exclusively for a few weeks, the damage isn't that bad for the animation time.|
Originally Posted by Beelzy
I thought of that, however, one of the major problems with spines is the speed of the animations. So you would need to have faster animations (closer to claws) to make it feel like a knife fight... One of the major problems with spines is the animations times are so much slower than any other set, something that really is calling for a fix. Poisoned Knives would be a way to make a spines-like set that was a little less annoying to play...
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Secondly, if you're going for a realistic knife fight feel, then realistically, the damage would be crap. I mean, a knife isn't going to do nearly as much as a Ninjato (shorter katana from Ninja Blade) or even claws (which is 2 or more 'knives' per hand).
As is, the primary 'knife fight melee' attacks from spines would just be the tier 1 and 2 attack. Lunge, the tier 2, is already fast and the animation is appropriate. But the devs really need to fix Barb swipe. If it was fast with a DoT focus, then there's your 'knife fight' right there. The rest of the set is either flinging the knives or the over-the-top acrobatic attack (I'm actually a fan of that animation for Claws and Spines...you'll love it too once you Ripper 5 enemies with it for huge damage and Knockdown...it's probably the nicest attack in the set, IMO).
Lastly, I'm really really *REALLY* trying to be logical and economical with this. The last thing I want is for the devs to make *another* 'sharp handheld blade' set that everyone will go "-SIGH- Another sword set!?!?" Because I'd agree. We've got DB if you want to be all slashy, you've got BS if you just one one knife to slash with, we've got NB if you want to be all ninja, we've got Spines if you want to throw your knives alot and we've got Claws for if you want a mix of being ninja and throwing 'something'.
I can get behind a 'poisoned knife' animation for spines primarily because the feel of that set is *Strong* but Single Target damage-wise, it's rather low...which is all right...you're using a knife, afterall.
I cannot get behind requesting a 'poisoned knife' set because there's already too many danged options for hand-held single blades...Now a spear or scythe set? That's another story...
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Technically, what is spines secondary? I just kind of assume it doesn't have one as such other than the DOT and the powers feel pretty random. In my mind I kind of consider it our fire melee.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well, first of all, Castle *is* going to look at the Spines set for the one fact that the set's secondary effect(s) are out of whack. I wouldn't put it past him to rebalance the animations as well but overall, and after playing my spines stalker exclusively for a few weeks, the damage isn't that bad for the animation time.
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| I cannot get behind requesting a 'poisoned knife' set because there's already too many danged options for hand-held single blades...Now a spear or scythe set? That's another story... |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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-Recharge, -Movement, Immobilize (actually has small mags in every attack that is stackable to immobilize minions while powers like Ripper and Throw Spines just has a 50% chance for that small mag immobilize) and Toxic DoT.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Technically, what is spines secondary? I just kind of assume it doesn't have one as such other than the DOT and the powers feel pretty random. In my mind I kind of consider it our fire melee.
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That's particularly more secondary effects (that are spread across every power in the entire set) than other sets get. Some sets don't even get 1 secondary effect. Of course, this is on top of the extras like the range of its powers and the KD in Ripper.
Spines can't be our Fire melee because it doesn't do fire damage and it doesn't do good ST and AoE damage at the expense of mitigation. It can be said that Spines is more useful to kite with (I can still do it pretty effectively with slows and immobilize and range coupled together) to give myself breathing room until placate or Dark Regen recharges so that's the set's mitigation.
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| On this concept, what are you looking for that you can't get already with dual blades? just the poison? |
But what I can't get from Dual Blades to simulate a literal knife user is the ability to throw knives.
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Really my main is spines, please stop asking castle to look at spines.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
-Recharge, -Movement, Immobilize (actually has small mags in every attack that is stackable to immobilize minions while powers like Ripper and Throw Spines just has a 50% chance for that small mag immobilize) and Toxic DoT.
