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Aren't there ways to get around it currently with the new technology the devs have access to?
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Originally Posted by DMystic
I agree it's weird. I would also like to blame PvP balance as the reason for why we can't have nice things.
You know since the system can only identify targets on hit and act accordingly, which is probably why we have this temp power situation. Easiest way to get the effect,not draw agro and not interfere with PvP. |
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PVP doesn't matter in this game.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
I agree it's weird. I would also like to blame PvP balance as the reason for why we can't have nice things.
You know since the system can only identify targets on hit and act accordingly, which is probably why we have this temp power situation. Easiest way to get the effect,not draw agro and not interfere with PvP. |
I agree PvP is irrelevant, however some older changes were made with PvP in mind.
I don't know if the new tech is helpful for this situation.
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The only new tech I am aware of is the ability to tag power effects as "only PvP" or "only PvE". So they can change the effect of a power *after* it hits, but I don't think any of the other properties of a power can be different between the two. Animation time. Attack type. Interrupt duration. etc. At least I don't know of any powers where these kinds of things ARE different between the two environments.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
I agree PvP is irrelevant, however some older changes were made with PvP in mind.
I don't know if the new tech is helpful for this situation. |
And PvP isn't irrelevant as long as the devs care about it and refuse to make PvE changes that would break PvP. Whatever anyone else may think.
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Well, Corruptor's Pain Domination -> Soothing Aura is a toggle heal. However, in PvP it works like its Mastermind counterpart Suppress Pain and buffs regen instead so that it does not interfere with DR applied to healing. It's the only example I can think of but it is an example of a power outright working differently in PvP.
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It still has the same AoE size, animation time, recharge, endurance cost, and general mechanics (autohit, 15' ally-targeting PBAoE that pulses once every 4 seconds). Those currently cannot be adjusted based on environment (PvE map vs PvP map), but the specific effects that the power does when it triggers can be (this is how the damages are separated - it's just another effect with a flag to only work in a certain circumstance, much like criticals / containment / scourge).|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Well, Corruptor's Pain Domination -> Soothing Aura is a toggle heal. However, in PvP it works like its Mastermind counterpart Suppress Pain and buffs regen instead so that it does not interfere with DR applied to healing. It's the only example I can think of but it is an example of a power outright working differently in PvP.
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It's also certainly not the only power that applies different effects, either - look at any mez protection power.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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People that think Stalkers are the reason PvP is imbalanced make me giggle.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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So what do you think is the reason for them being imbalanced?|
Originally Posted by macskull
People that think Stalkers are the reason PvP is imbalanced make me giggle.
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I'm not trying to start up anything btw, I just want to here you're input.
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If I'm not mistaken, isn't there also a new formula for damage in pvp that bases a power's activation time... wait, lemme check the 'Wiki...|
Originally Posted by Zem
The only new tech I am aware of is the ability to tag power effects as "only PvP" or "only PvE". So they can change the effect of a power *after* it hits, but I don't think any of the other properties of a power can be different between the two. Animation time. Attack type. Interrupt duration. etc. At least I don't know of any powers where these kinds of things ARE different between the two environments.
And PvP isn't irrelevant as long as the devs care about it and refuse to make PvE changes that would break PvP. Whatever anyone else may think. |
Here, from Paragon Wiki:
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Damage In PvP, attack powers follow new guidelines regarding the relative amounts of damage done between different attacks within a power set, between different power sets for the same AT, and between different ATs. From Castle: Powers now calculate damage based on their activation time, instead of their recharge. (This difference is sometimes striking. Attacks with unusually long activation times, like Flurry and Propel, deal two to three times their PvE damage, or more, when used against other players. AoE powers generally do far less damage than single-target ones.) Lower activation time powers get a slight bonus to damage, due to chaining low damage powers being difficult in PvP. Longer recharge time powers also get a slight damage bonus, so higher level powers with long recharge times deal extra damage. Damage has been adjusted for all ATs, reducing the damage gap between each AT. |
In fact, if you want to know what doesn't change between pvp and pve, that is also on that page in the link:
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Effects that Don't Change Some power characteristics cannot be varied by the devs. You can safely expect these characteristics to stay the same between PvP and PvE: Endurance Cost (although crashes and ongoing per-target losses can vary, since they are not costs) Activation Time Recharge Time Interrupt Time Inherent Accuracy Multiplier (although effects can have individual ToHit modifiers, or be autohit in PvE but not in PvP) Attack Type Tags Range AoE type and size max # of AoE targets |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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This game has some serious pvp issues that I can't explain! lol I don't like pvp fights that last only 10s. Whenever I see a "buffed" Blaster charging me, I know I am pretty much dead.|
Originally Posted by Negate
So what do you think is the reason for them being imbalanced?
I'm not trying to start up anything btw, I just want to here you're input. |
Blaster > Stalker in PvP by a pretty large amount IMO. Stalker is still mostly melee.
High level Tanker is almost un-killable.
But hey, I don't pvp much in this game and my builds are not really pvp-specific (in other games I do). I've only used some toons like Necro/Trap (which does ok in Siren Call as long as I don't get Teleported), Fortunata in RV (she totally sucks in that zone, defense means nothing) and Claw Stalker in RV (I can't kill s@#$).
Last time I brought my Fort to RV, I see Tanks doing more range damage than I do with Hurl and my hold lasts like 3s.... LOL
I don't know what they did in PvP but I think there's nothing they can do to make it fun for me. This game's mechanism is just not very pvp friendly. I love/hate tp foe. When my mastermind gets tped, I know it's game over. There's only so many Orange I can eat.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well, one thing I can think of is Assassin Strike animation. I think the dev won't reduce the activation time is because pvp balance? I am guessing.
