I agree with you. I'd prefer to see more damage from a stalker, not more survivability. More HP / defences will just make them more like a scrapper, whereas I'd prefer them to play more like a blapper: kill super fast, or die trying. 
This may not be the place but what if the team crit buff changed from..
number of players around the stalker to..
number of players the target has in their aggro list to make it more in line with the concept of the crits (stalker deals more damage because target is distracted).
Wouldn't this solve the range thing implicitly?
Personally, if possible, I would give a higher crit rate, but only give a crit bonus if the stalker is not the target's target.
1.3 damage modifier. Same as I said elsewhere.
If a stalker is going to placate a boss and have it turn and try to kill my corruptor he dam well better put it down before it reaches me!
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The old sidekick range was 225 feet which I actually think is too big though I may be in the minority in that opinion. 60-100 feet works fine. It's a subtle way to limit "scouting the map" when not needed and better fits to the concept of using your team as a distraction. Also, while there should be a HP cap raise, I more heavily favor giving them more damage as opposed to making them more survivable. My other suggestions would be:|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Some starter ideas that I've seen thrown around:
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- Allow the 25% chance to Terrorize to have it's probability increased with the team crit buff.
- Allow the chance to Terrorize to proc regardless of if the enemy survives.
- Give Assassin's Strike a small (5%?) -resistance and/or -regen debuff that does not stack from the same caster but will stack from different attackers.
- Give Placate a 25% chance to confuse.
- Move Tankers and Stalkers onto the same tier of Leadership buffs as Dominators and Masterminds for Maneuvers (from 2.275% Def to 2.625% Def), Assault (from 10.50% Dmg to 11.25% Dmg), Tactics:To Hit (from 7.0% to 7.5%), and Tactics: Perception (from 141.4 at level 14 242.2 at level 50 to 151.5 at level 14 259.5 at level 50)
For the most part the suggestions are with teaming in mind but can be applied to solo play. A better application of the Terrorize effect will help protect the Stalker and their team. Since AS is an ST move that the AT is somewhat built around in a game that favors AOE, it needs a buff to help guarantee it softens up a target, especially a hard target that you can not OHKO. A confuse in Placate is meant to protect squishies when you drop aggro. The Leadership buff is slightly more meant for Tankers but it's a concept of something that the two could bring to the table versus the other melee classes.
However, I think the main thing Stalkers need isn't buff to the AT (though they do need it). The main thing is tweaks to the rest of the game. More enemies with perception buffs (and not enemies that ignore stealth). More missions with sensors like from the mayhem missions or turrets (naturally higher perception). In other words, more reasons to actually be a stealth based AT and to make it so that other ATs using stealth powers aren't marginalizing a Stalker's existence. It's sort of the same problem as [Acrobatics] where the call for its use gets met with "just slot an IO".
The issue with Stalkers is pretty straightforward: they're single-target specialists in a game that by and large favors AoE damage. Spines and Elec Melee help with that somewhat, as they've got decent AoE (and now Kinetic Melee as well, which I think is a good thing), but there's not much that can be done in that respect without really changing the powersets around and that's not something that is going to happen at this stage in the game. It's the same reason certain blast sets are preferred over others. That doesn't mean the sets that are less-preferred are bad (well, there are exceptions), just that they excel at things other than AoE output.
Here are a few potential changes that would help out Stalkers:
* Raise the HP cap to scale 1.2 (cap would raise from 1606 to 1928).
* Raise the damage modifier to 1.125 (same as Scrappers).
* Increase the allowed radius for team-size-based criticals from 30 to 60 feet.
* Increase the damage buff modifier from 0.8 to 1.0 (same as Scrappers).
* Flag the critical portion of Assassin's Strike as unresisted, to aid Stalkers in their primary goal of quickly eliminating single hard targets.
The above changes would mean Stalkers get more survivability through hit points than other "squishy" ATs and would ensure that they are consistently the best single-target damage dealers while not significantly stepping on the toes of Scrappers in the AoE department.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I'm reasonably certain that Castle posted a while back that there isn't going to be any unresisted damage in PvE due to how many things it breaks.|
Originally Posted by macskull
* Flag the critical portion of Assassin's Strike as unresisted, to aid Stalkers in their primary goal of quickly eliminating single hard targets.