That's particularly more secondary effects (that are spread across every power in the entire set) than other sets get. Some sets don't even get 1 secondary effect. Of course, this is on top of the extras like the range of its powers and the KD in Ripper. Spines can't be our Fire melee because it doesn't do fire damage and it doesn't do good ST and AoE damage at the expense of mitigation. It can be said that Spines is more useful to kite with (I can still do it pretty effectively with slows and immobilize and range coupled together) to give myself breathing room until placate or Dark Regen recharges so that's the set's mitigation. Are you asking me? I already get what I'm looking for from a 'Poisoned Knife' set in Spines. But what I can't get from Dual Blades to simulate a literal knife user is the ability to throw knives. |
Spine/nin. I have put my heart into this toon. I would hate for it to be come something I don't enjoy anymore.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
he doesn't have to ask since Castle already said he would look at the set eventually.
Yeah, i'm simply relaying the info...like how people were talking about the adjustment to Shield Charge because of what Castle said in another thread about a mix-up in numbers.
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Huh, honestly, I only knew about the knock in ripper and the immob in impale. I'm going to have to pay more attention =)|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
-Recharge, -Movement, Immobilize (actually has small mags in every attack that is stackable to immobilize minions while powers like Ripper and Throw Spines just has a 50% chance for that small mag immobilize) and Toxic DoT.
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| That's particularly more secondary effects (that are spread across every power in the entire set) than other sets get. Some sets don't even get 1 secondary effect. Of course, this is on top of the extras like the range of its powers and the KD in Ripper. |
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| Spines can't be our Fire melee because it doesn't do fire damage and it doesn't do good ST and AoE damage at the expense of mitigation. |
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| But what I can't get from Dual Blades to simulate a literal knife user is the ability to throw knives. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Use Spine Burst then Throw Spines and watch the enemies *slowly* run around like they're on portable caltrops while being ticked down by the Toxic DoT. I'm not saying the set has great mitigation, but it is far more mitigation than Fire gets.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
But I see this as a potential disadvantage. The focus of dark causing -acc in every attack means it is reliable. You can build around it safely. Immobilize and slow don't actually provide significant mitigation (best you can do it pin someone down and break line of sight).
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And I wouldn't even say Dark Melee's -ToHit is all that reliable considering it's all (or mostly) Single Target. Yeah, that enemy you're wailing on isn't hitting you very often but everything else around you will.
Also, don't forget about range. Being able to shoot stuff offers utility as well.
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| I feel it does mediocre single, mediocre aoe at the expense of mitigation. It sure feels like it doesn't have much mitigation. Though I do appreciate ripper. |
Man, I think I need to log on my Stalker some more. Once I snag him a Theft of Essence Proc, it'll cover his only real weakness ^^
First of all, the difference between sword and knife damage would not be that great because there is a qualitative difference. With sword it is how much, with knives it is where...
Where a poisoned knives set would differ is that it would be more single target focused than spines, and faster, it would offer a bladed weapon with damage other than lethal, and it would offer both decent melee and ranged attacks. Also, think about what could be done for the AS animation...
I understand that the DPA in spines is on par with other sets, it is just that, especially in the early levels, a missed attack costs you so much time in one place. 2.43s for the first tier attack while most attacks are under one second? 1.63s for the tier two?
The numbers are even longer than Broadsword...
Now, that effects the secondary effects, which would offer reliable mitigation if they were on reasonable animation times allowing a reasonable degree of stacking. But, they are not. Meaning that what should be a strong mitigation set, keeping enemies within melee range while decreasing their attack rate, ends up being lackluster.
My first toon was spines. I really do like spines, but it is not on par with other sets in many ways... unless you're a farmer...
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So you're saying it's not the size of the blade, but how you use it? |
Originally Posted by Beelzy
First of all, the difference between sword and knife damage would not be that great because there is a qualitative difference. With sword it is how much, with knives it is where...
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Originally Posted by Beelzy
Also, think about what could be done for the AS animation...