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Originally Posted by Negate
So what do you think is the reason for them being imbalanced?
I'm not trying to start up anything btw, I just want to here you're input. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well, in fairness a stealth class in any MMORPG is seen as causing balance problems. Most of the time it is really driven by perceptions that are greater than reality, as this applies to PVE, and PVP.
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Originally Posted by macskull
People that think Stalkers are the reason PvP is imbalanced make me giggle.
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That would be only one reason. The other is that they'd have to rework all the animations. And it's also probably true that they don't think a power that can do scale 7 damage (from Hide) *should* be fast, PvP or no.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Well, one thing I can think of is Assassin Strike animation. I think the dev won't reduce the activation time is because pvp balance? I am guessing.
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This is true too. I played a lot of Warhammer Online PvP and people were bit!@#$ about Witch Elves pwning because she can stealth and does tons of damage in a short amount of time. Well, that is the ONLY thing she is good for. Once she reveals herself, she is just as easy to kill as any "mage-type" of class. |
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Well, in fairness a stealth class in any MMORPG is seen as causing balance problems. Most of the time it is really driven by perceptions that are greater than reality, as this applies to PVE, and PVP.
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The only stealth class that I've experienced with that does pretty good in both PvE and PvP is Burglar from Lord of the Ring Online. Burglar can trigger Maneuvership Team attack/heal once in 5mins. If you are on a big team, that Team Attack does amazingly amount of damage so it's not a bad idea to bring a Burg along in a Raid. I have limited experience in LoTR though. And I got pwzned so bad in PvP by Burg but I was low level.. their stun lock is nasty.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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If the dev have no problem giving a power that can boost the team's damage to almost max with only 60s base recharge (yes, I am looking at you Fulcrum Shift), then I am sure they have no problem reducing Assassin Strike's activation time or at least get rid of the interrupt. :P
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Originally Posted by Zem
That would be only one reason. The other is that they'd have to rework all the animations. And it's also probably true that they don't think a power that can do scale 7 damage (from Hide) *should* be fast, PvP or no.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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It depends on how they did it. If they simply smoothed out the animation by removing the "hang time" when the weapon/fist is drawn back I'm unsure how much work it would be vise making new animations - but I'm suspecting not nearly as much. This was done recently with one of the melee sets - I believe it was Martial Arts? - so that's nine powers they had to "smooth." There are what? 11 powers that would need this treatment (One AS per powerset and the extra in MA), so it's not out something that's so far beyond the norm that it won't happen.|
Originally Posted by Zem
That would be only one reason. The other is that they'd have to rework all the animations. And it's also probably true that they don't think a power that can do scale 7 damage (from Hide) *should* be fast, PvP or no.
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And if they did that, then the pvp damage of the AS would come down due to the effect shorter animations now have on damage in pvp, so the only real issue there is how much the stalker community would hate having their AS damage reduced in pvp (but then how many skilled stalkers use AS in pvp? ::shrug:: I don't know).
Then again, lengthening the recharge time could bring the damage back up slightly, due to the damage bonus given to long recharging powers in pvp.
So it's not so binary as "they won't change the animation because it would bork pvp." It's a matter of shifting the numbers in the balance equation. The only thing that would really benefit stalkers should something like this happen would be this: decreasing the animation decreases the interrupt time.
Personally, I'm not completely convinced that it would be a big enough change to make the effort worth it, but there are options.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Snipes are probably worse off than AS, and I don't think it has anything to do with PVP. Simply put, the vision of the past for this game is somewhat still in place. Castle made some tweaks to it, but I don't think he is finished putting his spin on it.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Well, one thing I can think of is Assassin Strike animation. I think the dev won't reduce the activation time is because pvp balance? I am guessing.
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This presumes the devs are willing to make other powers as good as Fulcrum Shift. Personally, I doubt it. Nerfing Fulcrum Shift would probably make the DOOM that followed E.D. look like a polite disagreement. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
If the dev have no problem giving a power that can boost the team's damage to almost max with only 60s base recharge (yes, I am looking at you Fulcrum Shift), then I am sure they have no problem reducing Assassin Strike's activation time or at least get rid of the interrupt. :P
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So they're not doing that. But it doesn't mean they are going to raise everything else to that level.
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Recommendations for interior equity:
Reduce all AS times to be in line with Kinetic Melee.
Reduce all BU times to be in line with Claws and Spines.
Recommendations for rationality:
Make demoralize fire whether the target dies or not.
Recommendations for improved team attractiveness:
Moralize buff activated on any crit from hidden.
Recommendations for more stealthiness:
Decrease the cooldown on hidden status to 4s.
Eliminate the cooldown if stalker has zero aggro.
Decrease threat level when hidden (Illusion Control Superior Invisibility brings troller threat level to 0%)
Recommendations for increased burst damage:
Increase the BU multiplier.
Increase the crit multiplier.
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People who think stalkers are for PvE make me giggle |
Originally Posted by macskull
People that think Stalkers are the reason PvP is imbalanced make me giggle.
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Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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Well, we tried... |
Originally Posted by Donna_
People who think stalkers are for PvE make me giggle
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well most of us would like to be for PvE. I Also think we'll keep trying until Stalkers are for PvE.
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Originally Posted by Donna_
People who think stalkers are for PvE make me giggle
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When Stalker was introduced, was there PvP?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Yes
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
I agree it's weird. I would also like to blame PvP balance as the reason for why we can't have nice things.
You know since the system can only identify targets on hit and act accordingly, which is probably why we have this temp power situation. Easiest way to get the effect,not draw agro and not interfere with PvP.