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As for the deal with the AoE-centric nature of the game, that's not something I'm even trying to address with this thread - it's far beyond the scope of anything short of COH2. Instead, I was leaning towards making their single-target specialist nature of such an absurd degree that it stands out above the alternatives and provides rapid enough killing of those single targets that they can move on and get several in quick succession to simulate AoE damage.
As for stealthing and the post regarding raising the perception on mobs, I don't see it being likely to help, nor do I think that a backhanded nerf to "stealth" in general is the way to help Stalkers. Other ATs can stealth - via IOs, pool powers, or simply running past the mobs because you lose aggro before they can kill you. And Stalkers don't even get the "best stealth" - while Superior Invisibility has an endurance cost associated with it, it doesn't suppress when attacking, provides a higher level of PvE stealth (200' vs 150'), and would provide more PvP stealth if the Controller stealth cap was higher (1000' vs 500'). To quote someone playing their Ill/Rad redside on beta earlier tonight, "I'm like a Stalker, only useful". And honestly, since the Stealth IO stacks with itself, if you load fairly quickly you can just exit and re-enter for a 90' stealth radius on just the IO (ie, no other powers) for most mission lengths.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Since this thread is for pitching ideas, here's one that came to me after reading what was here so far...
*Change Assassination so when not hidden the chance to land a critical hit is increased to 15% + 5% per teammate within 60'
*Add an addition feature (for the sake of this thread) called Precision Attack, which will add a 20% chance to do an additional 50% of the attacks base damage of any single target attack when not hidden
*Increase both the chance to hit and the duration of the Terrorize on an AS.
That's all i got so far, but I like the idea of a stalker being a single target melee character delivering burst damage. By increasing the chance to do additional damage per target and locking down the rest of the mob for longer, you wouldn't need to increase the base HP or increase it's cap...after all the best defense is a good offense and the mob can't damage you if they're all dead or not moving.
How about:
* Buff to Accuracy while teamed - enemy is distracted, leaving their back open
* AS gives a defense debuff (surprised, shocked, easier to hit) to the target
* AS gives a resistance debuff (weak spot shown/made) to the target
Just a thought. I've always liked to use stalkers as a surgical removal tool. If stalkers could effectively "mark" a target that'd be pretty cool, I think.
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This. I'd prefere to just seem them become even more of a ST killer. Yes, this would help the AOE sets as well, but put them up there! Give em Scrapper DMG mod and Scrapper DMG Buff Mods...then let them get on a team and crit like mad!
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
As for the deal with the AoE-centric nature of the game, that's not something I'm even trying to address with this thread - it's far beyond the scope of anything short of COH2. Instead, I was leaning towards making their single-target specialist nature of such an absurd degree that it stands out above the alternatives and provides rapid enough killing of those single targets that they can move on and get several in quick succession to simulate AoE damage.
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The BrandX Collection
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Katana and Broadsword have a cone that deals more damage at almost half the recharge. Spine Burst is bigger and deals a bit more damage for only one second longer recharge. Burst is, unfortunately, kinda crap.|
Originally Posted by macskull
they've got decent AoE (and now Kinetic Melee as well, which I think is a good thing)
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More on Burst
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PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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My opinion|
Originally Posted by macskull
* Raise the HP cap to scale 1.2 (cap would raise from 1606 to 1928). * Raise the damage modifier to 1.125 (same as Scrappers). * Increase the allowed radius for team-size-based criticals from 30 to 60 feet. * Increase the damage buff modifier from 0.8 to 1.0 (same as Scrappers). * Flag the critical portion of Assassin's Strike as unresisted, to aid Stalkers in their primary goal of quickly eliminating single hard targets. |
* Keep the HP cap at 1606 (Lowest of all melee AT's)
* Raise the damage modifier to 1.25 (highest of all melee AT's)
* Increase the allowed radius for team-size-based criticals from 30 to 60 feet. (Agreed 100%)
* Increase the damage buff modifier from 0.8 to 1.0 (same as Scrappers). (Agreed 100%)
There has to be a trade off for having the lowest HP and that is having the highest damage output. I think the max damage should be raised from 500% to 675% to exceed the new brute max damage.
lvl 50 - Elec/WP/Mu Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - Dark/EA/Soul Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - EM/Nin/Soul Mastery Stalker
New Toons
lvl 21 - StJ/WP Stalker
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I agree with this.