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In any case, I like the idea of using Spines as a base for twin poisoned knives - and really, other than the PBAoEs (Spine Burst and Quills for Scrappers) the animations all could fit - but I don't know if the customization would be able to do it. IIRC all of the current Spines customizations have the same anchor points for the spines, they just look different at the same spot - I could be wrong on that, though.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Why not just copy the "using the asian-style squat toilet" animation that dark armor and quite a few other sets get?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I can see it now... Piercing Rounds' animation where instead of guns, you throw both knives spinning up in the air, catch them on the way down, and stab the person. Because something has to fill that time...
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I've never see this happen. I throw spines and watch them all turn on me and shoot. Never seen them try to run.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Use Spine Burst then Throw Spines and watch the enemies *slowly* run around like they're on portable caltrops while being ticked down by the Toxic DoT. I'm not saying the set has great mitigation, but it is far more mitigation than Fire gets.
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I respecced out of spineburst. I died during the animation before the attack went off too often. by the 11th time in one mission I just said f-it, and poof, gone. I dunno the numbers, but with 78% damage boost, it was just pissing people off without killing anything. Ripper, impale, throw, with lunge to fill the gaps worked better for me.
I keep thinking about looking at the math behind it, but then I remember how often I would start using it, the whole spawn would aggro at the beginning of the attack animation before the damage was dealt, kill me, and then not take any significant damage, sometimes none at all. F-that. seriously.
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| I guess it's all just opinion of the user. IMO, Spines is pretty poor for ST, not even mediocre. My Spines stalker has to run missions with no bosses cause he uses too much endurance to defeat them...that's pretty blasphemous for a Stalker...but he makes up for it by running x3 or x4 where all my other stalkers have to run x1 or x2. |
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| Man, I think I need to log on my Stalker some more. Once I snag him a Theft of Essence Proc, it'll cover his only real weakness ^^ |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I guess that is just one power that favors Dark Armor than it does the other powersets. I guess if you drop some caltrops then move into Spine Burst, perhaps. But it's actually quite good when paired with DA. You're already trying to get some of the minions to huddle around you for Dark Regen and I'd advocate using CoF over OG for 2 reasons:|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I've never see this happen. I throw spines and watch them all turn on me and shoot. Never seen them try to run.
I respecced out of spineburst. I died during the animation before the attack went off too often. by the 11th time in one mission I just said f-it, and poof, gone. I dunno the numbers, but with 78% damage boost, it was just pissing people off without killing anything. Ripper, impale, throw, with lunge to fill the gaps worked better for me. I keep thinking about looking at the math behind it, but then I remember how often I would start using it, the whole spawn would aggro at the beginning of the attack animation before the damage was dealt, kill me, and then not take any significant damage, sometimes none at all. F-that. seriously. |
-If you build for defense, it helps a little
-Enemies get 'stuck' to eachother thanks to the fear whereas they tend to wobble away while stunned
If you're 'power building' then it's just another spot to put more procs in. I've got at least 1 in each AoE which adds up.
But maybe what I'm seeing in the 'portable caltrops' is a combo of Cloak of Fear and the slows/toxic DoT. Enemies just tend to slowly try to close in or slowly try to run away (or shaking in their boots).
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Mine runs on +1x3, but can do +2x4 if it is against council =). The AoE is really, not good to me, but I leverage AS, Impale, and Ripper for single-target brutality. Villain merits make those very easy to get. I'll have one for my dark dark later tomorrow if I get enough time to play =) |
And yeah, I've got him over 100 reward merits but spent all my inf on 2 Eradication quads (those buggers are not cheap but they're worth it ^^) so when I make myself 80 mill, that'll be the 1st thing he goes after.
But yeah, play Dark Armor for Stalkers! It's awesome if you build right
My next experiment is a KM/EA stalker who leverages Repulse after his opener. Only lvl 8 so far...
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In less dientendric turn of phrase, yes...|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
So you're saying it's not the size of the blade, but how you use it?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I can see it now... Piercing Rounds' animation where instead of guns, you throw both knives spinning up in the air, catch them on the way down, and stab the person. Because something has to fill that time...
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
In any case, I like the idea of using Spines as a base for twin poisoned knives - and really, other than the PBAoEs (Spine Burst and Quills for Scrappers) the animations all could fit - but I don't know if the customization would be able to do it. IIRC all of the current Spines customizations have the same anchor points for the spines, they just look different at the same spot - I could be wrong on that, though.
