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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
(after issue 19 Smoke Flash too, can't wait).
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Hold up - did I miss something AGAIN? What are they doing to Smoke Flash in I19?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Fitness Pool is becoming inherant to all characters.
That opens up 3 more powerselections for my ninja twins, 1 of which will be smokeflash.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Nothing. Just Fitness becomes inherent so you have more rooms to take powers like Smoke Flash. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Hold up - did I miss something AGAIN? What are they doing to Smoke Flash in I19?
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I'll definitely take Recall Friend for sure. Very useful on stalker.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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It depends what sets you're using, really. The only stalker I have soft capped is my EM/EA stalker and it was pretty easy, cheap and he managed it by the mid-30s. Actually, I take that back, he still isn't soft-capped to negative energy...that's like 38% or so. And psi has to rely on the 20-ish% to AoE and Ranged he happens to have >_>.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
What did you do to get capped all around? So far I'm stuck in the 30s. Lots of options to go higher, but none I really like. So curious to know what worked for you.
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But it really depends what sets and powers (and inf) you're working with. The stun sets helped mine a good deal as well as Kinetic Combat sets. Plus, running Weave (and Tough) isn't hard with Energy Drain on the side.
Okay here's an idea I don't think I've seen yet - non-stacking DoTs.
Give stalkers some method of applying a DoT with good damage and moderate duration to a target. It should be easy to apply multiple times, but multiple stacks on a single target would be redundant.
Advantages:
* Stalker ST DPS would increase slightly, ideally just enough to bring them up to par with scrappers
* Stalkers would gain faux-AoE damage. It would still be (appropriately) weaker than scrapper/brute AoE as it would require some setup time to apply to each mob, but it would be something.
* Stalkers would gain a mostly unique, not-too-gimmicky, and always available mechanic to set them apart from the other melee classes.
* Hit-and-run would be more viable for people who like that sort of thing, I guess.
* Adds viability (though admittedly not a lot due to the setup time) even in the "every minion/lieutenant dies in three seconds" situation, because such a team will be fighting spawns with multiple bosses.
* Adds delicious stalker-y flavor. NB/BS get bleed effects, DB gets poisons, DarkM gets lingering shadows, ElecM gets... something, I dunno.
The main problems would be in the implementation, and are twofold:
* How does the DoT get delivered? It could be added to every stalker's t1, but that would force stalkers into yet another mandatory power pick, which the AT really doesn't need. Or you could have every ST attack apply the DoT while under the effects of BU, but that ties the stalker's performance to BU even more than it already is, which again isn't good. Although, it could make up for BU's inferior (to scrappers) buff numbers when placate/AS isn't available.
* Is it feasible technically? I don't think there are any non-stacking DoTs in the game, and making the DoT a granted power a la bruising or demoralize wouldn't work because then the damage wouldn't be affected by the purple patch, which would be bad.
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Wait... WHAT?!|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Nothing. Just Fitness becomes inherent so you have more rooms to take powers like Smoke Flash.
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*Goes off to look for other signs of the apocalypse*
My staminaless Ice/Fire blapper and Dark/Fire scrapper are going to become even more awesome... And... And...
Woah.
...
Wow.
*Goes off mumbling and stumbling along the way*
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Is there a source post for the i19 Fitness pool becoming innate talk?
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unless smoke flash is turned into an auto-hit like the widows, it'll still be skippable.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Nothing. Just Fitness becomes inherent so you have more rooms to take powers like Smoke Flash.
I'll definitely take Recall Friend for sure. Very useful on stalker. |
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Spines/nin. Pools: speed (just haste), fitness, leaping, Patron: Soul
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
It depends what sets you're using, really. The only stalker I have soft capped is my EM/EA stalker and it was pretty easy, cheap and he managed it by the mid-30s. Actually, I take that back, he still isn't soft-capped to negative energy...that's like 38% or so. And psi has to rely on the 20-ish% to AoE and Ranged he happens to have >_>.