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Originally Posted by Aumakua
My opinion
* Keep the HP cap at 1606 (Lowest of all melee AT's) * Raise the damage modifier to 1.25 (highest of all melee AT's) * Increase the allowed radius for team-size-based criticals from 30 to 60 feet. (Agreed 100%) * Increase the damage buff modifier from 0.8 to 1.0 (same as Scrappers). (Agreed 100%) There has to be a trade off for having the lowest HP and that is having the highest damage output. I think the max damage should be raised from 500% to 675% to exceed the new brute max damage. |
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I see no reason not to allow great distance on the team member crit rate multiplier. Just link it to line of sight.
That way if a stalker wants to bugger off and do their own thing they will not benefit, but if they fight reasonably close to the team and are (thematically) always within eyesight to swoop in and take advantage of a teammate opening up a foe, then they should gain the extra damage.
Here is what I would do
Increase melee damage to 1.3 and blasters as well to the same number
Increase damage buff modifier to 1.25 and blasters to the same number
Increase the team crit buff range to the old sidekick range such that it limit the stalkers who wander off. Think of it is re-training the general population of stalkers.
Change demoralize pet that spawns during an AS to jump to another live target if the first target dies before it spawns. Make it go to the next target in range.
No change in base health but increase health cap just enough so that unslotted powers like HPT and Dull pain actually make a difference.
I dont think moving the powers back into the powerset themselves would be breaking the cottage rule, if anything it would be you adding a bathroom where a closet used to be. Giving them back the missing powers would help alot in creating parity in the powersets. Furthermore given that there is technology now to supress offensive toggles (see patch notes for stalker dark armor changes) I see no reason why this couldnt be done.
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Originally Posted by Aumakua
My opinion
* Keep the HP cap at 1606 (Lowest of all melee AT's) * Raise the damage modifier to 1.25 (highest of all melee AT's) * Increase the allowed radius for team-size-based criticals from 30 to 60 feet. (Agreed 100%) * Increase the damage buff modifier from 0.8 to 1.0 (same as Scrappers). (Agreed 100%) There has to be a trade off for having the lowest HP and that is having the highest damage output. I think the max damage should be raised from 500% to 675% to exceed the new brute max damage. |
I think raising both the damage modifier AND the damage cap might be a bit too much.
Otherwise, I like the other 4 suggestions very much (the bullet points)
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A higher damage cap isnt going to make that big of a difference unless there are several kins on the team or a stalker fills his tray with nothing but red skittles. Given how wide open teaming combinations are gonna be after GR I dont see that many kins congregating to one team like that.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I think raising both the damage modifier AND the damage cap might be a bit too much.
Otherwise, I like the other 4 suggestions very much (the bullet points) |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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* Keep the HP cap at 1606 (Lowest of all melee AT's) * Raise the damage modifier to 1.25 (highest of all melee AT's) * Increase the allowed radius for team-size-based criticals from 30 to 60 feet. (Agreed 100%) * Increase the damage buff modifier from 0.8 to 1.0 (same as Scrappers). (Agreed 100%) There has to be a trade off for having the lowest HP and that is having the highest damage output. I think the max damage should be raised from 500% to 675% to exceed the new brute max damage. |
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I think raising both the damage modifier AND the damage cap might be a bit too much.
Otherwise, I like the other 4 suggestions very much (the bullet points) |
I am trying to look at this from a zone PvP point of view and since everything is switching sides PvP is going to be way different. Corruptors cross buffing with Defenders, Blasters teamed with Stalkers, Tankers teamed with Masterminds, OMG... my head hurts
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This. |
Originally Posted by macskull
* Flag the critical portion of Assassin's Strike as unresisted, to aid Stalkers in their primary goal of quickly eliminating single hard targets.
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And, for that matter: in lieu of raising the damage/damage buff modifier, why not make crit damage unresisted for every stalker attack?