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Well, with a new set, it'd most likely need a unique mechanic which would require extensive testing and coding whereas just adding the animations to a current set would just need to test if the animations played properly.|
Originally Posted by Beelzy
but the question is whether it would be a better use of time to fit the graphix to a current set or to make a new set with unique flavor for Stalkers...
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As for a unique flavor set with Stalkers in mind? Death Scythe.
If they're going to sink resources into a new unique set, I want something with a whole new flavor too. And when you need to split an 11ft tall demon in twain or rip a huge clockwork monolith in half, a pair of knives just won't do it
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Scythe would be nice, but not very silent... when you want to cut a single wire so that you can rewire the clockwork monolith to do your bidding, knives. When you want to take down a demon quickly and silently, knives. When you're a brute, you want a scythe, when you're a stalker, you want a knife...|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well, with a new set, it'd most likely need a unique mechanic which would require extensive testing and coding whereas just adding the animations to a current set would just need to test if the animations played properly.
As for a unique flavor set with Stalkers in mind? Death Scythe. If they're going to sink resources into a new unique set, I want something with a whole new flavor too. And when you need to split an 11ft tall demon in twain or rip a huge clockwork monolith in half, a pair of knives just won't do it |
I'd also be interested in either a kyoketsushoge (knife on a chain), or a kusarigama (sickle on a chain). Of course the jiujiebian (nine section whip, occasionally used with a dagger end) is one of my preferred concealed weapons... I've often thought of learning the Urumi (whip sword), but one of the most intriguing, but very difficult to put into this kind of medium, would be the chindai (a cloth about the size of a towel used as a weapon).
If they want something outside of the weapons field, maybe sonic melee? (Assassin's Strike=The Silencer)
Alright. Back away from dreams of Stalker Primaries that may never be...
On the table,
1) Spines fix (it works fine as a Scrapper farming set, but is lackluster for Stalkers, although overall the activation times are a problem for all)
2) AS fix (activation times (from 2.67s to 3.67s with identical damage across sets seems problematic) (Interrupt timer (either decreasing it or making it less sensitive to minor movements, or both)
3) BU fix (activation times (from 0.73 to 1.93 with identical buffs across sets seems problematic) (should be at least on par with Scrappers, probably higher since we are the burst damage class)
4) Hide fix (decreasing the hide timer to 4-5s)
Although we all enjoy talking about possible new primary sets, the sets won't be worth a damn if Stalkers as a whole do not receive some attention...
Scythe would work...I mean for crying out loud we have broad sword! LOL
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Not to mention the silentest of assassins is Death himself. He ain't no Brute, that's for sure.|
Originally Posted by Negate
Scythe would work...I mean for crying out loud we have broad sword!
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Originally Posted by Beelzy
When you're a brute, you want a scythe, when you're a stalker, you want a knife...
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-Is the stalker himself not the master of stealth? Can he not hide a cannon in a grade school if he wanted? It's not the weapon, it's the wielder that is perfect for stealth. Realistically, yeah a man is going to want a concealable weapon to make killings go unnoticed...but realistically, a man can't turn himself 100% invisible.
-Killing silently is definitely cool. But most of the foes in this game refuse to die in one clean silent stroke of a knife. Dangerous meta-humans with swaths of invulnerability and robotic prosthetics out the wahzoo being silenced by a humble knife is awesome...but killing whole-sale by splitting them in half with one clean strike with a humongous blade is another flavor of awesome.
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| Although we all enjoy talking about possible new primary sets, the sets won't be worth a damn if Stalkers as a whole do not receive some attention... |
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So far it's my favorite. My top two stalkers are my dark/dark/soul and spines/nin.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But yeah, play Dark Armor for Stalkers! It's awesome if you build right
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I really don't like spines, but I love dark/dark. /nin is ok, I just wish I'd had a concept that fit better with a power other than spines. And I like the character too much to abandon or reroll him int something else. Ah well.