But it really depends what sets and powers (and inf) you're working with. The stun sets helped mine a good deal as well as Kinetic Combat sets. Plus, running Weave (and Tough) isn't hard with Energy Drain on the side. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Not aoe. You still have to hit each one individually.|
Originally Posted by Spruce
* Stalkers would gain faux-AoE damage. It would still be (appropriately) weaker than scrapper/brute AoE as it would require some setup time to apply to each mob, but it would be something.
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| * Stalkers would gain a mostly unique, not-too-gimmicky, and always available mechanic to set them apart from the other melee classes. |
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| * Hit-and-run would be more viable for people who like that sort of thing, I guess. |
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| * Adds viability (though admittedly not a lot due to the setup time) even in the "every minion/lieutenant dies in three seconds" situation, because such a team will be fighting spawns with multiple bosses. |
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| * Adds delicious stalker-y flavor. NB/BS get bleed effects, DB gets poisons, DarkM gets lingering shadows, ElecM gets... something, I dunno. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Damage ticks don't prevent you from regaining hidden status, but they do keep mobs aggroed on you even if you Placate them.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Actually, I think less viable since the damage ticks might prevent you from regaining hidden status. Not sure on that though.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Ooh, hadn't thought of that. You could get around it if you could find a way to flag the DoT portion as non-aggro-inducing, by giving it to a pseudopet or something (not sure if that's how pseudopets work, but whatever).
Implementation issues aside, the mechanic would allow stalker DPS to scale up as the number of mobs in a spawn increases, just as it does for other ATs that have strong AoE attacks. That's what I meant by faux-AoE.
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Pseudopets redirect all their aggro to their creator. Don't believe me? Drop Caltrops under a mob. They will shoot you.
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Originally Posted by Spruce
Ooh, hadn't thought of that. You could get around it if you could find a way to flag the DoT portion as non-aggro-inducing, by giving it to a pseudopet or something (not sure if that's how pseudopets work, but whatever).
Implementation issues aside, the mechanic would allow stalker DPS to scale up as the number of mobs in a spawn increases, just as it does for other ATs that have strong AoE attacks. That's what I meant by faux-AoE. |
Yes, but if the pseudopet's power is flagged as non-aggro-inducing, there won't be any aggro to redirect.
I think.
Despite Test Rat's objections, what I feel defines Stalkers as a separate melee rather than a redundant melee is not only stealth, but ST damage.
I understand that teams tend to devolve into spin teams (a term I'm not sure is used in this MMO, but is appropriate) where everyone jumps in the middle and slams their AoEs.
Stalkers need to be more surgical, taking down specific targets and then going back into hiding.
Therefore, the best way to keep the Stalker feel would probably be to decrease the time to hide, make Placate an AoE, increase the Stalker BU so that it matches Scrappers and possibly push up Stalkers overall or critical damage a little.
I may have overlooked this answer, but does anyone know if /Dark stalkers with Oppressive Gloom toggled on can regain Hide status while the power is actively affecting a group?
If so, does placate auto-suppress the effect of the power?
I'm curious about the way these toggles work for stalkers and I don't know anyone with a /Dark stalker to comment.
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When you think about it, shouldn't you be thanking us for making mistakes? Veridian Dynamics. We're sorry. You're welcome.
You cannot regain hidden status while Oppressive Gloom or Cloak of Fear or Repulse is affecting targets because every time those powers pulse, it's registered as an offensive action and resets the timer that unsuppresses hide. So while the powers pulse, hit or miss, will keep you out of hide. If no foes are in range of the effect, then then no offensive action is registered.
When you use placate, it will put you in 'Hidden' status and the toggle will auto suppress. The only issue I've run into when using placate with these toggles is if I placate someone close, switch targets and hit something else, the toggle will unsuppress after the hit and pulse. This will hit the placated target as well which will turn to attack immediately. Of course, if you are hit some time after the placate, it will also nullify hidden and the placated target will do the same.
A work around that issue is to simply turn the toggle off while placate is animating. So when you hit (or in the case you're knocked out of hidden), the target will stay placated.
Thanks for the info, Leo.
I've honestly been trying to get into stalkers, but the only thing that can keep me interested in leveling a stalker over a Scrapper is to find unique circumstances that make being a stalker more rewarding than using a similar set on an AT with great HP potential and AoE damage (overall).