Why? This lets stalkers focus on what stalkers were made for: superior damage through criticals. The damage is less than scrappers on average when scrapping solo, and could actually (possibly only in my mind - numbers are my nemesis) out-damage scrappers on the criticals. It would make stalkers do vastly more damage on teams (especially with the critical radius expanded) and would give them the ability to score unresisted damage after the placate on their second target. (which, in my case, is frequently a second longbow warden).
Stalkers do not need help in the survivability department.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Because if they did this you would be able to kill things that werent meant to die. For instance civilians in the mayhem missions would be killable. Hamidon would be trivial with alot of stalkers. I think they would have to address the unkillable or rebalance the things that are supposed to be hard due to resistance.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
This.
And, for that matter: in lieu of raising the damage/damage buff modifier, why not make crit damage unresisted for every stalker attack? Why? This lets stalkers focus on what stalkers were made for: superior damage through criticals. The damage is less than scrappers on average when scrapping solo, and could actually (possibly only in my mind - numbers are my nemesis) out-damage scrappers on the criticals. It would make stalkers do vastly more damage on teams (especially with the critical radius expanded) and would give them the ability to score unresisted damage after the placate on their second target. (which, in my case, is frequently a second longbow warden). Stalkers do not need help in the survivability department. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
If the hitpoints and cap isn't going to be raised, Stalkers need Hide to passively add something like 20% extra resist all because the resistance secondaries scale horribly for Stalkers and that is a direct result of their low hitpoints (which indirectly translates into resists). It's not Ninjitsu or SR that gives everyone the impression that Stalkers are squishy.
Also, please don't increase their damage mods more than Scrappers unless u want PvP zones to turn into a Stalker vs. Stalker zone.
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Marco!|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
...Stalker vs. Stalker zone.
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...........................Polo!
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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lmao!!!
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Originally Posted by smiling_joe
marco!
...........................polo! |
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I thought side switching already guaranteed this to happen? |
Originally Posted by tarrantm
Also, please don't increase their damage mods more than Scrappers unless u want PvP zones to turn into a Stalker vs. Stalker zone. |
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Yes, I'm having flashbacks to PvP basically turning into stealther wars like in all the other MMOs I've played. Invisibility + Highest damage output = no reason to play any other toon in PvP.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I thought side switching already guaranteed this to happen?
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First, let me clarify my personal position on this: I feel that Stalkers are fine currently on live, and while there is a numerical discrepancy I found it within tolerance for what I'd call "balanced" when compared to other melee ATs. I've posted this publicly, and still stand by what I said in each of those threads.
However, I also felt the same about Brutes and Scrappers, and Brutes had their Fury generation tweaked in order to lower their damage, to differentiate between the two ATs. Yet Stalkers, who have a far larger numerical gap in survivability compared to Scrappers than the difference between Scrappers and Brutes, were left untouched. So, since the ideal now is "less survivability == more damage", it seems like it's time for Stalkers to receive another buff.
Castle has said here that there isn't time for changes to the AT prior to Going Rogue, and that he's aware of the situation.
Yes, I am aware that there is a thread on the non-beta section about "what changes do Stalkers need to be acceptable in teams" - I've posted in it - but this thread has two purposes that differ from that one: first, this thread assumes that a change will happen based on posts in the beta section and seeks to provide direct feedback as to what that change should be; and second, the other thread asks the wrong question - Stalkers are already acceptable to teams, this thread is about what changes should be made to make them more numerically balanced when compared to other melee ATs.
So now is the time to compile suggestions - what do you, as a Stalker player (or potential Stalker player), feel should happen to address the discrepancy between Stalker survivability and damage when compared to Scrapper survivability and damage? Why do I use Scrappers? Because that's the melee AT that was left alone with the changes to Going Rogue.
Some starter ideas that I've seen thrown around:
At this point, I think the suggestion of providing Hide as an inherent and adding in the lost power in each secondary is just wishful thinking, so I didn't include it.
Personally, I'd leave the survivability where it is, and boost the damage and melee damage modifier. This affects solo play as well as team play, and allows them to be the "single-target king" of the melee ATs - which is a fairly weak place to be in the first place given that so much of team play is based upon AoE burst damage. However, high enough ST damage and fast target switching lets you emulate AoE damage reasonably well, and only 3 Stalker primaries are entirely single-target.
So, what would you like to see done?