And I am with you 100% on fear over stun. Even if they do run, they only run a few second before the cower kicks in and they politely wait for you to walk up and AS them. =)
All the time people were saying they didn't like the auras because they break hide and I'm thinking, just turn-em on while you're scrapping. Now I get the best of both worlds.
Just need to fix her build. Egads it sucks. Still, if I can hold down x6 spawns when the rest of the team wipes, including teleporting some to safety and using the day-job rez WHILE still fighting, it says somethign about dark armor's sturdiness. heh. I can't wait to see what she performs like when I get her defense up over 15% and respec into taking murky cloud.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I know, I was just trying to bring the thread back on topic rather than going down the path of a gossip thread, which it was kind of becoming...|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Don't go there. We've already been down this road. Stalkers are, indeed, worth a damn. Yes, they could use some tweeks but that doesn't stop what they do from being great. Even the minor adjustments you say are on the table would only do [_____] this much to improve them.
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Yes, they are minor adjustments, but they are essential.
btw... those dangerous humans with swaths of invulnerability and robotic prostheses... you just need to know where to cut...
Of course, the game isn't that realistic in ranges. You have a range, and anything within that range gets the same tohit and the same damage. I remember playing SWG back in the day where rifles were useless in close, short and medium range, but godlike from long range. Weapons have an optimal range, get inside that and they're useless. A pistol v a knife at 10 yards, the pistol will win. A pistol v a knife at 10 inches and the pistoleer is toast.
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I have a pair of stalkers that I built for theme to take advantage of the the fantastic Ninjitsu Secondary:| 1) Spines fix (it works fine as a Scrapper farming set, but is lackluster for Stalkers, although overall the activation times are a problem for all) |
Spines/Ninjitsu w/Shadow Meld
Elec/Ninjitsu w/Mu bolts and Ball Lightning.
Both min-maxxed with Perma hasten, Softcapped melee/Ranged w/40% AoE,
Highly leveraging the strengths of Ninjitsu (Caltrops, the heal, Blinding Powder). Pretty much Identical Set bonuses, I made them to be twins.
By far the Spines/Ninjitsu outperforms the Elec/ninjitsu in kill speed. I play them both at +1 x8, and while they both just tear through content, the spines is faster, and safer. The elec has the nice burst, but overtime the spines pulls far ahead. Heck at my level of recharge I practially have Throw Spines as an attack chain, and definately can alternate Throw+Burst.
EDIT: I should also mention that the spines plays far better exemplary down than the Ekec.
I am of the opinion that Stalkers are underperformers on teams. Solo they are fine, and there are outliers like Spines (and Elec) that hold their own in team performance.
Spines is not lackluster, heck its one of the two primaries I recommend to people who want to bother with the negatives of stalkers (Paired with Ninjitsu of course).
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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What did you do to get capped all around? So far I'm stuck in the 30s. Lots of options to go higher, but none I really like. So curious to know what worked for you.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I have a pair of stalkers that I built for theme to take advantage of the the fantastic Ninjitsu Secondary:
Spines/Ninjitsu w/Shadow Meld Elec/Ninjitsu w/Mu bolts and Ball Lightning. Both min-maxxed with Perma hasten, Softcapped melee/Ranged w/40% AoE, Highly leveraging the strengths of Ninjitsu (Caltrops, the heal, Blinding Powder). Pretty much Identical Set bonuses, I made them to be twins. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Spines Stalker is probably the more team-friendly Stalker. Its weakness is covered by Assassin Strike.
If you build right, BU + Throw Spine as battle opener is good enough aoe damage. You really don't need that many aoe attack. I took Spine Burst and even Ball of Lightning 'cause my Spine/EA Stalker isn't IOed. The only thing I put in him at lvl 50 is Chance for Knockdown from purple set in Throw Spines. As a battle opener, it is beautiful to see the foes get knockdown 25% of the time. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Hell, if they just gave you the custom option to do away with the body spines, I'd say it was close enough to a 'Poisoned Knives' set to satisfy my current Spines/DA concept which is the wielding and throwing of blades.