I like the idea of toggling Cloak of Fear combined with an Assassin's Strike to really make an entrance. Even Repulse has entertained me as a potential Panic Button power that is unique for a melee character. I'm not sure if my love of stalkers will rival its biggest fans, but I will continue to try to embrace the AT.
Veridian Dynamics. Mistakes. We all make them. But sometimes mistakes lead to great discoveries. Mistakes are how we learn and grow... so we can do amazing things.
When you think about it, shouldn't you be thanking us for making mistakes? Veridian Dynamics. We're sorry. You're welcome.
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Actually, I am making a Scrapper MA now and Stalker still solos better and does better on a small team. |
Originally Posted by Mind_Over_Matter
Thanks for the info, Leo.
I've honestly been trying to get into stalkers, but the only thing that can keep me interested in leveling a stalker over a Scrapper is to find unique circumstances that make being a stalker more rewarding than using a similar set on an AT with great HP potential and AoE damage (overall). I like the idea of toggling Cloak of Fear combined with an Assassin's Strike to really make an entrance. Even Repulse has entertained me as a potential Panic Button power that is unique for a melee character. I'm not sure if my love of stalkers will rival its biggest fans, but I will continue to try to embrace the AT. |
I think the main difference is once you include set bonuses, Scrapper's "less burst damage" becomes less of an issue because Scrapper can survive well. And Stalker's Assassin Strike becomes less useful at high level.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I've been thinking the same thing. My spines/nin is 48 now (rolled in I6, slotted w/ generics) and has been played through a lot of Issues. Stalkers are amazingly effective compared to where they used to be, but the damage/survivability still feels off. I don't really want them to become scrappers with stealth - being 'squishier' is ok.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Personally, I'd leave the survivability where it is, and boost the damage and melee damage modifier. This affects solo play as well as team play...
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Perhaps an increase in damage modifier combined with a (high) cap on AS damage to keep that one attack from getting ridiculous? Not suggesting that AS be gimped or nerfed here - its just that if regular damage is buffed to decent levels AS will be nuts.
[Edit: Something also feels off with the way Hide works. It's too slow. I'm not arguing that we should be made into scrappers, but 10 seconds before we can leverage one of our main damage abilities (controlled crits) is way too long in this game. Perhaps the mechanics of Hide could be adjusted (PvE) so we could actually *use* those controlled crits more than once (or twice with Placate) in a fight. That might alleviate the need for a global damage buff.]
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I too, would appreciate a damage buff. As the Scrapper/Brute rebalance was based upon the exchange of survivability for damage, I would like the damage that we seem to be missing. I do differ with you, in that I think AS numbers (in PvE) should be 'nuts'.
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Originally Posted by Greyhame
I've been thinking the same thing. My spines/nin is 48 now (rolled in I6, slotted w/ generics) and has been played through a lot of Issues. Stalkers are amazingly effective compared to where they used to be, but the damage/survivability still feels off. I don't really want them to become scrappers with stealth - being 'squishier' is ok.
Perhaps an increase in damage modifier combined with a (high) cap on AS damage to keep that one attack from getting ridiculous? Not suggesting that AS be gimped or nerfed here - its just that if regular damage is buffed to decent levels AS will be nuts. |
After reading through more of this thread, I'm leaning towards a mechanics fix over a straight damage buff. Both Starsman and Samuel Tow (quoted here) have the right general idea:
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That would make Stalkers fun and distinctly unique.
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I'm actually sort of kind of still opposed to a straight-up base damage increase, and not because I don't want Stalkers to deal more damage than Scrappers. Rightly, they should. I'm more opposed to it because I don't want Stalkers to deal more damage than Scrappers by out-scrapping them. There's the key difference here. Stalkers, in my opinion, should be allowed to use hiding in the middle of a heated battlefield much more easily, allowing them to gain overall higher damage through proper use of hidden criticals. |
Ice Melee for stalkers!
Sorry Carry on.
Should get you there. my builds always take caltrops in the 20s too
(after issue 19 Smoke Flash too, can't wait).
Ninjitsu is THE premier stalker Secondary imo.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!